Angel of the church - spiritual or physical?

I believe the angel of the churches in Revelation 2 & 3 was/were:

  • a singular human messenger placed over the spiritual welfare of the church

    Votes: 2 50.0%
  • a plurality of human elders given the oversight of the church

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • an angelic spirit-being who could read and was held accountable for the church

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • a guardian angel for the church

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jesus Christ

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Benny Hinn

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • other

    Votes: 1 25.0%

  • Total voters
    4
[quote author=Citadel of Truth]
God does indeed use angelic beings for very special occasions. One can hardly equate the birth of Christ with a simple letter of rebuke to a local church, can one? One calls for an angel - the other calls for a man.[/quote]

And this is known as making stuff up.
 
    Tied in to the claims of apostolic succession and of divine right for the Episcopal view of church government is their interpretation of Revelation chapters two and three.  In 1593, Thomas Bilson, who would be co-editor of the 1611 edition of the KJV, maintained that St. John wrote “to the seven pastors and bishops of those seven places” (Perpetual Government of Christ's Church, p. 305).  Bilson contended that “The Lord himself in the Revelation, speaking of the bishops of the seven churches in Asia, calleth them ‘the stars and angels’ of the seven churches” (p. 101).  Bilson asserted that “St. John the evangelist wrote to the pastors of the seven churches in Asia” and that “their successors sat in the council of Nice, retaining the same place and office of bishops which their predecessors had in the apostles’ time” (p. 347).  Against the Presbyterian view, Bilson contended:  “If John in his time saw those seven churches governed by seven pastors or bishops, then was the common and equal government of presbyters before that time changed.  If Christ called them stars and angels of the churches, they were no human invention after the apostles were dead and buried” (p. 306).  Bilson wrote that “the Son of God willed St. John the apostle in his Revelation to write to the seven chief pastors of the seven churches of Asia” (p. 373).  Bilson wrote:  “By Christ’s own mouth the overseer of the church is praised under the name of an angel” (p. 178).  KJV translator Lancelot Andrewes claimed that bishops are called “by St. John (Rev. 1:20) the ’angels of the churches’” (Pattern, p. 355).  KJV translator Hadrian Saravia contended:  “For thus much is clear from the word of God; viz. that, in the time of John the Apostle, to seven Churches of Asia, had seven Bishops, set over them by Divine, not by human, appointment” (Treatise, p. 223).  Bilson asserted:  “The bishop must be pastor alone; for he is the angel of God’s church.  If the pastoral charge may be common to many, then must he have it chiefly and above all, because he is God’s angel, and superior to all” (Perpetual Government, p. 379).  Perhaps this Episcopal interpretation and claim that there was only one bishop [angel] at Ephesus could be linked to Acts 20:28 where the KJV seemed to avoid showing English readers that there were “bishops” [plural] at Ephesus.

Three of the pre-1611 English Bibles (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, and Great Bibles) had the rendering “messenger of the congregation” at some of the verses (Rev. 2:1, 12, 18; 3:1, 14) instead of “angel of the church.”  James Corcoran contended that “the Presbyterian Bibles of England had such a hatred of prelacy, that in spite of Beza, and their Puritan English prototype of Geneva [1560] they (in their editions of 1562, 1577, 1579] translated ‘messengers’ for ‘angels’” (American Catholic Quarterly Review, 1880, p. 712).  The KJV translated the same Greek word as “messenger” at Matthew 11:10, Mark 1:2, and Luke 7:27.  Would that rendering “messenger” in these two chapters have been a problem for the Episcopal and Roman Catholic interpretation that “angels“ here are “bishops“?  The 1582 Rheims has a marginal note for its annotation on Revelation 1:20--”Bishops and priests are called Angels” (p. 537).

    In one response to the Episcopal interpretation, Thomas Forrester maintained in 1699 that “the collective sense of the term angel is most suitable to Scripture” (Hierarchical Bishops, p. 70).  Forrester asserted:  “As one singular, so all the individuals of the church, both members and officers, are represented by one candlestick; and why not also, all the ministers, by one angel?” (Ibid.).  Forrester contended:  “Ephesus had many angels (Acts 20:28, 1 Tim. 5:17) of equal authority, who were made Bishops by the Holy Ghost, and set over that Church accordingly, and they are spoken to, in the plural, though the Angel is named in the singular number” (p. 72).  In his 1689 Exposition of the Whole Book of the Revelation, Hanserd Knollys wrote:  “The word [angel] in all these seven epistles, is a noun collective, comprehending all the Bishops and Presbyters, called Elders, Acts 20:17, in this Church of Ephesus, so in all the other churches of Christ in Asia, and elsewhere” (p. 19).  John Brown maintained that Jesus “addresses the angel of Smyrna, as a plurality of persons” [Rev. 2:10--”ye“] (Letters, p. 44).  Thomas Smyth wrote:  “There can be no reasonable doubt, that, by the term angel, we are to understand either the presbyters collectively, or their presiding officer, or moderator, to whom this name was applied, in the order of the Jewish synagogue” (Presbytery, p. 275).  W. D. Killen noted that “the office of the angel of the synagogue had, in fact, no resemblance whatever to that of a prelate” (Ancient Church, p. 267).  Killen maintained that “the angel was not the chief ruler of the synagogue” (Ibid.),  William Wisner wrote:  “There are strong reasons for supposing that the term angel, in the figurative language of the Apocalypse, denoted the whole body of presbyters connected with that church” (Prelacy, p. 59).     

   
 
Good stuff, logos, but they will simply take a verse out of context and say, "Should we believe God or these men you quoted?"  :o
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
Timotheos said:
Citadel of Truth said:
Jesus instructed John to write a letter to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. He was instructed to address the letter "to the angel of the church..." To whom or what do you believe this refers?
You didn't list all the options.

Angels as interpreters of God's message is a staple of apocalyptic literature, which Revelation is surely one of many in that genre. I think the discussion is veered terribly off course when you try to identify the angelus interpres. It is a genre specific element. Leave it as a literary effect... no more.

It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.
Conversely, you didn't answer the question.

The discussion is interpretation, which requires definition of the angel.
Actually... I did answer the question. Interpretation doesn't require a definition or identity to the angels. It requires that we observe the genre and realize that this is just a method in that genre (apocalyptic) of conveying divine revelation. It isn't meant to be literal or to even be identified. It is a stock symbol conveying God's message... or in this case Jesus' message.
 
Citadel of Truth said:
Timotheos said:
Leave it as a literary effect... no more.

So, there were not seven churches to whom were written seven letters and subsequently received by seven beings - spiritual or physical?

I guess John simply got bored on the Isle of Patmos and decided to write a literary masterpiece as did Herodotus and Thucydides. 
Or you could not put words in my mouth.

The literary convention of apocalyptic is to use an angelic interpreter of God's message. These churches needed to hear Jesus' message to them. So John used the literary convention specifically associated to the genre of apocalyptic to convey that message. This has a rhetorical effect giving more weight to John's message b/c he is saying it came from Jesus. But the churches were literal churches.
 
Citadel of Truth said:
rsc2a said:
See Abraham; Jacob; Daniel; the announcement of John the Baptizer; the announcement to Mary, mother of Jesus; the assurance to Joseph; the tomb; the ascension; the...

Sorry, these are all literary devices...
Wow, it is pretty easy to use that card even when you know it's not true!

Ace-in-the-hole-art2.jpg
Not sure he was doing that as he was not arguing from a genre standpoint with those illustrations. It is a literary convention b/c that is standard in the genre. And it is obvious for anyone who has read ancient apocalyptic, especially Jewish and Christian apocalyptic.
 
Citadel of Truth said:
The Rogue Tomato said:
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Why doesn't it say, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the pastors say to their churches"?

It does:

"And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you."

"Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine."

"Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct."

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."
All in the plural, by the way, if memory serves.

So plurality and equality of elders!
 
Timotheos said:
ItinerantPreacher said:
Timotheos said:
Citadel of Truth said:
Jesus instructed John to write a letter to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. He was instructed to address the letter "to the angel of the church..." To whom or what do you believe this refers?
You didn't list all the options.

Angels as interpreters of God's message is a staple of apocalyptic literature, which Revelation is surely one of many in that genre. I think the discussion is veered terribly off course when you try to identify the angelus interpres. It is a genre specific element. Leave it as a literary effect... no more.

It is remarkable how much eschatological confusion would be cleared up if people interpreted Revelation in its genre.
Conversely, you didn't answer the question.

The discussion is interpretation, which requires definition of the angel.
Actually... I did answer the question. Interpretation doesn't require a definition or identity to the angels. It requires that we observe the genre and realize that this is just a method in that genre (apocalyptic) of conveying divine revelation. It isn't meant to be literal or to even be identified. It is a stock symbol conveying God's message... or in this case Jesus' message.
When you do this, you open the scriptures up to interpretations that are untrue.

For example, being born again

Or the animal sacrifices. It would be just as east to say that the animal sacrifices never happened, that this was a literary device that the genre of writing used to convey the message.

Or the flood.

Or creation.

What stops me from applying your technique to any scripture I want?
 
Genre. You know,  one of the most basic things to consider when looking at context.
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
When you do this, you open the scriptures up to interpretations that are untrue.

For example, being born again

Or the animal sacrifices. It would be just as east to say that the animal sacrifices never happened, that this was a literary device that the genre of writing used to convey the message.

Or the flood.

Or creation.

What stops me from applying your technique to any scripture I want?

Nothing.  Go crazy.  For example, come up with the moronic notion that "to the angel" in Revelation means "to the pastor".  Just wallpaper your modern idea of how it should be over what it actually says, and nobody will notice the difference. 

 
The Rogue Tomato said:
ItinerantPreacher said:
When you do this, you open the scriptures up to interpretations that are untrue.

For example, being born again

Or the animal sacrifices. It would be just as east to say that the animal sacrifices never happened, that this was a literary device that the genre of writing used to convey the message.

Or the flood.

Or creation.

What stops me from applying your technique to any scripture I want?

Nothing.  Go crazy.  For example, come up with the moronic notion that "to the angel" in Revelation means "to the pastor".  Just wallpaper your modern idea of how it should be over what it actually says, and nobody will notice the difference.

Your idea of modern and mine are a little different
Matthew Poole 1624-1679
Chapter Introduction

Some things are to be observed of all the epistles, before we come to the particular epistles.

1. God's writing in this form, (as a man to his friend), speaks Christ's love to the church, his spouse.

2. There were not seven books written, but one book in which these seven epistles were, out of which each church, or the church in its several periods, might learn what concerned it.

3. These epistles concerning matters of faith and manners, are written plainly, not in mysterious expressions.

4. The scope of them all is to instruct, reprove, commend, and comfort.

5. They are all directed to the ministers of the churches, as their heads, but the matter concerns the whole church.

100 years before that Tyndale used the term "messenger of the congregation".

Modern idea? Not so much.
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
The Rogue Tomato said:
ItinerantPreacher said:
When you do this, you open the scriptures up to interpretations that are untrue.

For example, being born again

Or the animal sacrifices. It would be just as east to say that the animal sacrifices never happened, that this was a literary device that the genre of writing used to convey the message.

Or the flood.

Or creation.

What stops me from applying your technique to any scripture I want?

Nothing.  Go crazy.  For example, come up with the moronic notion that "to the angel" in Revelation means "to the pastor".  Just wallpaper your modern idea of how it should be over what it actually says, and nobody will notice the difference.

Your idea of modern and mine are a little different
Matthew Poole 1624-1679
Chapter Introduction

Some things are to be observed of all the epistles, before we come to the particular epistles.

1. God's writing in this form, (as a man to his friend), speaks Christ's love to the church, his spouse.

2. There were not seven books written, but one book in which these seven epistles were, out of which each church, or the church in its several periods, might learn what concerned it.

3. These epistles concerning matters of faith and manners, are written plainly, not in mysterious expressions.

4. The scope of them all is to instruct, reprove, commend, and comfort.

5. They are all directed to the ministers of the churches, as their heads, but the matter concerns the whole church.

100 years before that Tyndale used the term "messenger of the congregation".

Modern idea? Not so much.
The problem lies in the fact that there were never any instructions given, not one solitary verse, to any local assembly, to appoint a head other than Christ.

In light of this, the whole angel = pastor argument  is made up out of whole cloth.
In fact, Revelation would be so contrary to the other epistles, that one would doubt its authenticity, over this one issue alone.

No, there is no "undershepherd" "earthly head", etc., but rather elders (pl) in every city (sing.)
And angel means "angel" every time it says "angel".

But, try explaining anything to a Nicolaitan who thinks that "all may prophesy" means "only one of you is our messenger".

Flesh and blood cannot reveal this to you, but the Spirit of God.
 
prophet said:
The problem lies in the fact that there were never any instructions given, not one solitary verse, to any local assembly, to appoint a head other than Christ.

In light of this, the whole angel = pastor argument  is made up out of whole cloth.
In fact, Revelation would be so contrary to the other epistles, that one would doubt its authenticity, over this one issue alone.

No, there is no "undershepherd" "earthly head", etc., but rather elders (pl) in every city (sing.)
And angel means "angel" every time it says "angel".

But, try explaining anything to a Nicolaitan who thinks that "all may prophesy" means "only one of you is our messenger".

Flesh and blood cannot reveal this to you, but the Spirit of God.

You beat me to it.  And your argument is more important than mine. 

I was simply going to point out that there's only one mention of the word "pastor" in the NT, and it's plural.  The five occurrences of "deacons" are all plural.  There are 64 references to elders in the NT, and all but four are plural.  Of the few references to elder, singular, they are addressing a person, not a role.  For example, "1 The Elder, To the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth: 2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health". 

There are ZERO, 0, count 'em, ZERO, occurrences of the phrase "to the elder/pastor/deacon of the church in <location>".  Zero.  Zilch.  Nada. 

The whole concept of a single pastor leader of a congregation was foreign to the people of NT times.  The only way you can even imagine (although it's a zany notion anyway) that "to the angel of <location>" means "to the pastor" is if you impose your current (and wrong) view of an assembly structure on Revelation. 

 
Arguing single vs multiple rule is simply detracting from the point. This is your hobby horse prophet, but whether you and I ever agree on that, was the "angel of the church" an earthly representative or not? That is the question at hand, not plurality of elders. Was the angel then the presbytery? You can ride your hobby horse all day long, but it is not the question asked in the thread. It is however the statement or question you turn every thread into. You are as guilty of hobby horsing as the pastor who preaches on "women and pants" every sermon, or "Calvin said" every sermon. If you don't like hobby horsers, don't be one. Start a thread on the plurality of elders if you want, but this thread is not about the plurality of elders.
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
Arguing single vs multiple rule is simply detracting from the point.

Not at all.  Revelation says, "To the angel of..." not "To the angels of". 

That right there tells you it isn't referring to pastors, elders or deacons.  Nobody wrote "to the pastor".  But there are plenty of examples of writing "to the elders". 

As if you needed that, since the word "angel" should have been your first clue. 

 
ItinerantPreacher said:
When you do this, you open the scriptures up to interpretations that are untrue.

For example, being born again

Or the animal sacrifices. It would be just as east to say that the animal sacrifices never happened, that this was a literary device that the genre of writing used to convey the message.

Or the flood.

Or creation.

What stops me from applying your technique to any scripture I want?
As rsc2a said... GENRE!!!

Like I said in my first post on this thread... if Christians (particularly evangelicals) would read Rev. in light of its genre, so much eschatological confusion would be cleared up. And Nic Cage wouldn't be starring in a dumb Lahaye movie ;)
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
Arguing single vs multiple rule is simply detracting from the point. This is your hobby horse prophet, but whether you and I ever agree on that, was the "angel of the church" an earthly representative or not? That is the question at hand, not plurality of elders. Was the angel then the presbytery? You can ride your hobby horse all day long, but it is not the question asked in the thread. It is however the statement or question you turn every thread into. You are as guilty of hobby horsing as the pastor who preaches on "women and pants" every sermon, or "Calvin said" every sermon. If you don't like hobby horsers, don't be one. Start a thread on the plurality of elders if you want, but this thread is not about the plurality of elders.
On the contrary, this thread is very much about Nicolaitan vs multiple elders.

The only possible reason that one would entertain the idea that these angels weren't exactly what Jesus told John that they are, is that they had a preconcieved notion that there is a single human head of a local assembly.

Remove this completely baseless idea, from the equation, and you remove the purpose for this thread.

By the way, I'm sure, by the timing of the OP, that this debate was being invited, or zeroed in on.

As to the "hobby horse":
When God says He hates something more than once, I pay attention.


Now, can you actually address the part of my posts that you are saying is relevant:
the clear teaching of the role of angels in Hebrews 1?
 
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