Angel of the church - spiritual or physical?

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]And while you're at it, since you want to equate angel with "pastor/elder/deacon", please reconcile how there seem to be multiple elders for the various assemblies mentioned in the epistles, but somehow these seven "churches" only have a one-ring-to-rule-them-all MoG pastor each.  You couldn't be reading into the scripture what you want to be there, could you? 

Oddly, one of the seven churches is addressed in both Acts and an epistle and explicitly has multiple elders.

You couldnt be referring to the one who Timothy was instructed to say this too?

1Ti 5:21
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Could you?
[/quote]

He must be talking about the elect pastors.  As opposed to the reprobate pastors. 

 

[prophet]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]And while you're at it, since you want to equate angel with "pastor/elder/deacon", please reconcile how there seem to be multiple elders for the various assemblies mentioned in the epistles, but somehow these seven "churches" only have a one-ring-to-rule-them-all MoG pastor each.  You couldn't be reading into the scripture what you want to be there, could you? 

Oddly, one of the seven churches is addressed in both Acts and an epistle and explicitly has multiple elders.

You couldnt be referring to the one who Timothy was instructed to say this too?

1Ti 5:21
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Could you?

He must be talking about the elect pastors.  As opposed to the reprobate pastors.
[/quote]
Who he'll sort out at the , wheat from tares?

 

[rsc2a]

This:

"Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called ithe elders of the church to come to him..."

and this:

"Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you vby prophecy when the council of elders wlaid their hands on you..."

Among others.

 

[prophet]

This:

"Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called ithe elders of the church to come to him..."

and this:

"Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you vby prophecy when the council of elders wlaid their hands on you..."

Among others.

Yeah, that's him, and them.

1Ti 5:17-21
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Here are your answers, COT (above). Prophet did the work for me.

Well, wasn't that convenient? I never was content to let someone else speak for me. I guess we're all different in that aspect, huh? 

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Following are a few reasons why I believe that the angels refer to ministers of the churches rather than to heavenly angels:

As has already been mentioned, the same Greek word translated "angel" at times refers to men: John the Baptist (Matthew 11:10; Mark 1:2), John’s disciples (Luke 7:24), Jesus’ disciples (Luke 9:52), and the Israelite spies (James 2:25). Granted, someone brought up the excellent point that in these instances the translators always used the English word "messengers" and not "angels." That point was not missed by me.

John was instructed to write to these messengers. There are no other instances in the Bible where we find men writing to angelic beings.

Jesus gave this Revelation to John by His angel. "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star" (Revelation 22:16). If these messengers were heavenly angels it would mean that a heavenly angel wrote a message to other heavenly angels. Again, there is no biblical precedent for this.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it teach that a local church has a special angel messenger. It does, however teach that the church's messengers are men, either the pastor or elders or other key men. For example, the messenger of the church at Philippi was Epaphroditus. "Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants" (Philippians 2:25).

These messages from the Lord to the "angel of the church" address them as members of the churches when Jesus says, for example, to the angels of the church at Ephesus and also at Smyrna, "I know thy works" (Rev. 2:1-2, 8-9).

There is no instance in the New Testament of angels addressing churches.

If these are angelic beings, it would mean that they failed to keep God’s word perfectly, which is impossible. "Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word" (Psalm 103:20).

I realize that my whole post can be dismissed with the "literary device" card. I expect it to be so.

Good day, Gentlemen.  8)

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Citadel of Truth]These messages from the Lord to the "angel of the church" address them as members of the churches when Jesus says, for example, to the angels of the church at Ephesus and also at Smyrna, "I know thy works" (Rev. 2:1-2, 8-9).[/quote]

Even if I didn't think they are literary devices, this reasoning is really bad. 

"Tell the messenger this: blah blah blah"

The whole point would be the one dictating is not referring to the messenger,  but to the recipient.

 

[prophet]

[quote author=Citadel of Truth]These messages from the Lord to the "angel of the church" address them as members of the churches when Jesus says, for example, to the angels of the church at Ephesus and also at Smyrna, "I know thy works" (Rev. 2:1-2, 8-9).

Even if I didn't think they are literary devices, this reasoning is really bad. 

"Tell the messenger this: blah blah blah"

The whole point would be the one dictating is not referring to the messenger,  but to the recipient.
[/quote]
Right.  The secretary,  receiving dictation,  would hear the message as if he were the recipient, but would know that he isn't.

I'm amazed at how : "that never happened before Revelation" trumps Hebrews chapter 1's clear doctrinal precept, that ALL angels are spirits, and ministers for us.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Right.  The secretary,  receiving dictation,  would hear the message as if he were the recipient, but would know that he isn't.

I'm amazed at how : "that never happened before Revelation" trumps Hebrews chapter 1's clear doctrinal precept, that ALL angels are spirits, and ministers for us.

Some people are desperate to make pastors mini-popes.  And all the plain reading of scripture in the world doesn't seem to change their minds. 

 

[Citadel of Truth]

The whole point would be the one dictating is not referring to the messenger,  but to the recipient.

Right.  The secretary,  receiving dictation,  would hear the message as if he were the recipient, but would know that he isn't.

Since you two are joined at the hip, I'll submit this to both of you. Why, then, did not Jesus tell John to simply address these letters to the elders of the specific, individual, literal, local churches listed by name? Why go through an angelic being? If His message was to the church, why not give the message to the church? Where is the biblical precedent? Where is the message to the angel at the church at Jerusalem? Antioch? Hebrews 1 is not referencing a church but you and I as individual believers. 

I know, I know....literary device.  ???

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Some people are desperate to make pastors mini-popes.  And all the plain reading of scripture in the world doesn't seem to change their minds.

Some people really do not understand the issue. I pity you for never having had the privilege of being a part of a good church pastored by a man who follows the Word of God and knows what it is like to be a servant-leader like Jesus Himself was.

If you think this is all about elevating a man, you, my friend, are clueless.

 

[rsc2a]

Why did God not give His message directly to Pharaoh and go through Moses? Why did He use John the Baptist to announce Jesus?  Why use Paul as His voice to the gentiles? 

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Why did God not give His message directly to Pharaoh and go through Moses? Why did He use John the Baptist to announce Jesus?  Why use Paul as His voice to the gentiles?

Thank you. God used a man. A literal, physical, singular, human being to deliver His message. He hasn't changed.

 

[rsc2a]

Why did God not give His message directly to Pharaoh and go through Moses? Why did He use John the Baptist to announce Jesus?  Why use Paul as His voice to the gentiles?

Thank you. God used a man. A literal, physical, singular, human being to deliver His message. He hasn't changed.

See Abraham; Jacob; Daniel; the announcement of John the Baptizer; the announcement to Mary, mother of Jesus; the assurance to Joseph; the tomb; the ascension; the...

 

[Citadel of Truth]

See Abraham; Jacob; Daniel; the announcement of John the Baptizer; the announcement to Mary, mother of Jesus; the assurance to Joseph; the tomb; the ascension; the...

Sorry, these are all literary devices...
Wow, it is pretty easy to use that card even when you know it's not true!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Why doesn't it say, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the pastors say to their churches"?

 

[rsc2a]

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Why doesn't it say, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the pastors say to their churches"?

But ear means toe, and hear means stand so you have to stand on the truth as this clearly teaches, hay-men?

 

[rsc2a]

See Abraham; Jacob; Daniel; the announcement of John the Baptizer; the announcement to Mary, mother of Jesus; the assurance to Joseph; the tomb; the ascension; the...

Sorry, these are all literary devices...
Wow, it is pretty easy to use that card even when you know it's not true!

Also known as you were clearly wrong in your statement and won't own it.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Why doesn't it say, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the pastors say to their churches"?

It does:

"And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you."

"Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine."

"Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct."

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."

 

[Citadel of Truth]

See Abraham; Jacob; Daniel; the announcement of John the Baptizer; the announcement to Mary, mother of Jesus; the assurance to Joseph; the tomb; the ascension; the...

Sorry, these are all literary devices...
Wow, it is pretty easy to use that card even when you know it's not true!

Also known as you were clearly wrong in your statement and won't own it.

Hardly. If I'm wrong, you'll be the first to tell me.

God does indeed use angelic beings for very special occasions. One can hardly equate the birth of Christ with a simple letter of rebuke to a local church, can one? One calls for an angel - the other calls for a man. God uses both.