Acts 2 or Acts 17?

[ItinerantPreacher]

Someone enlighten this poor soul as to what is wrong with small groups.

Will someone enlighten this poor soul why preaching and SS are out dated but small groups are the way to go.

Thats why I keep asking the question. It seems to be sold on the premise that if it is not new, or hip, or in, it is old, outdated and therefore wrong, and by extension if you are doing something wrong you are ignorant and unenlightened.

Course, that could just be my impression.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And his mission to the Gentiles was outreach. 

In other words, the question "Do You Have an Acts 2 Small Group Ministry in an Acts 17 Culture?" is a silly one, because it's comparing apples to oranges.  A small group ministry is a gathering of members of the body of Christ for mutual edification.  Acts 17 is outreach to unbelievers.  The two have entirely different

WHAT!?

Both passages are about outreach...Acts 2 was outreach to the Jews who had a basic knowledge of and belief in the OT Scriptures.

Acts 17 was outreach to the secular Greek (Hellenistic) culture who had no such knowledge or acceptance of Scripture.

Odd that in Acts 2:40-41 it states that 3000 members of the 'body of Christ' were saved and baptized.

Re-read the blog entry.  He wasn't comparing two outreach passages.  He was probably referring to this in Acts 2:

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Otherwise the following reference to what he found in Acts 2 wouldn't make any sense.  It's not outreach. 

Is your small group ministry designed to operate in the world (or culture)…

where everyone is familiar with the Bible?
where everyone knows the players (i.e., is the Joseph with the amazing technicolor coat the same man as the Joseph who was engaged to Mary?)?
where everyone believes the Bible is more than a religious fairy tale?
where Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus live in another country?
where truth isn’t your truth or my truth and everyone essentially thinks the same things are true?
where there are clear lines between right and wrong?
where sexual orientation is something only mentioned on the national evening news?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Not jumping. 
Just this...

1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:3
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:39
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Seems one may be granted this gift through growth?

The ability to speak/ rightly divide The Word, is, apparently, available to all.
Obviously some are given this gift upfront, be we are all to desire it.

So, I wasnt trying to shift the subject, or run a rabbit trail.

Anishinabe

Exactly.  One by one means there isn't a single pastor/preacher at the center of the group's attention, and everyone else is expected to sit quietly and listen. 

 

[prophet]

Not jumping. 
Just this...

1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:3
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:39
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Seems one may be granted this gift through growth?

The ability to speak/ rightly divide The Word, is, apparently, available to all.
Obviously some are given this gift upfront, be we are all to desire it.

So, I wasnt trying to shift the subject, or run a rabbit trail.

Anishinabe

Exactly.  One by one means there isn't a single pastor/preacher at the center of the group's attention, and everyone else is expected to sit quietly and listen.

Don't forget this:

1Ti 5:19-21
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

There isn't supposed to be one "preferred " elder at all.

Anishinabe

 

[Matthew1323]

I've observed many things more than once.
I've been asked on any number of occasions by our small group leaders about how to deal with one or two members who dominated and killed the small group by their ongoing yammering over around and above the teacher who had done much preparation.

But we don't cancel our groups because of it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Kinda reminds me of our FFF small group forum!   

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Not jumping. 
Just this...

1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:3
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:39
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Seems one may be granted this gift through growth?

The ability to speak/ rightly divide The Word, is, apparently, available to all.
Obviously some are given this gift upfront, be we are all to desire it.

So, I wasnt trying to shift the subject, or run a rabbit trail.

Anishinabe

Exactly.  One by one means there isn't a single pastor/preacher at the center of the group's attention, and everyone else is expected to sit quietly and listen.

You clearly missed verse 27 of the same chapter

1 Corinthians 14:27  If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Seems not everyone was doing the talking, as a matter of fact only the men were supposed to speak
1 Corinthians 14:34-35  Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Allowance was made for two, at the most three. (see above0

And because they did things the way you do things, Paul said, quit it,
1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

Pays to read the scripture in context.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Not jumping. 
Just this...

1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:3
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:39
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Seems one may be granted this gift through growth?

The ability to speak/ rightly divide The Word, is, apparently, available to all.
Obviously some are given this gift upfront, be we are all to desire it.

So, I wasnt trying to shift the subject, or run a rabbit trail.

Anishinabe

Exactly.  One by one means there isn't a single pastor/preacher at the center of the group's attention, and everyone else is expected to sit quietly and listen.

You clearly missed verse 27 of the same chapter

1 Corinthians 14:27  If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Seems not everyone was doing the talking, as a matter of fact only the men were supposed to speak
1 Corinthians 14:34-35  Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Allowance was made for two, at the most three. (see above0

And because they did things the way you do things, Paul said, quit it,
1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

Pays to read the scripture in context.

You clearly missed what I highlighted in bold.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Not jumping. 
Just this...

1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:3
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:39
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Seems one may be granted this gift through growth?

The ability to speak/ rightly divide The Word, is, apparently, available to all.
Obviously some are given this gift upfront, be we are all to desire it.

So, I wasnt trying to shift the subject, or run a rabbit trail.

Anishinabe

Exactly.  One by one means there isn't a single pastor/preacher at the center of the group's attention, and everyone else is expected to sit quietly and listen.

You clearly missed verse 27 of the same chapter

1 Corinthians 14:27  If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Seems not everyone was doing the talking, as a matter of fact only the men were supposed to speak
1 Corinthians 14:34-35  Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Allowance was made for two, at the most three. (see above0

And because they did things the way you do things, Paul said, quit it,
1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

Pays to read the scripture in context.

You clearly missed what I highlighted in bold.

Not at all. This passage is clearly to set order in the church.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Not at all. This passage is clearly to set order in the church.

You're implying it's about general order.  It was specifically about the disorder caused by people speaking in tongues, often on top of one another, and without anyone to interpret. 

As if it matters to you, anyway.  I think it's safe to assume your church is at least 2 speakers short of that point of order. 

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Not at all. This passage is clearly to set order in the church.

You're implying it's about general order.  It was specifically about the disorder caused by people speaking in tongues, often on top of one another, and without anyone to interpret. 

As if it matters to you, anyway.  I think it's safe to assume your church is at least 2 speakers short of that point of order.

No, we have those who teach. We just don't open the floor up to anyone with an opinion. Question are fine, if they are decent and in order. We stay on point. If we are going to discuss spiritual gifts, we are not going to read two verses, them have someone say "but what about prophecy?" and then read two verses on that then have someone say "but what about healing?" and so on and so on. Nor do we tolerate someone jumping up in the middle of the service and trying to outspeak the speaker.

You can do it any way you want and call it anything you want, we do it this way and call it "decently and in order"

 

[lnf]

Rightly or wrongly, (Ha, Ha...probably wrongly!) I think of small groups as being in addition to Sunday School.  I know in my brother's case (my sole point of reference) his small group met outside of regular church service times at individual homes. 

Whether or not this is the standard for small groups, I can see the value of such a model. 

 

[prophet]

Let a man begin to interact with God, and His Word, and give him no setting to share what the Spirit has guided him to learn, with his new found family, and you will reap the consequences.
Likewise, if you allow him...

Anishinabe

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Let a man begin to interact with God, and His Word, and give him no setting to share what the Spirit has guided him to learn, with his new found family, and you will reap the consequences.
Likewise, if you allow him...

Anishinabe

Cryptic but no basis in scripture

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

And his mission to the Gentiles was outreach. 

In other words, the question "Do You Have an Acts 2 Small Group Ministry in an Acts 17 Culture?" is a silly one, because it's comparing apples to oranges.  A small group ministry is a gathering of members of the body of Christ for mutual edification.  Acts 17 is outreach to unbelievers.  The two have entirely different

WHAT!?

Both passages are about outreach...Acts 2 was outreach to the Jews who had a basic knowledge of and belief in the OT Scriptures.

Acts 17 was outreach to the secular Greek (Hellenistic) culture who had no such knowledge or acceptance of Scripture.

Odd that in Acts 2:40-41 it states that 3000 members of the 'body of Christ' were saved and baptized.

Re-read the blog entry.  He wasn't comparing two outreach passages.  He was probably referring to this in Acts 2:

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Otherwise the following reference to what he found in Acts 2 wouldn't make any sense.  It's not outreach. 

Is your small group ministry designed to operate in the world (or culture)…

where everyone is familiar with the Bible?
where everyone knows the players (i.e., is the Joseph with the amazing technicolor coat the same man as the Joseph who was engaged to Mary?)?
where everyone believes the Bible is more than a religious fairy tale?
where Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus live in another country?
where truth isn’t your truth or my truth and everyone essentially thinks the same things are true?
where there are clear lines between right and wrong?
where sexual orientation is something only mentioned on the national evening news?

No, he was referring to the church in this culture.
This is a recurring theme among him and others in the contemporary movement.

Acts 2, Peters sermon at Pentecost was an evangelistic sermon aimed at the Jews (DUH), who were familiar with the OT Scripture, including the prophecies concerning Messiah. At the conclusion 3000 we're saved and baptized! Again, DUH!

Acts 17 is Paul's sermon to the secular hellenists who knew nothing about OT Scripture as compared to the Jews. THAT was...is the point of the blog entry....with the goal of rebuking churches who still had an Acts 2 mentality in an Acts 17 culture.

DUH! 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Not jumping. 
Just this...

1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:3
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:39
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Seems one may be granted this gift through growth?

The ability to speak/ rightly divide The Word, is, apparently, available to all.
Obviously some are given this gift upfront, be we are all to desire it.

So, I wasnt trying to shift the subject, or run a rabbit trail.

Anishinabe

Exactly.  One by one means there isn't a single pastor/preacher at the center of the group's attention, and everyone else is expected to sit quietly and listen.

That sounds wonderful and exciting....not!
But it has no basis in Scripture as the norm in organized worship services.

It is clear thar their were Pastors and teachers who had the gift and responsibility for preaching and teaching! Not that there is anything wrong with 'discussion' but it is NOT the prescribed NT order of worship....which a blind man should be able to see!

But those who can, do...those who can't criticize those who do....sometimes around the kitchen table with their wife, kids and maybe their dog or cat!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Let a man begin to interact with God, and His Word, and give him no setting to share what the Spirit has guided him to learn, with his new found family, and you will reap the consequences.
Likewise, if you allow him...

Anishinabe

Cryptic but no basis in scripture

Make that NO basis in scripture. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]That sounds wonderful and exciting....not![/quote]

The 90s called.  They want their cheesy phrase back. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]That sounds wonderful and exciting....not!

The 90s called.  They want their cheesy phrase back. 
[/quote]

Ashley Furniture called. They want their kitchen table back...or a payment!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Not jumping. 
Just this...

1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:3
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:39
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Seems one may be granted this gift through growth?

The ability to speak/ rightly divide The Word, is, apparently, available to all.
Obviously some are given this gift upfront, be we are all to desire it.

So, I wasnt trying to shift the subject, or run a rabbit trail.

Anishinabe

Exactly.  One by one means there isn't a single pastor/preacher at the center of the group's attention, and everyone else is expected to sit quietly and listen.

That sounds wonderful and exciting....not!
But it has no basis in Scripture as the norm in organized worship services.

It is clear thar their were Pastors and teachers who had the gift and responsibility for preaching and teaching! Not that there is anything wrong with 'discussion' but it is NOT the prescribed NT order of worship....which a blind man should be able to see!

But those who can, do...those who can't criticize those who do....sometimes around the kitchen table with their wife, kids and maybe their dog or cat!

I see no basis in scripture for a prescribed order of organized "worship service" where people gather to be a pew-warming audience for a single pastor preaching for an hour. 

In my opinion, anyone who interprets the Bible that way shouldn't really be teaching anyone.  They have very little understanding of what the Bible says.  Maybe that's why they require the pew-sitters to just keep their mouths shut. 

It makes me think of this:

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Not jumping. 
Just this...

1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:3
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:39
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Seems one may be granted this gift through growth?

The ability to speak/ rightly divide The Word, is, apparently, available to all.
Obviously some are given this gift upfront, be we are all to desire it.

So, I wasnt trying to shift the subject, or run a rabbit trail.

Anishinabe

Exactly.  One by one means there isn't a single pastor/preacher at the center of the group's attention, and everyone else is expected to sit quietly and listen.

That sounds wonderful and exciting....not!
But it has no basis in Scripture as the norm in organized worship services.

It is clear thar their were Pastors and teachers who had the gift and responsibility for preaching and teaching! Not that there is anything wrong with 'discussion' but it is NOT the prescribed NT order of worship....which a blind man should be able to see!

But those who can, do...those who can't criticize those who do....sometimes around the kitchen table with their wife, kids and maybe their dog or cat!

I see no basis in scripture for a prescribed order of organized "worship service" where people gather to be a pew-warming audience for a single pastor preaching for an hour. 

In my opinion, anyone who interprets the Bible that way shouldn't really be teaching anyone.  They have very little understanding of what the Bible says.  Maybe that's why they require the pew-sitters to just keep their mouths shut. 

It makes me think of this:

In my opinion, those who just ignore the Bible because it doesn't confirm what their circumstances have forced them to practice shouldn't be leading a group larger than the number that can fit around their kitchen table.