An Open Letter To IFB College Students

[fishinnut]

While I agree that there is a "bullying" factor at these IFB schools, my position is the kids, their parents and their pastors all knew this ahead of the time.

To call those you consider your brothers and sisters in Christ an "enemy," reveals a REAL BAD attitude.

I take this article with a grain of salt given who wrote it and the over-the-top statements.

But IF you remain IFB, you will FORCE him to be your enemy...it's not his fault!
  ;D

Though that line can be taken that way, it might not have meant exactly that.

The quote was:

...if you remain in IFB, you will force me to be your enemy...

When I left the Hyles brand of IFB, to leave was to create emnity regardless of how it was viewed by the party leaving. IOW, in the days right after I left, may of those who were my former IFB friends viewed me as their enemy, trying to destroy Hyles and Hammond. I simply wanted to be left alone and not be harassed by them. I was in essence "forced" to be their enemy, though it was not of my choosing.

I look at his quote in the context that his disdain for the tactics he mentioned put emnity between himself and those people which would in essence "force" him to be their enemy based on THEIR bias, not necessarily his.

Maybe I'm wrong but that is how I perceived it as someone who was formerly in his shoes. They became my enemy because whoever was not for them was against them.

I with Smellin on this. I Sam. 18:29b "and Saul became David's enemy continually" comes to mind.

When I walked away from my IFBX college roots. I was treated like I was an enemy even though I would have pitched in if anyone of the crowd had been in need. I had lies told about me, had my church members contacted by a local big-name pastor from my school & told to leave the church of which I was pastor & some did  & of course joined his church. My wife & I lost what we thought were some close friendships that we cherished, folks who to this day will not speak to us.  But I figure that that's their problem. I made my decision. BTW, that other pastor....can you say train wreck?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

The author is a stinkin' liberal deadbeat.  He begins my bemoaning the IFB position against homosexuality as sin.  He then admits he has never been a part of the IFB movement, but has studied it extensively from without.  He is against bullying, but then threatens people with being their enemy if they do not comply with his wishes.  He does not understand the intricacies of the IFB, because he lumps BJU, PCC and HAC into one group - any one with any familiarity of these groups understands that they are extremely different.  Just because a dachshund and a pit bull are both dogs, don't expect them to be very similar.

The author is one who heard a few stories and wrote a letter motivated originally by his hatred for those who would speak against homosexuality.  Go ahead - be my enemy.

 

[OZZY]

Wow, what a broad brush article. He has an almost valid argument until his, you are my enemy.....

He is destined to remain a blip on the internet.

Of course IFB are his enemy the guy is a sodimite

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

While I agree that there is a "bullying" factor at these IFB schools, my position is the kids, their parents and their pastors all knew this ahead of the time.

To call those you consider your brothers and sisters in Christ an "enemy," reveals a REAL BAD attitude.

I take this article with a grain of salt given who wrote it and the over-the-top statements.

But IF you remain IFB, you will FORCE him to be your enemy...it's not his fault!
  ;D

Though that line can be taken that way, it might not have meant exactly that.

The quote was:

...if you remain in IFB, you will force me to be your enemy...

When I left the Hyles brand of IFB, to leave was to create emnity regardless of how it was viewed by the party leaving. IOW, in the days right after I left, may of those who were my former IFB friends viewed me as their enemy, trying to destroy Hyles and Hammond. I simply wanted to be left alone and not be harassed by them. I was in essence "forced" to be their enemy, though it was not of my choosing.

I look at his quote in the context that his disdain for the tactics he mentioned put emnity between himself and those people which would in essence "force" him to be their enemy based on THEIR bias, not necessarily his.

Maybe I'm wrong but that is how I perceived it as someone who was formerly in his shoes. They became my enemy because whoever was not for them was against them.

I with Smellin on this. I Sam. 18:29b "and Saul became David's enemy continually" comes to mind.

When I walked away from my IFBX college roots. I was treated like I was an enemy even though I would have pitched in if anyone of the crowd had been in need. I had lies told about me, had my church members contacted by a local big-name pastor from my school & told to leave the church of which I was pastor & some did  & of course joined his church. My wife & I lost what we thought were some close friendships that we cherished, folks who to this day will not speak to us.  But I figure that that's their problem. I made my decision. BTW, that other pastor....can you say train wreck?

"And though it breaks my heart to say it, if you remain in IFB, you will force me to be your enemy. Because IFB holds that women are inherently inferior to men, that they are intended by God to be nothing but mothers and “helpmeets” to their husbands. IFB believes that godly parents methodically beat their young children in order to “break their will.” IFB fights to deny its children an education (to the extent that it runs such sham “colleges” as the one you now attend). IFB sends its “disobedient” teens to unsupervised “homes,” where they are horrifically abused and degraded. (For more, see The 8 million strong Independent Fundamental Baptists cult, headed by Bob Jones University."

I think the quote in it's context shows he meant what he said.....
I smell Obsession...

 

[Mathew Ward]

While I agree that there is a "bullying" factor at these IFB schools, my position is the kids, their parents and their pastors all knew this ahead of the time.

To call those you consider your brothers and sisters in Christ an "enemy," reveals a REAL BAD attitude.

I take this article with a grain of salt given who wrote it and the over-the-top statements.

But IF you remain IFB, you will FORCE him to be your enemy...it's not his fault!
  ;D

Though that line can be taken that way, it might not have meant exactly that.

The quote was:

...if you remain in IFB, you will force me to be your enemy...

When I left the Hyles brand of IFB, to leave was to create emnity regardless of how it was viewed by the party leaving. IOW, in the days right after I left, may of those who were my former IFB friends viewed me as their enemy, trying to destroy Hyles and Hammond. I simply wanted to be left alone and not be harassed by them. I was in essence "forced" to be their enemy, though it was not of my choosing.

I look at his quote in the context that his disdain for the tactics he mentioned put emnity between himself and those people which would in essence "force" him to be their enemy based on THEIR bias, not necessarily his.

Maybe I'm wrong but that is how I perceived it as someone who was formerly in his shoes. They became my enemy because whoever was not for them was against them.

I with Smellin on this. I Sam. 18:29b "and Saul became David's enemy continually" comes to mind.

When I walked away from my IFBX college roots. I was treated like I was an enemy even though I would have pitched in if anyone of the crowd had been in need. I had lies told about me, had my church members contacted by a local big-name pastor from my school & told to leave the church of which I was pastor & some did  & of course joined his church. My wife & I lost what we thought were some close friendships that we cherished, folks who to this day will not speak to us.  But I figure that that's their problem. I made my decision. BTW, that other pastor....can you say train wreck?

Double ditto...

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

While I agree that there is a "bullying" factor at these IFB schools, my position is the kids, their parents and their pastors all knew this ahead of the time.

To call those you consider your brothers and sisters in Christ an "enemy," reveals a REAL BAD attitude.

I take this article with a grain of salt given who wrote it and the over-the-top statements.

But IF you remain IFB, you will FORCE him to be your enemy...it's not his fault!
  ;D

Though that line can be taken that way, it might not have meant exactly that.

The quote was:

...if you remain in IFB, you will force me to be your enemy...

When I left the Hyles brand of IFB, to leave was to create emnity regardless of how it was viewed by the party leaving. IOW, in the days right after I left, may of those who were my former IFB friends viewed me as their enemy, trying to destroy Hyles and Hammond. I simply wanted to be left alone and not be harassed by them. I was in essence "forced" to be their enemy, though it was not of my choosing.

I look at his quote in the context that his disdain for the tactics he mentioned put emnity between himself and those people which would in essence "force" him to be their enemy based on THEIR bias, not necessarily his.

Maybe I'm wrong but that is how I perceived it as someone who was formerly in his shoes. They became my enemy because whoever was not for them was against them.

I with Smellin on this. I Sam. 18:29b "and Saul became David's enemy continually" comes to mind.

When I walked away from my IFBX college roots. I was treated like I was an enemy even though I would have pitched in if anyone of the crowd had been in need. I had lies told about me, had my church members contacted by a local big-name pastor from my school & told to leave the church of which I was pastor & some did  & of course joined his church. My wife & I lost what we thought were some close friendships that we cherished, folks who to this day will not speak to us.  But I figure that that's their problem. I made my decision. BTW, that other pastor....can you say train wreck?

Double ditto...

You're so redundant!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

"And though it breaks my heart to say it, if you remain in IFB, you will force me to be your enemy. Because IFB holds that women are inherently inferior to men, that they are intended by God to be nothing but mothers and “helpmeets” to their husbands. IFB believes that godly parents methodically beat their young children in order to “break their will.” IFB fights to deny its children an education (to the extent that it runs such sham “colleges” as the one you now attend). IFB sends its “disobedient” teens to unsupervised “homes,” where they are horrifically abused and degraded. (For more, see The 8 million strong Independent Fundamental Baptists cult, headed by Bob Jones University."


'IFB believes'....really? I was IFB most of my life and NEVER believed ANY of that!
I'm not an IFB now, but would probably be considered his enemy....I never did befriend broad brushing, obsessed loons. 

 

[16KJV11]

There us nothing more absurd than an intolerant "tolerant."

I think you just defined 'liberalism'.
My sister and her husband, two idealistic, ultra liberals have tolerance for everyone except for conservatives.

 

[pastorryanhayden]

I really can't believe some of you who said you agreed with that article 100% - while I disagree with you on many things, I thought you had more of a sense of fairness than that.

This is my response from my blog:


Last week, an Open Letter to Students of IFB colleges popped up on the internet. It was a letter that I found offensive on many levels, so I want to reply in kind with an open letter to the author of said letter: John Shore.


Greetings, my name is Ryan Hayden, I’m the pastor of an Independent Baptist Church (IFB) and I too believe in the literal divinity, miracles, atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I’ll add to that that I believe in the inerrancy and verbal preservation of scripture (an important epistemology defining belief that you left out of your open letter.)

Over the years, I too have come to know many Independent Baptists. As a former student of two different IFB colleges, as an IFB pastor who may at times recommend those colleges, and as a blogger who primarily writes about excesses within the IFB movement, I want to answer the claims of your open letter:

You start your letter by saying that IFB stands for “Irresponsible Fundamentalist Bullies” and state that the most bullied people in IFB circles are the students of IFB colleges. I’ll admit that there is some bullying that goes on at some IFB colleges. (Just as there is some bullying that goes on in some liberal university classrooms – I don’t think I would feel very welcome in Bill Ayer’s classroom.) I don’t want to, in any way, belittle those who were hurt by bullying, where it occurred but I would not say that all of the students at IFB colleges are bullied and I would not say as you said that no one is more bullied in the IFB than IFB college students.

So I take issue with the central premise of your letter Mr. Shore. But even if I did agree with your premise, I’d have the following to say:

1. Stop Bullying
The main point of your open letter is that IFB college students are bullied, and yet you act the bully in the open letter. It never ceases to amaze me how often those who preach tolerance the loudest are intolerant of those who hold to traditional truth claims. (Remember a speech by a certain Dan Savage.). It would seem to me that name calling, veiled threats, belittling implications and straw men would not be at home in a letter designed to show the IFB as a bunch of bullies – but then again, I only went to IFB pseudo-colleges so I obviously have no idea what I’m talking about.

2. Admit your bias
The first few paragraphs of your letter are obviously intended to present you as someone sympathetic to biblical Christianity. Yet a simple google search shows that you are an pro-homosexual activist who is recommended by such stalwart theological conservatives as Rob Bell and John Spong. You are an ordained minister of the Progressive Christian Alliance, and you are the founder of a group called Unfundamentalist Christians. In other words, you have such a strong bias against fundamentalists, that you’ve committed much of your life to destroying them. This bias would obviously color your open letter.

You failed to mention this in your letter (but it came out anyway.)

3. Stop broad brushing
Your letter says:

The IFB holds that women are inherently inferior to men, that they are intended by God to be nothing but mothers and “helpmeets” to their husbands. IFB believes that godly parents methodically beat their young children in order to “break their will.” IFB fights to deny its children an education (to the extent that it runs such sham “colleges” as the one you now attend.) IFB sends its “disobedient” teens to unsupervised “homes,” where they are horrifically abused and degraded…

Really??

How have I spent 29 years somehow attached to the IFB movement and never met one person who believes all of that? (I can honestly say I’ve met very few people who would believe any one of those things, even in isolation.) Also, How did I miss that there is any IFB that agrees on anything? Where is the official IFB statement of faith? At what convention did we agree the above platform?

Let me ask you: Is there anybody who you went to school with that committed a heinous crime? How would you like it if I used the worst examples of your school to tarnish your name?

Not only do you have a progressive bias, but you obviously paint with a very broad brush and have only black and white at your disposal. Your letter left exactly zero room for gradation while attempting to describe a massive group of thousands of unaffiliated churches. I didn’t think stereotyping minority groups was ok with progressives. Are justice and truth reserved only for articles about homosexuals and liberal politics?

4. Consider your sources
You say…

Over the past few years I have come to know a lot of members of the Independent Fundamental Baptists.

Well, I’d say you probably should have met some more before you wrote your article, because the group you attacked looks nothing like my church, nothing like the churches of anyone in my local preacher’s fellowship, and nothing like the IFB colleges I attended.

Be honest. You are a progressive activist. What percentage of those “a lot of members” are disgruntled former members with a bias of their own? How many are the type of obsessed ex-IFB who frequently read and agree with the comments at Stuff Fundies Like or any of the Patheos blogs? Is it at all possible that not only you have a bias, but the vast majority of your sources do as well?

In conclusion.
Your open letter did remind me of one truth. Prospective Bible college students probably need some advice that they are not getting. So as a pastor and former IFB college student, this is the advice I would give to a teenager who was thinking about attending an IFB college.

1. If you are going for ministry realize it’s not for everyone.
If you go to school at a Bible College, you need to realize up front that that degree isn’t going to get you very far in the secular workforce. You also need to realize that a very large proportion of students who study ministry, never end up in the pastorate or some other form of full-time ministry. Even among those who do, the vast majority labor in obscurity making very little money.

In other words, if you want to go to school for the ministry, make very sure that you are called to do it and are not doing it out of some mistaken form of peer pressure because it is a major life decision that could alter your future significantly.

2. No mater where you go, you are going to go to school with with a small percentage of complete idiots.
A good portion of the students at your IFB school are not there because they want to be there, many are there because they are trying to please their parents. There will also be many unhealthy cliques in your college – including some who may seem zealous about the ministry but who could shipwreck your life and skew your view of the ministry. Despite both of these things, you will probably meet a bunch of great and like-minded people who will remain lifelong friends.

3. You will be under strict institutional rules – never get the idea they come from scripture or think they’ll apply to you for the rest of your life.
In no small part because of the groups above, your Bible college handbook will be ridiculous. Just remember that wonderful verse (that isn’t really in the Bible.) “This too shall pass.” Very few people think their Bible College handbook is normative for the rest of their life. , don’t ever be one of them. You’ll get through it and may even grow to appreciate the experience someday.

4. You’re allegiance is not to your school, but to Christ, His Word and His Church.
You may be tempted (or even pressured) to have excessive loyalty to your school. Remember that your loyalty is first and foremost to Christ. If your school is worthy, they won’t be asking for you to give them more loyalty than your local church, and won’t expect you to be partisan to them in the future.

In closing let me give you one last thing:

5. I had a wonderful time in Christian college – keep it in perspective and you will too.

 

[Just John]

While I believe there is some merit in Shore's open letter, your response is most fair and generally spot on. Well done.

 

[Mathew Ward]

The IFB holds that women are inherently inferior to men, that they are intended by God to be nothing but mothers and “helpmeets” to their husbands. IFB believes that godly parents methodically beat their young children in order to “break their will.” IFB fights to deny its children an education (to the extent that it runs such sham “colleges” as the one you now attend.) IFB sends its “disobedient” teens to unsupervised “homes,” where they are horrifically abused and degraded…

Really??

How have I spent 29 years somehow attached to the IFB movement and never met one person who believes all of that?

Do you know Jack Hyles?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

The IFB holds that women are inherently inferior to men, that they are intended by God to be nothing but mothers and “helpmeets” to their husbands. IFB believes that godly parents methodically beat their young children in order to “break their will.” IFB fights to deny its children an education (to the extent that it runs such sham “colleges” as the one you now attend.) IFB sends its “disobedient” teens to unsupervised “homes,” where they are horrifically abused and degraded…

Really??

How have I spent 29 years somehow attached to the IFB movement and never met one person who believes all of that?

Do you know Jack Hyles?

Precisely.

 

[pastorryanhayden]

No.  I don't know Jack Hyles and have never heard him speak.  Despite their blusterings, the Hyles crowd is a minority in IFB circles. 
The open letter referenced BJU and PCC, neither of those schools promote the things in the above quote.

 

[fishinnut]

The IFB holds that women are inherently inferior to men, that they are intended by God to be nothing but mothers and “helpmeets” to their husbands. IFB believes that godly parents methodically beat their young children in order to “break their will.” IFB fights to deny its children an education (to the extent that it runs such sham “colleges” as the one you now attend.) IFB sends its “disobedient” teens to unsupervised “homes,” where they are horrifically abused and degraded…

Really??

How have I spent 29 years somehow attached to the IFB movement and never met one person who believes all of that?

Do you know Jack Hyles?

Precisely.

Thanks for throwing JH in the middle of this guy's plate.

 

[Mathew Ward]

No.  I don't know Jack Hyles and have never heard him speak.  Despite their blusterings, the Hyles crowd is a minority in IFB circles. 
The open letter referenced BJU and PCC, neither of those schools promote the things in the above quote.

But you obviously know of Jack Hyles. From a blog you know...

While most of us don’t remember J. Frank Norris, another complicated, big name preacher from Texas had an equally well documented love for self-promotion: Jack Hyles. Dr. Hyles pastored the largest Independent Baptist Church in America, founded Hyles-Anderson college, and ministered to thousands of pastors every year through his “Pastor’s School.” For many years, Dr. Hyles was the face of fundamentalism, and he knew it too. The evidences of Jack Hyles self-promoting tendencies could fill an entire book. Here are just a few examples: he named his college Hyles-Anderson, he encouraged people to refer to him as the greatest preacher in America, he encouraged his students to give him a standing ovation every time he preached, he boasted of “having the steering wheel of fundamentalism” and said things like “if I fall, America falls with me”; incredibly, he even had his boyhood house dismantled in Texas and set up as a museum to him in Indiana.

Hyles inspired a whole host of Independent Baptist followers who worship him and refuse to admit one negative thing about his ministry. I know many pastors who talk about the wonderful influence of Jack Hyles on their life and I believe them, but there is a big difference between honoring a former pastor and worshipping him in cult like intensity. I’ve personally heard pastors pray to the deceased Jack Hyles and jokingly refer to him as the “fourth member of the Trinity.” I know pastors who will not allow anyone who didn’t go to Hyles Anderson to speak from their pulpit. I often wonder how all of these people interpret commands like “let no man glory in men.”

But you do acknowledge that Hyles is IFB and you have some knowledge of him. Although unbeknownst to you, Jack Hyles does ascribe to many of the things that you say IFB's don't ascribe too.

The things you take up with the author (bias and a small sampling) seems to be some of the same things you are doing. At least that is how it comes across to me.

 

[christundivided]

He is destined to remain a blip on the internet.

Much like yourself ....

 

[christundivided]

No.  I don't know Jack Hyles and have never heard him speak.  Despite their blusterings, the Hyles crowd is a minority in IFB circles. 
The open letter referenced BJU and PCC, neither of those schools promote the things in the above quote.

Get a grip. You must know very little about "IFB circles". You find far too much value in being "IFB". It means nothing. Absolutely nothing. If anything.... it soiled the reputation of Christ among those who claim such.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Some of you are ignoring the fact that Shore, in his article, the one in the OP, which we all can read, uses over and over the generic term IFB and lumps them all together. He paints with the broadest of broad brushes...he's what he claims to be an enemy of...shades of stuff fundies like!

No one has denied some believe some of those things, but so do some SBC fringe churches.

As I've said before, according to some obsessed haters (to use a little Steven Furtick lingo) the poor old IFB's stopped clock isn't even right twice a day.

I WAS an IFB for 50 years and NEVER believed that drivel....and if Hyles did, it didn't change my belief system in the least.

 

[Bob H]

No.  I don't know Jack Hyles and have never heard him speak.  Despite their blusterings, the Hyles crowd is a minority in IFB circles. 

You're right. Hyles had about as much influence in fundamentalism as a flea on a elephant's hiney

 
The open letter referenced BJU and PCC, neither of those schools promote the things in the above quote.

Agreed. The OP article was written by a dude with an axe to grind or he doesn't know a thing about fundamentalism and it's history

 

[fishinnut]

How have I spent 29 years somehow attached to the IFB movement and never met one person who believes all of that? (I can honestly say I’ve met very few people who would believe any one of those things, even in isolation.)

Looks like the above is very carefully worded. You make it sound like you've spent some 29 years in ministry. 

But looking at your FFF pic & those on your blog....you are but about 29 years old & of course every 20 something like you have your hands in control of the yolk of the history of Fundamentalism.  8)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I think you & the sore Shore guy have a lot to learn & both have made some valid points, each with his own broad brush.