Angel of the church - spiritual or physical?

[The Rogue Tomato]

Looking at the Greek, is there allowance for the idea of the Greek word "aggelos" being interpreted as "some kind of earthly messenger"?
Yes.
Mark 1:2-3  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John the Baptist is referred to using this word.
Luke 7:19-24
Luke 7:24  And when the messengers (Greek "aggelos") of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
The two disciples that John sent to Jesus were referred to using this word.
Luke 7:27
Luke 7:27  This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek "aggelos") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
John again
Luke 9:52
Luke 9:52  And sent messengers (Greek "aggelos")before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Jesus sent unnamed men ahead of him, they were referred to using this word.
James 2:25
James 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers (Greek "aggelos"), and had sent them out another way?
Those men received by Rahab were referred to using this word.

Based up upon this information, I find it consistent to interpret the "angel of the church" in Revelation (all 7 of them that is) as an earthly messenger. Without any other indicators, I find it consistent that this be interpreted (prophet"s opinions notwithstanding) as the bishop/pastor of the church.

If you are looking for supporting opinions, try Adam Clarke, Thomas Coke, John Gill, Alexander MacLaren, Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole.

Huh.  Now why do you suppose these instances were translated "messengers" and not "angels"?

Better question, why was "aggelos" used?

No, better question is why was it translated messengers instead of angels?  Are you saying Revelation is mistranslated?

Not at all, I clearly showed that even today the word angel does not always refer to spirit being. Common usage may say that, but the dictionary does not.

What you showed is that when the Greek word for "messenger" refers to a human, it is (appropriately) translated "messenger" not "angel". 

 

[Citadel of Truth]

If you are looking for supporting opinions, try Adam Clarke, Thomas Coke, John Gill, Alexander MacLaren, Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole.

They aren't, but if they were they could add Strong to the list.

from aggello (probably derived from 71; compare 34) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:--angel, messenger.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

They were angels...

We're making progress. What responsibility did this individual angel have to these specific individual churches? Why did Jesus tell John to specifically write to them? 

If you disagree, then give us your scriptural support for interpreting angel to mean pastor.

 

I'm not sure I totally disagree until I hear your answer above.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

They were angels...

We're making progress. What responsibility did this individual angel have to these specific individual churches? Why did Jesus tell John to specifically write to them? 

If you disagree, then give us your scriptural support for interpreting angel to mean pastor.

 

I'm not sure I totally disagree until I hear your answer above.

You're the one who thinks "angel" means "pastor".  So give us your scriptural support for that. 

 

[Citadel of Truth]

They were angels...

We're making progress. What responsibility did this individual angel have to these specific individual churches? Why did Jesus tell John to specifically write to them? 

If you disagree, then give us your scriptural support for interpreting angel to mean pastor.

 

I'm not sure I totally disagree until I hear your answer above.

You're the one who thinks "angel" means "pastor".  So give us your scriptural support for that.

Not entirely true. I believe "angel" means "messenger" and that the God's messenger to the local church is the pastor/bishop/elder - all used synonymously in scripture. 

Your turn...

I know...if A=C and B=C then A=B. But, this is not mathematics.

 

[rsc2a]

Or it's a literary device and isn't referring to any certain individual...

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

They were angels...

We're making progress. What responsibility did this individual angel have to these specific individual churches? Why did Jesus tell John to specifically write to them? 

If you disagree, then give us your scriptural support for interpreting angel to mean pastor.

 

I'm not sure I totally disagree until I hear your answer above.

You're the one who thinks "angel" means "pastor".  So give us your scriptural support for that.

Not entirely true. I believe "angel" means "messenger" and that the God's messenger to the local church is the pastor/bishop/elder - all used synonymously in scripture. 

Your turn...

I know...if A=C and B=C then A=B. But, this is not mathematics.

Here's what you're saying:

"A = B" (an angel is a messenger)
"C = B" (the pastor is a messenger)

therefore

"A = C" (an angel is a pastor)



This is equivalent to:

"A = B"  (A cat is an animal)
"C = B"  (A dog is an animal)

therefore

"A = C" (A cat is a dog)

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Here's what you're saying:

"A = B" (an angel is a messenger)
"C = B" (the pastor is a messenger)

therefore

"A = C" (an angel is a pastor)



This is equivalent to:

"A = B"  (A cat is an animal)
"C = B"  (A dog is an animal)

therefore

"A = C" (A cat is a dog)

Sorry, but I already conceded the fact that you could make a mathematical parlor trick out of it if you wanted to...apparently you wanted to.

The problem is, we're not talking about cats and dogs; we're talking about the Word of God and the interpretation thereof according to context. So, how about answering my questions?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Here's what you're saying:

"A = B" (an angel is a messenger)
"C = B" (the pastor is a messenger)

therefore

"A = C" (an angel is a pastor)



This is equivalent to:

"A = B"  (A cat is an animal)
"C = B"  (A dog is an animal)

therefore

"A = C" (A cat is a dog)

Sorry, but I already conceded the fact that you could make a mathematical parlor trick out of it if you wanted to...apparently you wanted to.

The problem is, we're not talking about cats and dogs; we're talking about the Word of God and the interpretation thereof according to context. So, how about answering my questions?

No, how about you answer mine?  All you're saying is, "I can imagine how a dog could be a cat."  That proves you have a great imagination, but that's not scriptural support. 

Now give scriptural support for angel being a pastor.  Where in the Bible does the word "angel" ever clearly refer to a pastor? 

 

[Citadel of Truth]

No, how about you answer mine?

OK, I'll take one more turn on this verbal merry-go-round. Here's the deal - I'll give you my opinion of the scriptural support for my position if you solemnly swear that you will, without tricks, gimmicks, or tomato-esque double talk, answer my questions...fair enough?

Just to be clear, my questions are:
1. What responsibility did this individual angel have to these specific individual churches?

2. Why did Jesus tell John to specifically write to them? 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Citadel of Truth]Just to be clear, my questions are:
1. What responsibility did this individual angel have to these specific individual churches?

2. Why did Jesus tell John to specifically write to them? [/quote]

1. They don't/didn't actually exist ergo none.

2. Literary device.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

No, how about you answer mine?

OK, I'll take one more turn on this verbal merry-go-round. Here's the deal - I'll give you my opinion of the scriptural support for my position if you solemnly swear that you will, without tricks, gimmicks, or tomato-esque double talk, answer my questions...fair enough?

Just to be clear, my questions are:
1. What responsibility did this individual angel have to these specific individual churches?

2. Why did Jesus tell John to specifically write to them?

Your OP asks this:

Jesus instructed John to write a letter to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. He was instructed to address the letter "to the angel of the church..." To whom or what do you believe this refers?

You have stated that you believe the angels are pastors.  You don't need my answers to your questions in order to support that claim with scripture.  If you can't support your claim with scripture, then there's nothing to discuss. You simply believe dogs are cats.  'nuff said. 

 

[prophet]

[quote author=Citadel of Truth]Just to be clear, my questions are:
1. What responsibility did this individual angel have to these specific individual churches?

2. Why did Jesus tell John to specifically write to them?

1. They don't/didn't actually exist ergo none.

2. Literary device.


[/quote]
This gnat is choking CoT.
Serve up Camel, and help a brutha out.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

You have stated that you believe the angels are pastors.  You don't need my answers to your questions in order to support that claim with scripture.

Translation - "I have no idea how to answer these questions. Thank God rsc2a jumped in. I'll just go with his answers." 

If you can't support your claim with scripture...

But you see, I can - just not the way you've been brainwashed into interpreting them.
Trust me, I totally understand your desire for no accountability. I guess believing that God-given authority ceased after the Old Testament was completed is a very comfortable way to live.

...then there's nothing to discuss.

I suspected that you were closing in on the limits of your rhetoric, but I thought you had at least one more go-around in you. My bad...

 

[Citadel of Truth]

[quote author=Citadel of Truth]Just to be clear, my questions are:
1. What responsibility did this individual angel have to these specific individual churches?

2. Why did Jesus tell John to specifically write to them?

1. They don't/didn't actually exist ergo none.

2. Literary device.


[/quote]

Since our friend had to go home, maybe you could offer some scriptural support for why you believe your 1 & 2 above.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Citadel of Truth]Just to be clear, my questions are:
1. What responsibility did this individual angel have to these specific individual churches?

2. Why did Jesus tell John to specifically write to them?

1. They don't/didn't actually exist ergo none.

2. Literary device.

This gnat is choking CoT.
Serve up Camel, and help a brutha out.
[/quote]

Fair enough.

CoT: "There was a man who had two sons..." Who was the man really? Answer - he didn't really exist.  Literary device.

 

[prophet]

The Angel that spoke to John....actual.
The seven spirits of God around His throne, the seven churches,  the seven angels....once in a while, numerology is ok, when it is obvious.

Want an interpretation?

Jesus did that for us:

Mystery:
A figure among seven candlesticks with seven stars in his hand.

Revelation:
The stars represent THE SEVEN angels, and the candlesticks ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES.

Now, the real question is:
Why would anyone seek to call Jesus a liar?

Rev 1:4-5
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Here, John is including Seven Spirits as his messengers, he is writing the message from them, to the churches.
This is the actual transmission process.

After this, a more literary form of the story is told.
Dragons with tails big enough to sweep trillions of lightyears-wide paths through the universe....etc.

And John writes to The Seven Spirits.

Heb 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This, on the other hand, including "all", in verse 14, is literal.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The Angel that spoke to John....actual.

The seven spirits of God around His throne, the seven churches,  the seven angels....once in a while, numerology is ok, when it is obvious.

Want an interpretation?

Jesus did that for us:

Mystery:
A figure among seven candlesticks with seven stars in his hand.

Revelation:
The stars represent THE SEVEN angels, and the candlesticks ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES.

Now, the real question is:
Why would anyone seek to call Jesus a liar?

Rev 1:4-5
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Here, John is including Seven Spirits as his messengers, he is writing the message from them, to the churches.
This is the actual transmission process.

After this, a more literary form of the story is told.
Dragons with tails big enough to sweep trillions of lightyears-wide paths through the universe....etc.

And John writes to The Seven Spirits.

Heb 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This, on the other hand, including "all", in verse 14, is literal.

Here are your answers, COT (above).  Prophet did the work for me.  I refused to take the bait because you continue to refuse to support your position, and it is YOUR position, not mine, that is the basis for this thread. 

20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Now, by all means, please give scriptural support for interpreting that to mean, "The seven stars are the pastors of the seven churches." 

And while you're at it, since you want to equate angel with "pastor/elder/deacon", please reconcile how there seem to be multiple elders for the various assemblies mentioned in the epistles, but somehow these seven "churches" only have a one-ring-to-rule-them-all MoG pastor each.  You couldn't be reading into the scripture what you want to be there, could you? 

(I put "churches" in quotes because the text reads "To the angel of the church of <location> write", which is literally, "To the angel of the called out ones of <location>.")

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]And while you're at it, since you want to equate angel with "pastor/elder/deacon", please reconcile how there seem to be multiple elders for the various assemblies mentioned in the epistles, but somehow these seven "churches" only have a one-ring-to-rule-them-all MoG pastor each.  You couldn't be reading into the scripture what you want to be there, could you?  [/quote]

Oddly, one of the seven churches is addressed in both Acts and an epistle and explicitly has multiple elders.

 

[prophet]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]And while you're at it, since you want to equate angel with "pastor/elder/deacon", please reconcile how there seem to be multiple elders for the various assemblies mentioned in the epistles, but somehow these seven "churches" only have a one-ring-to-rule-them-all MoG pastor each.  You couldn't be reading into the scripture what you want to be there, could you? 

Oddly, one of the seven churches is addressed in both Acts and an epistle and explicitly has multiple elders.
[/quote]
You couldnt be referring to the one who Timothy was instructed to say this to?

1Ti 5:21
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Could you?