Do you have exegetical reasons why CCM is wrong? Please share with us.
Against CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture, alone.
- Thread starter FSSL
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2012
- Messages
- 11,064
- Reaction score
- 2,150
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
aleshanee said:
Is CCM "a corrupted method of delivery"? That is what needs to be proven.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2012
- Messages
- 4,013
- Reaction score
- 8
- Points
- 38
aleshanee said:
Sinful man corrupts everything he touches.
Purity and sinless perfection can not be achieved this side of heaven.
Therefore all music performed by sinful man has some measure of corruption in it intrinsically.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2012
- Messages
- 7,797
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
[quote author=aleshanee]...but does that mean he should just go ahead and pick up something corrupted to begin with and offer it as an expression of worship to God?[/quote]
Paul didn't seem to have a problem doing exactly that.
[quote author=aleshanee]does the bible say nothing about making an offering to God out of something previously sacrificed to idols?[/quote]
Yes, it does.
Present your bodies as a living sacrifice...
Paul didn't seem to have a problem doing exactly that.
[quote author=aleshanee]does the bible say nothing about making an offering to God out of something previously sacrificed to idols?[/quote]
Yes, it does.
Present your bodies as a living sacrifice...
I have no scriptural problem with CCM at all. My issue with it is musical: it doesn't rock hard enough. Some of it is too close to "elevator music", which I loathe, purely on esthetic grounds. And yet, there is still quite a bit of CCM that I like.
And yet... I also don't prefer CCM at worship music. I am of liturgical persuasion, and that's part of the reason I switched to Episcopalutheran.
And yet... I also don't prefer CCM at worship music. I am of liturgical persuasion, and that's part of the reason I switched to Episcopalutheran.
rsc2a said:
Paul didn't seem to have a problem doing exactly that.
[quote author=aleshanee]does the bible say nothing about making an offering to God out of something previously sacrificed to idols?[/quote]
Yes, it does.
Present your bodies as a living sacrifice...
[/quote]
rsc2a, you make a valid point, but perhaps forgot to consider an important distinction...like Paul, we have been washed white as snow.
Aleshanee makes a valid point. CCM cannot claim that same washing from its rock and roll roots.
I enjoy CCM. I'm listening to it right now. But I'm also not pretending to be offering it up as a sacrifice of praise to my Lord. When I lift up my voice to my Lord, I'm not singing the latest CCM song to Him.
Making a blanket judgment on CCM is like making a blanket judgment on IFB churches. There is such a huge variety of it that you almost have to approach it on a case by case basis.
That being said, I'm loathe to like anything that tries to mix the gospel with being hip. I'm of the opinion that when you put the gospel and the culture on the same stage, as often as not, the culture is being worshipped.
To answer the OP, I do not have an exegetical argument for why CCM is wrong.
That being said, I'm loathe to like anything that tries to mix the gospel with being hip. I'm of the opinion that when you put the gospel and the culture on the same stage, as often as not, the culture is being worshipped.
To answer the OP, I do not have an exegetical argument for why CCM is wrong.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2012
- Messages
- 7,797
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
lnf said:
Yes, it does.
Present your bodies as a living sacrifice...
[/quote]
rsc2a, you make a valid point, but perhaps forgot to consider an important distinction...like Paul, we have been washed white as snow.
Aleshanee makes a valid point. CCM cannot claim that same washing from its rock and roll roots. [/quote]
Paul also quoted poetry written to pagan gods, and we now call that Scripture...
[quote author=lnf]I enjoy CCM. I'm listening to it right now. But I'm also not pretending to be offering it up as a sacrifice of praise to my Lord. When I lift up my voice to my Lord, I'm not singing the latest CCM song to Him. [/quote]
I don't see why not. The major error I've seen in the anti-CCM argument thus far is predicated on a false sacred/secular divide that is completely alien to what Scripture actually teaches.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2012
- Messages
- 7,797
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
pastorryanhayden said:
Completely agree.
[quote author=pastorryanhayden]That being said, I'm loathe to like anything that tries to mix the gospel with being hip. I'm of the opinion that when you put the gospel and the culture on the same stage, as often as not, the culture is being worshipped.[/quote]
If the major purpose of the music (or writing or sermon or movie or mode of dress or translation or....) is to 'be hip', then I would say that the motives are at least questionable. If the purpose of the music (or...) is to relay the gospel in a way that speaks to the target audience, I'm all for it. After all, we have four different gospel accounts for a pretty specific reason, to say nothing of the way that Paul changed his approach without compromising the message.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2012
- Messages
- 4,013
- Reaction score
- 8
- Points
- 38
lnf said:
Yes, it does.
Present your bodies as a living sacrifice...
[/quote]
rsc2a, you make a valid point, but perhaps forgot to consider an important distinction...like Paul, we have been washed white as snow.
Aleshanee makes a valid point. CCM cannot claim that same washing from its rock and roll roots.
I enjoy CCM. I'm listening to it right now. But I'm also not pretending to be offering it up as a sacrifice of praise to my Lord. When I lift up my voice to my Lord, I'm not singing the latest CCM song to Him.
[/quote]
rsc2a, you make a valid point, but perhaps forgot to consider an important distinction...like Paul, we have been washed white as snow.
You are correct all Christians are positionally perfect in Christ, but like Paul while we are on this earth we are bound by the flesh that wars against out spirit. We do the things we do not want to do because of the corruption of sin and death that is always with us in our earthly bodies.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Aleshanee makes a valid point. CCM cannot claim that same washing from its rock and roll roots.
No one can claim perfection and freedom from sin and corruption as long as they live in an earthly body.
BTW I do not enjoy CCM, it seems like an inferior form of worship music. If I'm going to listen to R and R I also want the real thing. IMHO
bgwilkinson said:
Church music is based on exactly the same notes, tempo and beat as secular music.
The church has often straightly incorporated secular tunes into hymns. "We Gather Together..." was a common song. It was sung in the streets, at parties, bars and all kinds of events.
Bravo said:
Even among secular "experts" Rock music has had a not to good influence on American young people and our country. A few yrs back a rock group tried to be sued because of a suicide . It's one of the leading causes of suicide, drug use, and pre-marital sex among it's young people {the list can most likely go on}.....and if one thinks that Christian rock music has had no effect on the church of God and it's young people since it came on the scene then that one..........has got his head in the sand. But that's just my non-IBF opinion.
Well, goodness!
Let me address each reply to my post:
rsc2a: You have a valid point.
bgwilkinson: I don't get your correlations. How does our position in Christ relate to recognizing "worship-worthy" music?
FSSL: Are you stating that ALL worship music is based upon secular music?
Goodness, gentlemen! You're taking me waaaay outside of my comfort zone. Nobody I know would consider me any sort of music expert...
...but I am enjoying the conversation.
Let me address each reply to my post:
rsc2a: You have a valid point.
bgwilkinson: I don't get your correlations. How does our position in Christ relate to recognizing "worship-worthy" music?
FSSL: Are you stating that ALL worship music is based upon secular music?
Goodness, gentlemen! You're taking me waaaay outside of my comfort zone. Nobody I know would consider me any sort of music expert...
...but I am enjoying the conversation.
Some fail to realize that our most cherished hymns were at one time the CCM of their day.
The other argument of how it is culturally inferior is amusing as well. Most of us are from European ancestry, just for the record,.... In Bible times out ancestors were referred to in the Bible as Barbarians. So today judging what is acceptable by our culture is funny since we were Barbaric ourselves.
The other argument of how it is culturally inferior is amusing as well. Most of us are from European ancestry, just for the record,.... In Bible times out ancestors were referred to in the Bible as Barbarians. So today judging what is acceptable by our culture is funny since we were Barbaric ourselves.
admin said:
He was describing not his willingness to sacrifice the message, but his willingness to sacrifice himself to preach the message. I really
don't know what this had to do with the price of tea in china or Christian Rock. But again, I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box neither.
admin said:Okay. Great! I thought you were making the comparison when you said, " .and if one thinks that Christian rock music has had no effect on the church of God and it's young people since it came on the scene then that one..........has got his head in the sand."
Forum communication can be pesky
What can I say?
I was just naming effects Rock music has had ..........American Christianity {no matter what flavor} and biblical Christianity are at odds and they're many reasons for this. If Christian rock ain't one of them then I'll have to eat some crow in the New Jerusalem.
Bob H said:
Paul treated the secular things of his day as non-issues. He adopted to the culture of the Jews when with Jews and the Gentiles when with Gentiles. If it took adapting cultural items, to reach some for the gospel, then he did it without controversy.
So, the point that CCM has "rock-n-roll/pop/rap" features, so we must reject it. It actually prevents many IFBrs from engaging their culture for the sake of the gospel.
I have heard the IFB messages and grew up in that culture. I was told over and over again that reaching people with the gospel via CCM is wrong.
Paul says we have freedom to adopt various items in our culture for the sake of the gospel.