Angel of the church - spiritual or physical?

[Citadel of Truth]

Jesus instructed John to write a letter to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. He was instructed to address the letter "to the angel of the church..." To whom or what do you believe this refers? 

 

[Timotheos]

Jesus instructed John to write a letter to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. He was instructed to address the letter "to the angel of the church..." To whom or what do you believe this refers?

You didn't list all the options.

Angels as interpreters of God's message is a staple of apocalyptic literature, which Revelation is surely one of many in that genre. I think the discussion is veered terribly off course when you try to identify the angelus interpres. It is a genre specific element. Leave it as a literary effect... no more.

It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Timotheos]It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.[/quote]

This.

 

[Izdaari]

[quote author=Timotheos]It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.

This.
[/quote]

Yep. Timotheos nailed it. Trying to interpret literally visions consisting of dream-like symbolism leads to craziness anyway.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=Timotheos]It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.

This.

Yep. Timotheos nailed it. Trying to interpret literally visions consisting of dream-like symbolism leads to craziness anyway.
[/quote]

Over-symbolizing is craziness, too, IMO, like saying the seven churches represent the seven consecutive ages of the church. 

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Jesus instructed John to write a letter to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. He was instructed to address the letter "to the angel of the church..." To whom or what do you believe this refers?

You didn't list all the options.

Angels as interpreters of God's message is a staple of apocalyptic literature, which Revelation is surely one of many in that genre. I think the discussion is veered terribly off course when you try to identify the angelus interpres. It is a genre specific element. Leave it as a literary effect... no more.

It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.

Conversely, you didn't answer the question.

The discussion is interpretation, which requires definition of the angel.

 

[rsc2a]

Jesus instructed John to write a letter to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. He was instructed to address the letter "to the angel of the church..." To whom or what do you believe this refers?

You didn't list all the options.

Angels as interpreters of God's message is a staple of apocalyptic literature, which Revelation is surely one of many in that genre. I think the discussion is veered terribly off course when you try to identify the angelus interpres. It is a genre specific element. Leave it as a literary effect... no more.

It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.

Conversely, you didn't answer the question.

The discussion is interpretation, which requires definition of the angel.

He did define it: "literary effect".

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Jesus instructed John to write a letter to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. He was instructed to address the letter "to the angel of the church..." To whom or what do you believe this refers?

You didn't list all the options.

Angels as interpreters of God's message is a staple of apocalyptic literature, which Revelation is surely one of many in that genre. I think the discussion is veered terribly off course when you try to identify the angelus interpres. It is a genre specific element. Leave it as a literary effect... no more.

It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.

Conversely, you didn't answer the question.

The discussion is interpretation, which requires definition of the angel.

He did define it: "literary effect".

Which is not an interpretation, it is stating a method of interpretation.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

You didn't list all the options.

On the contrary, the option of "other" covers all other options. Surprised you missed that. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Get over it.  In the context of Revelation, angel means messenger, which is what it almost always means. 

Or does Jesus have a pastor? 

Rev: 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John

The idea that angel means pastor:

 

[Izdaari]

Jesus instructed John to write a letter to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. He was instructed to address the letter "to the angel of the church..." To whom or what do you believe this refers?

You didn't list all the options.

Angels as interpreters of God's message is a staple of apocalyptic literature, which Revelation is surely one of many in that genre. I think the discussion is veered terribly off course when you try to identify the angelus interpres. It is a genre specific element. Leave it as a literary effect... no more.

It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.

Conversely, you didn't answer the question.

The discussion is interpretation, which requires definition of the angel.

Ok, how's this for a concrete interpretation:

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Leave it as a literary effect... no more.

So, there were not seven churches to whom were written seven letters and subsequently received by seven beings - spiritual or physical?

I guess John simply got bored on the Isle of Patmos and decided to write a literary masterpiece as did Herodotus and Thucydides.   

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Get over it.  In the context of Revelation, angel means messenger, which is what it almost always means. 

OK, good...we can work with this. Now, who was the angel (messenger) to whom John was told to write?

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Jesus instructed John to write a letter to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. He was instructed to address the letter "to the angel of the church..." To whom or what do you believe this refers?

You didn't list all the options.

Angels as interpreters of God's message is a staple of apocalyptic literature, which Revelation is surely one of many in that genre. I think the discussion is veered terribly off course when you try to identify the angelus interpres. It is a genre specific element. Leave it as a literary effect... no more.

It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.

Conversely, you didn't answer the question.

The discussion is interpretation, which requires definition of the angel.

Then YOU answer and define it.  If you can.

So, I believe it is a single human messenger placed over the spiritual welfare of the church ie bishop/pastor.

Firstly, it should be interpreted using basic grammar but allowing for allegory. Secondly, the underlying Greek should be compared.

There is nothing in the statement "Unto the angel of the church .... write" which occurs 7 times that this is referring to Christ. Christ writing unto Christ seems out of place.

We see no other occurrences to indicate a "guardian angel", or a specific angel assigned to a specific church. We would have to make that up right here.

While it might seem odd on the surface to use the word "angel" to mean some type of earthly human being, it is not inappropriate to the English language to do so.

Websters 1828
AN'GEL, n. Usually pronounced angel, but most anomalously. L. angelus; Gr. a messenger, to tell or announce.

1. Literally, a messenger; one employed to communicate news or information from one person to another at a distance. But appropriately,

2. A spirit, or a spiritual intelligent being employed by God to communicate his will to man. Hence angels are ministers of God, and ministring spirits. Heb. 1.

Dictionary.com
Angel:
noun
1.
one of a class of spiritual beings; a celestial attendant of God. In medieval angelology, angels constituted the lowest of the nine celestial orders (seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations or dominions, virtues, powers, principalities or princedoms, archangels, and angels).
2.
a conventional representation of such a being, in human form, with wings, usually in white robes.
3.
a messenger, especially of God.


Looking at the Greek, is there allowance for the idea of the Greek word "aggelos" being interpreted as "some kind of earthly messenger"?
Yes.
Mark 1:2-3  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John the Baptist is referred to using this word.
Luke 7:19-24
Luke 7:24  And when the messengers (Greek "aggelos") of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
The two disciples that John sent to Jesus were referred to using this word.
Luke 7:27
Luke 7:27  This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek "aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
John again
Luke 9:52
Luke 9:52  And sent messengers (Greek "aggelos")before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Jesus sent unnamed men ahead of him, they were referred to using this word.
James 2:25
James 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers (Greek "aggelos"), and had sent them out another way?
Those men received by Rahab were referred to using this word.

Based up upon this information, I find it consistent to interpret the "angel of the church" in Revelation (all 7 of them that is) as an earthly messenger. Without any other indicators, I find it consistent that this be interpreted (prophet"s opinions notwithstanding) as the bishop/pastor of the church.

If you are looking for supporting opinions, try Adam Clarke, Thomas Coke, John Gill, Alexander MacLaren, Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Get over it.  In the context of Revelation, angel means messenger, which is what it almost always means. 

OK, good...we can work with this. Now, who was the angel (messenger) to whom John was told to write?

They were angels.  As in, "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?"  Or, as in, "And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to Him."  Or, as in, "And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven."  Or, as in, "Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?"

Or, as in a plethora of other scriptural quotes that refer to angels as being NON-human messengers. 

If you disagree, then give us your scriptural support for interpreting angel to mean pastor. 

Bwahahahahahahaha!  I can't wait. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Looking at the Greek, is there allowance for the idea of the Greek word "aggelos" being interpreted as "some kind of earthly messenger"?
Yes.
Mark 1:2-3  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John the Baptist is referred to using this word.
Luke 7:19-24
Luke 7:24  And when the messengers (Greek "aggelos") of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
The two disciples that John sent to Jesus were referred to using this word.
Luke 7:27
Luke 7:27  This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek "aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
John again
Luke 9:52
Luke 9:52  And sent messengers (Greek "aggelos")before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Jesus sent unnamed men ahead of him, they were referred to using this word.
James 2:25
James 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers (Greek "aggelos"), and had sent them out another way?
Those men received by Rahab were referred to using this word.

Based up upon this information, I find it consistent to interpret the "angel of the church" in Revelation (all 7 of them that is) as an earthly messenger. Without any other indicators, I find it consistent that this be interpreted (prophet"s opinions notwithstanding) as the bishop/pastor of the church.

If you are looking for supporting opinions, try Adam Clarke, Thomas Coke, John Gill, Alexander MacLaren, Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole.

Huh.  Now why do you suppose these instances were translated "messengers" and not "angels"? 

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Get over it.  In the context of Revelation, angel means messenger, which is what it almost always means. 

OK, good...we can work with this. Now, who was the angel (messenger) to whom John was told to write?

They were angels.  As in, "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?"  Or, as in, "And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to Him."  Or, as in, "And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven."  Or, as in, "Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?"

Or, as in a plethora of other scriptural quotes that refer to angels as being NON-human messengers. 

If you disagree, then give us your scriptural support for interpreting angel to mean pastor. 

Bwahahahahahahaha!  I can't wait.

Umm, so now the scriptures were written to angels, as in John wrote to the cherubim/seraphim/Gabriel/Michael? Cause they were in the dark about something?

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Looking at the Greek, is there allowance for the idea of the Greek word "aggelos" being interpreted as "some kind of earthly messenger"?
Yes.
Mark 1:2-3  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John the Baptist is referred to using this word.
Luke 7:19-24
Luke 7:24  And when the messengers (Greek "aggelos") of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
The two disciples that John sent to Jesus were referred to using this word.
Luke 7:27
Luke 7:27  This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek "aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
John again
Luke 9:52
Luke 9:52  And sent messengers (Greek "aggelos")before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Jesus sent unnamed men ahead of him, they were referred to using this word.
James 2:25
James 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers (Greek "aggelos"), and had sent them out another way?
Those men received by Rahab were referred to using this word.

Based up upon this information, I find it consistent to interpret the "angel of the church" in Revelation (all 7 of them that is) as an earthly messenger. Without any other indicators, I find it consistent that this be interpreted (prophet"s opinions notwithstanding) as the bishop/pastor of the church.

If you are looking for supporting opinions, try Adam Clarke, Thomas Coke, John Gill, Alexander MacLaren, Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole.

Huh.  Now why do you suppose these instances were translated "messengers" and not "angels"?

Better question, why was "aggelos" used?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Looking at the Greek, is there allowance for the idea of the Greek word "aggelos" being interpreted as "some kind of earthly messenger"?
Yes.
Mark 1:2-3  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John the Baptist is referred to using this word.
Luke 7:19-24
Luke 7:24  And when the messengers (Greek "aggelos") of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
The two disciples that John sent to Jesus were referred to using this word.
Luke 7:27
Luke 7:27  This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek "aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
John again
Luke 9:52
Luke 9:52  And sent messengers (Greek "aggelos")before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Jesus sent unnamed men ahead of him, they were referred to using this word.
James 2:25
James 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers (Greek "aggelos"), and had sent them out another way?
Those men received by Rahab were referred to using this word.

Based up upon this information, I find it consistent to interpret the "angel of the church" in Revelation (all 7 of them that is) as an earthly messenger. Without any other indicators, I find it consistent that this be interpreted (prophet"s opinions notwithstanding) as the bishop/pastor of the church.

If you are looking for supporting opinions, try Adam Clarke, Thomas Coke, John Gill, Alexander MacLaren, Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole.

Huh.  Now why do you suppose these instances were translated "messengers" and not "angels"?

Better question, why was "aggelos" used?

No, better question is why was it translated messengers instead of angels?  Are you saying Revelation is mistranslated? 

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Looking at the Greek, is there allowance for the idea of the Greek word "aggelos" being interpreted as "some kind of earthly messenger"?
Yes.
Mark 1:2-3  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John the Baptist is referred to using this word.
Luke 7:19-24
Luke 7:24  And when the messengers (Greek "aggelos") of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
The two disciples that John sent to Jesus were referred to using this word.
Luke 7:27
Luke 7:27  This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek "aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
John again
Luke 9:52
Luke 9:52  And sent messengers (Greek "aggelos")before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Jesus sent unnamed men ahead of him, they were referred to using this word.
James 2:25
James 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers (Greek "aggelos"), and had sent them out another way?
Those men received by Rahab were referred to using this word.

Based up upon this information, I find it consistent to interpret the "angel of the church" in Revelation (all 7 of them that is) as an earthly messenger. Without any other indicators, I find it consistent that this be interpreted (prophet"s opinions notwithstanding) as the bishop/pastor of the church.

If you are looking for supporting opinions, try Adam Clarke, Thomas Coke, John Gill, Alexander MacLaren, Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole.

Huh.  Now why do you suppose these instances were translated "messengers" and not "angels"?

Better question, why was "aggelos" used?

No, better question is why was it translated messengers instead of angels?  Are you saying Revelation is mistranslated?

Not at all, I clearly showed that even today the word angel does not always refer to spirit being. Common usage may say that, but the dictionary does not.