A simple question, really.

[REBoyce]

To any self-affirmed non-calvinist currently playing on the forum:

Do you believe that God is powerful enough to bring all men, women, and children to faith in Christ without doing harm to their free will?

If you do believe that He is, would you please tell us your reasoning for perhaps why God hasn't done so?

Thanks for your time. Interested in your response!

 

[REBoyce]

To any self-affirmed non-calvinist currently playing on the forum:

Do you believe that God is powerful enough to bring all men, women, and children to faith in Christ without doing harm to their free will?

If you do believe that He is, would you please tell us your reasoning for perhaps why God hasn't done so?

Thanks for your time. Interested in your response!

Welcome to this iteration of the FFF! Are you "Budding Theologian" from the other forum?

Yes...but a little older, slightly less arrogant.

At times, haha!

 

[REBoyce]

Anyone?

 

[christundivided]

Your question is silly....

The issue has never been whether God can do anything. The issues is what does God choose to do. It is a by gone conclusion that God has never done everything He can do. God isn't a little child seeking to do anything and everything He can do. The measure of Divinity has always included what God chooses NOT to do. Philosophically speaking if God did everything He could do.... then you're really removing the ability to chose from God. Choice, at times, is as much about inaction as action.

If want to know why a non Calvinist might say to the such a question as to why he hasn't done something.... then by all means.... take the default answer every Calvinist uses....

It's the good pleasure if His will.

I personally would say that God desire in creation was to create a people that had absolute authority to make their own choices. As such, God would never transgress a man's own self will in choice.

 

[REBoyce]

To my question, "Do you believe that God is powerful enough to bring all men, women, and children to faith in Christ without doing harm to their free will?" it seems that your answer is yes.

In response to "why," it seems that your response is, "It's the good pleasure if His will."


Is this an accurate summation of your response?

If not, please clarify for me.

If it is, thanks for answering!

It's refreshing to see a non-calvinist who is willing to affirm that God's greatest desire isn't the salvation of the human race. I'm curious as to why you elevate God's desire in granting us autonomy over His desire to save us. I'm all ears if you'd like to elaborate?

If not, that's cool. Thanks for addressing the OP.

 

[christundivided]

To my question, "Do you believe that God is powerful enough to bring all men, women, and children to faith in Christ without doing harm to their free will?" it seems that your answer is yes.

In response to "why," it seems that your response is, "It's the good pleasure if His will."


Is this an accurate summation of your response?

If not, please clarify for me.

If it is, thanks for answering!

It's refreshing to see a non-calvinist who is willing to affirm that God's greatest desire isn't the salvation of the human race. I'm curious as to why you elevate God's desire in granting us autonomy over His desire to save us. I'm all ears if you'd like to elaborate?

If not, that's cool. Thanks for addressing the OP.

Funny... seems you're intent on controlling this discussion. Why did you ignore the vast majority of what I wrote?  I already know the answer..... typical dishonest Calvinist tactics...

I'll answer your question if you answer mine???

To answer your question....

What good is a "forced relationship"? Are you married? How would you feel tomorrow if your wife told you that the only reason she married you......was because she felt as if she had no choice in the matter?

My question is why do Calvinist believe they must present God as a tyrant who only cares about His own desires? An all powerful God who arbitrarily picks the winners and losers?

 

[subllibrm]

My question is why do Calvinist believe they must present God as a tyrant who only cares about His own desires? An all powerful God who arbitrarily picks the winners and losers?

Since that is not what I believe I cannot answer your question. But truth be told it is just about as silly as the one in the OP.

 

[REBoyce]

To my question, "Do you believe that God is powerful enough to bring all men, women, and children to faith in Christ without doing harm to their free will?" it seems that your answer is yes.

In response to "why," it seems that your response is, "It's the good pleasure if His will."


Is this an accurate summation of your response?

If not, please clarify for me.

If it is, thanks for answering!

It's refreshing to see a non-calvinist who is willing to affirm that God's greatest desire isn't the salvation of the human race. I'm curious as to why you elevate God's desire in granting us autonomy over His desire to save us. I'm all ears if you'd like to elaborate?

If not, that's cool. Thanks for addressing the OP.

Funny... seems you're intent on controlling this discussion. Why did you ignore the vast majority of what I wrote?  I already know the answer..... typical dishonest Calvinist tactics...

I'll answer your question if you answer mine???

To answer your question....

What good is a "forced relationship"? Are you married? How would you feel tomorrow if your wife told you that the only reason she married you......was because she felt as if she had no choice in the matter?

My question is why do Calvinist believe they must present God as a tyrant who only cares about His own desires? An all powerful God who arbitrarily picks the winners and losers?

"Controlling the conversation"? Amigo, I'm simply trying to ensure that I'm properly understanding your side of it!

I chose not to respond to much of what you wrote because there was no inherent question. It was theological opinion you voiced that, though I don't share, I saw no need to argue against.

"I'll answer your question if you answer mine???"

You never asked me a question, my friend. Not sure what's got you wound up, but for me to leave unasked questioned unanswered only to receive your "typical dishonest Calvinist tactics" comment, I'd say you appear to have a pretty large axe to grind.

You mention "forced" relationships, but I think you forget the OP. Do you or do you not believe that God could have created a universe such that all mankind would WILLINGLY enter into a relationship with God through the atoning work of Christ?

No biblical Calvinist would every affirm that God forces anyone into a relationship- be it with Him or Satan.

Nor would a Calvinist every say that anything God does is arbitrary. I dislike your straw men as much as you do, lol.

As to your question, "why do Calvinist believe they must present God as a tyrant who only cares about His own desires?" let me offer a thought:

You assume that God caring most about His desires makes Him a tyrant. Do you have any Biblical reason to say this? Do you have a Biblical argument against the idea of God doing everything He most wants to? The Psalmist is clear that God does everything that pleases Him (see 115:3 and 135:6). This doesn't make Him a tyrant. It makes Him a sovereign God. Unless you would argue that God doesn't achieve that which He most desires?

 

[christundivided]

"Controlling the conversation"? Amigo, I'm simply trying to ensure that I'm properly understanding your side of it!

I seriously doubt it.

You never asked me a question, my friend. Not sure what's got you wound up, but for me to leave unasked questioned unanswered only to receive your "typical dishonest Calvinist tactics" comment, I'd say you appear to have a pretty large axe to grind.

My reference to dishonest tactics.... was in response to your choice to ignore what I wrote. I don't have an axe to grind. I've never meet a single Calvinist that would last more than a few posts with me. I refuse to let a Calvinist control the conversation. I'm not going let you control this one. I a big boy. I know your tactics. Once you get past the childish reasoning..... there really isn't much to them. If you want to be serious, then when I answer your question.... the allow me to ask one myself. I will say that generally consider Calvinist that believe in Irresistible Grace.....heretics. Deceivers. Wretched people. So... there is no need to call me friend. I'm not your friend.

You mention "forced" relationships, but I think you forget the OP. Do you or do you not believe that God could have created a universe such that all mankind would WILLINGLY enter into a relationship with God through the atoning work of Christ?

Do you believe in Irresistible Grace? This is exactly what irresistible teaches. Parse the words ever how you like. It means the exact same thing.

I see no difference in the scenario you presented. Direct or indirectly influencing an absolute outcome....results in coercion. Plain and simple... just like you like it....

God could have made Barack Obama the best President that ever lived.... Obviously he didn't.

No biblical Calvinist would every affirm that God forces anyone into a relationship- be it with Him or Satan.

Liar.... This is exactly what Irresistible Grace teaches.... or do you refuse to recognize the word "overcome" in every standard definition of IG...

Nor would a Calvinist every say that anything God does is arbitrary. I dislike your straw men as much as you do, lol.

I never said it was arbitrary to God. Never. It is arbitrary to man that God would predestine one man to Hell and an identical man to Heaven. I expect to read "The good pleasure of His will any moment.....

You assume that God caring most about His desires makes Him a tyrant. Do you have any Biblical reason to say this? Do you have a Biblical argument against the idea of God doing everything He most wants to? The Psalmist is clear that God does everything that pleases Him (see 115:3 and 135:6). This doesn't make Him a tyrant. It makes Him a sovereign God. Unless you would argue that God doesn't achieve that which He most desires?

Of course God doesn't achieve everything He desires. Sovereignty doesn't anything to do with this. It pleased God to empower man to do what man desires. Often man does things that are contrary to His desire. Have you ever heard of the word Judgement? I hope you realize the Judgment is where God judges mankind for doing things contrary to a His desire.....

 

[christundivided]

My question is why do Calvinist believe they must present God as a tyrant who only cares about His own desires? An all powerful God who arbitrarily picks the winners and losers?

Since that is not what I believe I cannot answer your question. But truth be told it is just about as silly as the one in the OP.

My point exactly....

Either way....

By your belief.....Just why does God elect one to save and the other damn?

Is it just the standard answer about the "Good pleasure of His will"????

 

[Lone Ranger]

My question is why do Calvinist believe they must present God as a tyrant who only cares about His own desires? An all powerful God who arbitrarily picks the winners and losers?

Since that is not what I believe I cannot answer your question. But truth be told it is just about as silly as the one in the OP.

My point exactly....

Either way....

By your belief.....Just why does God elect one to save and the other damn?

Is it just the standard answer about the "Good pleasure of His will"????

If you read any good biography of Jonathan Edwards you will read about his uncle who committed suicide because he wanted so much to be saved, but could not because he realized he was not one of God's elect. What a sad commentary on this doctrine!!

I know it will be said "I surely don't believe it to that extreme."  Some people evidently did/do.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]I've never meet a single Calvinist that would last more than a few posts with me. I refuse to let a Calvinist control the conversation. I'm not going let you control this one.[/quote]

In other news, CU is the greatest human that has ever lived. He's also the smartest person alive. He could fly a shuttle while simultaneously performing brain surgery, replacing the engine on an 747, and delivering the greatest speech every given. He is a paragon of virtue, kindness, and humility. Although he didn't die on a cross for you, he did help hold Jesus up there for your sake. Fall at his feet in awe and amazement at how much better than you he is.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]I've never meet a single Calvinist that would last more than a few posts with me. I refuse to let a Calvinist control the conversation. I'm not going let you control this one.

In other news, CU is the greatest human that has ever lived. He's also the smartest person alive. He could fly a shuttle while simultaneously performing brain surgery, replacing the engine on an 747, and delivering the greatest speech every given. He is a paragon of virtue, kindness, and humility. Although he didn't die on a cross for you, he did help hold Jesus up there for your sake. Fall at his feet in awe and amazement at how much better than you he is.
[/quote]

LOL ... so says the man with 49 reds and an ego the size of Texas....

FYI.... I wasn't trying to flaunt anything. Just stating the facts that Calvinist really will not deal with much of anything. The only way they will participate in a conversation is if no one else gets to answer questions and they are the only ones that get to talk of the Good Pleasure of God's will. They act like little children endless repeating tired old questions they already know the answer to.....

 

[christundivided]

My question is why do Calvinist believe they must present God as a tyrant who only cares about His own desires? An all powerful God who arbitrarily picks the winners and losers?

Since that is not what I believe I cannot answer your question. But truth be told it is just about as silly as the one in the OP.

My point exactly....

Either way....

By your belief.....Just why does God elect one to save and the other damn?

Is it just the standard answer about the "Good pleasure of His will"????

If you read any good biography of Jonathan Edwards you will read about his uncle who committed suicide because he wanted so much to be saved, but could not because he realized he was not one of God's elect. What a sad commentary on this doctrine!!

I know it will be said "I surely don't believe it to that extreme."  Some people evidently did/do.

I did my Senior Thesis on Jonathan Edwards. He really is a perfect study of brilliant intellect trapped in simplistic arguments. I personally saw a trouble man who put up a myriad of defenses to ease his weary soul.

 

[subllibrm]

Let God be God.

 

[REBoyce]

"Controlling the conversation"? Amigo, I'm simply trying to ensure that I'm properly understanding your side of it!

I seriously doubt it.

You never asked me a question, my friend. Not sure what's got you wound up, but for me to leave unasked questioned unanswered only to receive your "typical dishonest Calvinist tactics" comment, I'd say you appear to have a pretty large axe to grind.

My reference to dishonest tactics.... was in response to your choice to ignore what I wrote. I don't have an axe to grind. I've never meet a single Calvinist that would last more than a few posts with me. I refuse to let a Calvinist control the conversation. I'm not going let you control this one. I a big boy. I know your tactics. Once you get past the childish reasoning..... there really isn't much to them. If you want to be serious, then when I answer your question.... the allow me to ask one myself. I will say that generally consider Calvinist that believe in Irresistible Grace.....heretics. Deceivers. Wretched people. So... there is no need to call me friend. I'm not your friend.

You mention "forced" relationships, but I think you forget the OP. Do you or do you not believe that God could have created a universe such that all mankind would WILLINGLY enter into a relationship with God through the atoning work of Christ?

Do you believe in Irresistible Grace? This is exactly what irresistible teaches. Parse the words ever how you like. It means the exact same thing.

I see no difference in the scenario you presented. Direct or indirectly influencing an absolute outcome....results in coercion. Plain and simple... just like you like it....

God could have made Barack Obama the best President that ever lived.... Obviously he didn't.

No biblical Calvinist would every affirm that God forces anyone into a relationship- be it with Him or Satan.

Liar.... This is exactly what Irresistible Grace teaches.... or do you refuse to recognize the word "overcome" in every standard definition of IG...

Nor would a Calvinist every say that anything God does is arbitrary. I dislike your straw men as much as you do, lol.

I never said it was arbitrary to God. Never. It is arbitrary to man that God would predestine one man to Hell and an identical man to Heaven. I expect to read "The good pleasure of His will any moment.....

You assume that God caring most about His desires makes Him a tyrant. Do you have any Biblical reason to say this? Do you have a Biblical argument against the idea of God doing everything He most wants to? The Psalmist is clear that God does everything that pleases Him (see 115:3 and 135:6). This doesn't make Him a tyrant. It makes Him a sovereign God. Unless you would argue that God doesn't achieve that which He most desires?

Of course God doesn't achieve everything He desires. Sovereignty doesn't anything to do with this. It pleased God to empower man to do what man desires. Often man does things that are contrary to His desire. Have you ever heard of the word Judgement? I hope you realize the Judgment is where God judges mankind for doing things contrary to a His desire.....

CU, what specifically are you wanting me to answer? And please, leave the vitriol out of the post. I doubt you would act like this if we were chatting over coffee. And also, please make it a question or two. Conversations get muddled when there are multiple issues to explore.

Thanks!

 

[subllibrm]

... And please, leave the vitriol out of the post.

Thanks!

Now that right there is funny! 

Unless you were serious.  ??? 
























Okay, it's funny again!  ;D

 

[christundivided]

CU, what specifically are you wanting me to answer? And please, leave the vitriol out of the post. I doubt you would act like this if we were chatting over coffee. And also, please make it a question or two. Conversations get muddled when there are multiple issues to explore.

Thanks!

Do you believe in Irresistible Grace and how does this "fit" with your previous statement of

"No biblical Calvinist would every affirm that God forces anyone into a relationship- be it with Him or Satan. "

 

[christundivided]

... And please, leave the vitriol out of the post.

Thanks!

Now that right there is funny! 

Unless you were serious.  ??? 
























Okay, it's funny again!  ;D

I haven't "cruelly" criticized you in a some time.....  8)

Where does all this "veiled hostility" come with you???

 

[subllibrm]

... And please, leave the vitriol out of the post.

Thanks!

Now that right there is funny! 

Unless you were serious.  ??? 

Okay, it's funny again!  ;D

I haven't "cruelly" criticized you in a some time.....  8)

I have been feeling a little neglected.  :-\

Where does all this "veiled hostility" come with you???

Veiled?!?!? 











;D