Alien Baptism?

Baptist Renegade

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I think I may have hijacked the Tim Keller thread speaking of Baptism but there has been some interesting discussion worthy of its own thread so why don't we move the conversation here?

I'll start by asking what exactly makes a baptism a legitimate, "New Testament Church" baptism? Who has the authority to baptize and on what basis is this authority defined?

First thing that should be clear is that a baptism certainly involves an organized, visible New Testament Church having a charter, menbership, and the exercise of the biblical offices of "bishop and deacon."

I would assert that baptism is an ordinance of the church and should therefore be performed under the authority of a biblical New Testament Church. Such begs the follow-up question: How do we define a properly organized and functioning local, New Testament Church? Any example of something you WOULD NOT consider to be a legitimate or biblical church?

Being that baptism is an ordinance of the church, I believe that it is "The Church" (collectively) who has the authority to baptize and not individuals based upon whatever ecclesiastical "office" they are holding. The Church may delegate the role of baptism to individuals of their respective conversation and it is common practice that such individuals are ordained members of the "clergy" although this is not (IMO) biblically mandated but if you disagree, let me know. What biblical guidelines should a Local, New Testament Church follow in regards to whom the ordinance of baptism is delegated?

Finally, by what criteria should we recognize one's baptism from another congregation?
 
Renegade asks some excellent questions - I cannot respond to all of them right now, but I totally agree that "being that baptism is an ordinance of the church, I believe that it is 'The Church' (collectively) who has the authority to baptize and not individuals based on whatever ecclesiastical 'office' they are holding." All baptisms should be carried out by the authority and vote of a local church. If I go down to the lake or swimming pool, and dunk folks without local church authorization, there are few if any churches that would accept such baptisms, nor should they.

Some Baptists take the position that the administrator should be an ordained minister, but I don't see any such requirement in the Bible.

As I hinted in a previous post, it would be a wise policy for churches to accept baptisms only from other congregations that they recognize as a true church of "like faith and practice," however that is defined. If the applicant for membership was "baptized" in another "church" that is not recognized as a true church, and to which they would not be willing to dismiss members with a letter of good and regular standing, then it would be inconsistent to accept their baptism.
 
In Acts we have the example of Philip who was one of the men chosen in Acts 6. He would later be seen in Samaria and Gaza where he baptized Samaritans and the Ethiopian eunuch. I don't think that just any Christian can go baptizing people. They have to be chosen by a church and ordained either as an elder or deacon to do this.
 
I think I may have hijacked the Tim Keller thread speaking of Baptism but there has been some interesting discussion worthy of its own thread so why don't we move the conversation here?

I'll start by asking what exactly makes a baptism a legitimate, "New Testament Church" baptism? Who has the authority to baptize and on what basis is this authority defined?

First thing that should be clear is that a baptism certainly involves an organized, visible New Testament Church having a charter, menbership, and the exercise of the biblical offices of "bishop and deacon."

I would assert that baptism is an ordinance of the church and should therefore be performed under the authority of a biblical New Testament Church. Such begs the follow-up question: How do we define a properly organized and functioning local, New Testament Church? Any example of something you WOULD NOT consider to be a legitimate or biblical church?

Being that baptism is an ordinance of the church, I believe that it is "The Church" (collectively) who has the authority to baptize and not individuals based upon whatever ecclesiastical "office" they are holding. The Church may delegate the role of baptism to individuals of their respective conversation and it is common practice that such individuals are ordained members of the "clergy" although this is not (IMO) biblically mandated but if you disagree, let me know. What biblical guidelines should a Local, New Testament Church follow in regards to whom the ordinance of baptism is delegated?

Finally, by what criteria should we recognize one's baptism from another congregation?
Would see it as being a legit administered ordinance if was done in and by a duly authorized spiritual local assemble , and that was done by a legit NT Church.
 
All baptisms should be carried out by the authority and vote of a local church.
The membership attests to the testimony of the baptism candidate and with the act of baptism, one is received into the church. To the church and to the world, the one being baptized is testifying that their "Old Man" is dead, that they have been raised to walk in newness of life. Whatever their old identity, their new identity is with Christ and his Church.

Without the Church, there is no baptism.
If I go down to the lake or swimming pool, and dunk folks without local church authorization, there are few if any churches that would accept such baptisms, nor should they.
There are to be no "freestyle" baptisms outside the authority of a local church regardless of the "credentials" (or lack thereof) of the one who is performing the baptism.

If a church (properly organized and functioning) decides to have a baptism service at a lake or swimming pool and is performed otherwise in a biblical manner (trinitarian, upon their profession of faith, etc.), such a baptism should be without question.

My last church in Southern California performed its baptisms during "Life Group Fellowships" (small group meetings) where people were baptized in swimming pools, jacuzzis, etc. Such was under the oversight and direction of the Church elders. Not sure I would completely agree today but it is without question that such baptisms were performed under the authority of a local church and are therefore valid.
Some Baptists take the position that the administrator should be an ordained minister, but I don't see any such requirement in the Bible.
There are a few things we can say about this.

First of all, one could argue whether ordination is even scriptural? I believe that the "Recognizing, laying on of hands, and sending out" is demonstrated throughout the scriptures and this is where the practice of licensure and ordination is based so I believe this to be a good practice that should not be neglected or diminished.

We have Jesus's words that "Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven..." which I believe may be applied to certain practices within a local church that may differ from one to another. The scriptures do not mandate that an "ordained minister" be the one who does the dunking but if a Church congregation makes it their requirement, then one is bound to honor this and recognize the authority of the one to whom such is given.

With all of this said, it is understood that it is the local church that has the authority to baptize. It should also go without saying that the church has the RESPONSIBILITY to ensure that the baptism is properly administered according to a specified criteria. The Church is responsible to ensure that the task is delegated to someone who is adequately equipped to understand doctrine and exercise discernment in the counsel of those who desire to be baptized. Such a task is therefore usually delegated to an adequately trained pastor/elder.

In our church, it is common practice that the pastor performs all of the baptisms. Baptisms are performed once or twice a year and baptism candidates are required to attend classes that are taught exclusively by our pastor. During these classes, the pastor gets to know the candidates better and is able to assess the validity of their "conversion experience," evidence of regeneration, etc.

And with all of this being said, I would be perfectly fine with my pastor delegating the actual "dunking" to be performed by someone else so long as he continued with his diligent "screening" and "gate-keeping" of candidates. There are some churches that allow parents to baptize their own children (during a formal baptism service) and so forth. I have seen such being turned into a literal "Party" atmosphere and I do believe we need to maintain th dignity and solemnity of the occasion. I believe that the person performing the baptism should be someone who is a "spiritual leader" who will take ownership of this individual for discipleship and integration into the church body.
As I hinted in a previous post, it would be a wise policy for churches to accept baptisms only from other congregations that they recognize as a true church of "like faith and practice," however that is defined. If the applicant for membership was "baptized" in another "church" that is not recognized as a true church, and to which they would not be willing to dismiss members with a letter of good and regular standing, then it would be inconsistent to accept their baptism.
I believe this involves discernment that extends far beyond the actual baptism. What makes a church to be a "True Church" and what lines need to be drawn in order to distinguish a "true church" from a "false church?" We need to be careful in our definitions here delineating the essential core doctrines which define the historic, orthodox Christian faith. Far too often, we argue over matters of eschatology, ecclesiology, election/free will, cessationism/continuationism, and so forth. Do we really want to dismiss as a "False Church" a congregation officially holding to a "Pre-wrath" position over a "Pre-Tribulational Rapture?" There are some who do just this but would this be right? Should we not "call out" such as being overly contentious and divisive?

I would be very cautious regarding any baptism from a congregation having "Restorationist" roots (anti-creedal/anti-confessional). JWs, LDS, and SDA, are obvious. Cambellite Churches of Christ that teach "Baptismal Regeneration" should also be rejected. There are some "Disciples of Christ" and "Christian" Churches that are more orthodox but since they still do not hold to any "creed" or "statement of faith," it is often difficult to exercise proper discernment from one congregation to the next.

While I would never recommend any Pentecostal or Charismatic denomination, I would also acknowledge that the Assemblies of God (for example) has a very robust statement of faith and aside from their arminianism and continuation of "sign gifts," etc., they easily pass my orthodox "smell test" and for this, I would not dismiss them as being a "false church." If someone were coming from a more radical congregation such as "Word of Faith," Bethel or whatever, I would be significantly more hesitant and would never regard such as being a "true church" any more than I would consider the Roman Catholic Church as being a "true church!"

If, on the other hand, Arnold Caines (Calvary Chapel affilliated) were to come to my church, I would receive him without hesitation and possibly recommend him for a future leadership position!

There are many other "Rabbit Trails" we could go down and explore. As I have stated elsewhere, Paul Chappell (Lancaster Baptist) accepts only "Baptist Baptism" in the interest of "Doctrinal Purity" but I would argue that achieving doctrinal purity (which is important) is far more complicated than just ensuring that everyone is baptized with the "right baptism" right? What I would do is begin with a very robust SOF that outlines specifically what our congregation believes and teaches as well as reasonable standards of conduct of which we would expect of each member. Such would be covered in the church's constitutional bylaws and membership covenant. This would be reinforced with sound, expositional teaching and preaching where one would become better grounded in these doctrines and adequately equipped for whatever God's calling is for you in our local church body!
 
In Acts we have the example of Philip who was one of the men chosen in Acts 6. He would later be seen in Samaria and Gaza where he baptized Samaritans and the Ethiopian eunuch. I don't think that just any Christian can go baptizing people. They have to be chosen by a church and ordained either as an elder or deacon to do this.
Philip is the classic "go to" example of "What Church was he baptized into?" and I believe this is worthy of discussion. In Acts 6, Philip was numbered among the original "Deacons" who were selected by the Church and ordained by the Apostles. Of course you have the stoning of "Deacon Stephen" in Acts 7 and the church was scattered from there. In Chapter 8, we have Philip doing the "work of an evangelist" (hence his name "Philip the Evangelist") alongside the other apostles and then with the Ethopian Eunoch. There is no specific period of time here. One may read all of these accounts and say this was perhaps a matter of a few weeks or even days but may have been several years! Either way, one's role in the church is always subject to change.

Philip's authority to baptize was conferred upon him by his church. He may have been ordained as a deacon but here, it is clear that his role extends beyond the walls of the church and one may argue that he was excercising his calling to be a "Missionary" or "Evangelist" and such a calling was observed and validated (if not tacitly) by the other apostles and leaders of the "First Baptist Church of Jerusalem!"

"Missionaries" and "Evangelists" should be sent out of local congregations who have seen the validation of their calling and the development of their spiritual gifts just like Paul and Barnabas was sent from the "First Baptist Church of Antioch!" Missionaries are usually "Licensed and Ordained" being sent out under the authority of their Church to baptize, make disciples, and ultimately to organize, structure, and establish other New Testament Churches wherever they go and while doing so, they are accountable to and report back to the said "local church" of which they were sent. Philip therefore baptized the Ethopian Eunoch under the authority of his home church (FBCJ) and in doing so, established Christianity in Ethiopia where the Ethiopian Eunoch likely became one of the prominent leaders in his home church (First Baptist Church of Addis Apaba?)!
 
Based on the above discussion, it is extremely questionable for baptisms to be practiced at any camp or gathering of believers outside of church authority. It is not fair to administer to converts, at such a venue, a "baptism" that would be not accepted for membership by few if any churches. Of course, baptisms at the beach or pool are fine, as long as there is church authority.

I would also question the wisdom of observing the Lord's Supper at any camp, stadium meeting or non-church gathering. Of course, people are free to do whatever they want to do, but Paul's advice in 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 assumes the Lord's Supper to be a local church ordinance.

Acceptance of LDS (Moron) baptism is out of the question. Even the very liberal United Methodist Church, as well as the Roman Catholic Church, will not accept LDS baptism.
 
Based on the above discussion, it is extremely questionable for baptisms to be practiced at any camp or gathering of believers outside of church authority. It is not fair to administer to converts, at such a venue, a "baptism" that would be not accepted for membership by few if any churches. Of course, baptisms at the beach or pool are fine, as long as there is church authority.
Billy Graham, despite being as "Eccumenical" as he was, never conducted a Baptism service during his crusades. He left this to those who would "follow up" and get them into their respective churches.

I remember watching the beach baptism service at the beach in the "Jesus Revolution" movie and even being quite moved emotionally. Setting these emotions aside, I believe it was quite unscriptural in that it was not ultimately tied to a specific Church congregation. I guess it was later connected with what would become Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa but the way the movie presented it, it was pretty much just a "freestyle" service with anyone baptizing anybody and no telling where many would end up!

I understand that churches sometimes have baptisms during youth camps or youth conferences where multiple churches would attend and kids who made "Decisions" during this time would typically be baptized by their respective youth pastor. I believe it would be better for the kids to wait until they are at their home church with their parents and church family.

Our church has a "Churchwide Retreat" that seems to be an annual thing now during Easter Weekend. I recall one year, we included a baptism service in which two of my adult (step) kids were baptized during the Sunrise Service. Since the entire church (and only our church) was there at the camp, I was OK with this.
I would also question the wisdom of observing the Lord's Supper at any camp, stadium meeting or non-church gathering. Of course, people are free to do whatever they want to do, but Paul's advice in 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 assumes the Lord's Supper to be a local church ordinance.
I wholeheartedly agree! Both Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ordinances of the church which should be practiced soley within the context of a local church. I wrote a paper on the "Ordinances of the Church" during seminary arguing over whether Astronaut Buzz Aldrin was observing a legitimate communion service while he was on the surface of the moon. We can argue over and sort out all the nuances of the Lord's Supper on another thread.
Acceptance of LDS (Moron) baptism is out of the question. Even the very liberal United Methodist Church, as well as the Roman Catholic Church, will not accept LDS baptism.
Goes without saying. I am certain that the Morons and Jehovah False Witnesses wouldn't recognize each other's baptisms either. May as well though because both are equally worthless.
 
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