Are the numerous mass shootings an evidence of America's moral decline?

[JrChurch]

Veering back to the OP....I think moral decline (sin) leads to killing, but I think the MASS shooting is due to the gun-free zones. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Yeah, I'm sure there are special situations but little kids don't need phones let alone smartphones.  Of course, I'm old school enough to think that phones should be phones and computers should be computers.  Okay I admit it, I'm just technically challenged but still.   

Kids are definitely over sexed.  And I know that there was a time when people slept in close quarters as families and they were aware of what was going on and all that, but this is different.  It's not even wholesome ideas of sex being thrown at them.  Which brings us back to the OP and the infamous recently public twerking.  Nobody needs (or really wants) to see that but there it was, just displayed in front of families who weren't expecting it.  I don't have a problem with teaching age appropriate sex ed to kids.  That's education.  But kids are getting a lot more thrown on them than is healthy.  From all directions.  But like I said in another post, there's nothing new under the sun.  If you follow the history of erotica it goes back thousands of years.  From carvings and artwork to erotic sculptures in ancient temples, all displayed for anyone, children included, to see.  Kids are more aware of perverse things than probably their grandparents were but maybe less than children from say 1000 years ago or more where perversions were prevalent.  I've never charted it but I suspect it's rather cyclical.  Perhaps in response to the previous generations views on sex?  I don't know.  We don't need uneducated prudish people, but we don't need a total lack of decorum either.  Can't we just find a nice healthy medium?   

I find much agreement with this post, so I'll just change the subject and ask who has taken over your keyboard?

 

[ThatGirl]

Veering back to the OP....I think moral decline (sin) leads to killing, but I think the MASS shooting is due to the gun-free zones.

That ^^^ right there.  You'll notice they aren't walking into police stations and shooting at people. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Veering back to the OP....I think moral decline (sin) leads to killing, but I think the MASS shooting is due to the gun-free zones.

Wait, maybe I don't understand the terminology "gun free zones", but if I do, I disagree with you.  Putting more guns in people's hands ain't gonna change the hearts or especially minds of the mentally ill, and if the stats are right, many of these folk are not just evil, but are truly classically mentally ill.

 

[ThatGirl]

Yeah, I'm sure there are special situations but little kids don't need phones let alone smartphones.  Of course, I'm old school enough to think that phones should be phones and computers should be computers.  Okay I admit it, I'm just technically challenged but still.   

Kids are definitely over sexed.  And I know that there was a time when people slept in close quarters as families and they were aware of what was going on and all that, but this is different.  It's not even wholesome ideas of sex being thrown at them.  Which brings us back to the OP and the infamous recently public twerking.  Nobody needs (or really wants) to see that but there it was, just displayed in front of families who weren't expecting it.  I don't have a problem with teaching age appropriate sex ed to kids.  That's education.  But kids are getting a lot more thrown on them than is healthy.  From all directions.  But like I said in another post, there's nothing new under the sun.  If you follow the history of erotica it goes back thousands of years.  From carvings and artwork to erotic sculptures in ancient temples, all displayed for anyone, children included, to see.  Kids are more aware of perverse things than probably their grandparents were but maybe less than children from say 1000 years ago or more where perversions were prevalent.  I've never charted it but I suspect it's rather cyclical.  Perhaps in response to the previous generations views on sex?  I don't know.  We don't need uneducated prudish people, but we don't need a total lack of decorum either.  Can't we just find a nice healthy medium?   

I find much agreement with this post, so I'll just change the subject and ask who has taken over your keyboard?

LOL!  I've never said anything different. I'm a mom.  My kids are all grown now but I tried to deflect the over-sexualization from them as much as possible.  From TV to their peers to inappropriate billboard ads, etc. 

 

[ThatGirl]

Veering back to the OP....I think moral decline (sin) leads to killing, but I think the MASS shooting is due to the gun-free zones.

Wait, maybe I don't understand the terminology "gun free zones", but if I do, I disagree with you.  Putting more guns in people's hands ain't gonna change the hearts or especially minds of the mentally ill, and if the stats are right, many of these folk are not just evil, but are truly classically mentally ill.

That is true but if you have one troubled person who tries to kill a lot of people, the more responsibly armed citizens you have there, the less fatalities that troubled person is going to be able to tally.  If a troubled shooter has 12 guns pointed back at him his odds have just diminished. 

 

[Gringo]

Veering back to the OP....I think moral decline (sin) leads to killing, but I think the MASS shooting is due to the gun-free zones.

If it was a gun free zone, how did TROUBLED man with a criminal past get into a gun free zon WITH A GUN? 12 years after 9-11, are we still manned by Barney Fife?

 

[ThatGirl]

Veering back to the OP....I think moral decline (sin) leads to killing, but I think the MASS shooting is due to the gun-free zones.

If it was a gun free zone, how did TROUBLED man with a criminal past get into a gun free zon WITH A GUN? 12 years after 9-11, are we still manned by Barney Fife?

I think it's because no matter how hard we try to pretend, we cannot be totally safe.  The NSA tried to justify spying on US citizens saying it was for our safety.  But that didn't stop the Boston bombers.  We can put all kinds of safety measures in place but evil people will always find a way around it.  That's why it's so important that we don't trade our liberty for safety that can never really be obtained anyway. 

 

[ThatGirl]

Veering back to the OP....I think moral decline (sin) leads to killing, but I think the MASS shooting is due to the gun-free zones.

If it was a gun free zone, how did TROUBLED man with a criminal past get into a gun free zon WITH A GUN? 12 years after 9-11, are we still manned by Barney Fife?

I think it's because no matter how hard we try to pretend, we cannot be totally safe.  The NSA tried to justify spying on US citizens saying it was for our safety.  But that didn't stop the Boston bombers.  We can put all kinds of safety measures in place but evil people will always find a way around it.  That's why it's so important that we don't trade our liberty for safety that can never really be obtained anyway.

The only people who follow the rules are the good people.  That's why it's so important to not restrict them. 

 

[Gringo]

That Girl,

You seem like a wise girl. I certainly agree with you: we don't need to be trading our liberty for safety.

 

[JrChurch]

Those who are evil and/or demented and choose to kill are usually stopped by a bullet(s).  They know that.  If they shoot at a group of unarmed people (aka targets) they can kill more people before an armed person kills them. 

When I heard the shooting was taking place, I felt an instant chill because the last time we were at that base, I remembered its high walls which would inhibit escape.  Imagine highly-trained military members taking cover behind doors and under tables with no weapons available for defense.  My husband was still in the Navy when President Clinton enacted a ban on personal weapons on military installations.  And there was a time when Naval officers could be armed in uniform on base.  That man knew the base (as Hasan knew Ft Hood) and was quite confident that he could find a place overlooking the cafeteria and pick off unarmed human beings. 

The military is savvy when it comes to safeguarding the gates from bomb-laden vehicles, mainly because of the horrific bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut.  What are they going to do to safeguard people on military bases now that "workplace" violence has spread?

And gun-free zones are ideal targets: malls, elementary schools, Amish class rooms, medical facilities in Army bases and cafeterias in Navy bases. 

 

[Gringo]

Those who are evil and/or demented and choose to kill are usually stopped by a bullet(s).  They know that.  If they shoot at a group of unarmed people (aka targets) they can kill more people before an armed person kills them. 

When I heard the shooting was taking place, I felt an instant chill because the last time we were at that base, I remembered its high walls which would inhibit escape.  Imagine highly-trained military members taking cover behind doors and under tables with no weapons available for defense.  My husband was still in the Navy when President Clinton enacted a ban on personal weapons on military installations.  And there was a time when Naval officers could be armed in uniform on base.  That man knew the base (as Hasan knew Ft Hood) and was quite confident that he could find a place overlooking the cafeteria and pick off unarmed human beings. 

The military is savvy when it comes to safeguarding the gates from bomb-laden vehicles, mainly because of the horrific bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut.  What are they going to do to safeguard people on military bases now that "workplace" violence has spread?

And gun-free zones are ideal targets: malls, elementary schools, Amish class rooms, medical facilities in Army bases and cafeterias in Navy bases.

Yes ma'am, but what I don't understand is: doesn't that facility have some sort of procedure in place, like airports do, to check you as you enter a GUN FREE ZONE to make sure you don't have a gun?

Recently, I had to go to see a lawyer whose office was on the third floor of the federal court house. I had to empty all my pockets and be patted down. It just seems like to me, in this day in which we live with all of the violence that we have, that a facility that doesn't allow guns would have some procedure in place to MAKE SURE OF THAT. I just don't understand how this man got in there with the guns if it is a gun free zone.

 

[Izdaari]

Legalized pot and legalized gay marriage are two things I voted for in WA's last general election (both passed, btw). I am of course against mass murders. Shacking up and twerking I'd have to take on a case-by-case basis. But the clips I've seen of Miley Cyrus' VMA award performance were not good, though I have enjoyed some of her work before.

No offense, but you're an outlier (admittedly not even an evangelical).

An outlier? Yes, in this group I suppose I am. There aren't many libertarian emergent Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians here, are there? 

 

[Izdaari]

Exactly!  Not better, not worse but different.  Also, just because fundies say a thing is morally wrong doesn't make it morally wrong.

I mentioned legalized pot, legalized gay marriage, shacking up, twerking, and mass murders.  Which one of these are morally acceptable to you?  If you answer "none of them" does that make you a fundy?

I vote in favor of legalized pot as well as legalized gay marriage.  I see no evidence that shacking up is "the standard" as you say.  It simply occurs.  It has always been a part of society.  Of all the thousands of couples I know I think only two of them are not married but I'd have to do some thinking on that.  It certainly isn't "the standard".  And as has already been stated, twerking is not socially acceptable outside of ones own bedroom.  And mass shootings...who isn't against mass shootings?  I see that as more of a result of declaring gun free zones and announcing to anyone who is troubled that this is the place where you can do the most damage.  Once upon a time we didn't have gun free zones and people knew they couldn't just walk into a place and shoot people up without being overtaken. 

Agreed about the effect of gun-free zones.  :

 

[Izdaari]

Good points.  The good old days weren't always very good.

True, and on the subject of morality, I don't want to encourage anyone to study something if it might be to much for them but if you've ever researched the history of pornography then you know there truly is nothing new under the sun.

Yeah, if you spank me while you're awake, My Le Creuset French oven will take care of you while you're asleep.  Silly goombah...

I'm not that patient. I go with fists, feet, elbows and knees. And let's see how your spanking does against my arm bars and choke holds...

 

[Izdaari]

I'm only 44 years old, but in my short lifetime it seems the moral fabric of America has undergone monumental changes.  Pot is now good.  Gay is okay, even better than okay.  Shacking up is the standard now.  Twerking, jerking, going birzerking....absolute insanity and constant shifting sands with no moral anchor.  The fruit of postmodern relativistic thought.  So, do you think that these mass shootings are fruit from a generation of nihilists, rationalists, and skeptics that is coming to the natural conclusion that life is ultimately meaningless, so it don't matter if I vent my rage and take other folk out with me?

As the forum red headed step child, I want to weigh in:


I am embarrassed ( I think) to say that I don't have the faintest idea what "twerking" is. I assume it is something sexual. How ironic it is that as the most "immoral" person on this forum, I have never once in my whole life smoked a cigarette of any kind, never once been intoxicated from ANY drug, whether it was drunk, smoked, injested or injected.

But my concern, prompting me to post here, has nothing to do with "sin" or moral declination.

I voted for that Osama person the first time. But by the time the second time rolled around, I had changed my mind. And I have been watching what has been going on in his Amerika. I know this is awfully cynical of me and I hope some of you will set me straight and show me how I am wrong BECAUSE I WANT TO BE WRONG

But Alayman, I am not so much convinced that the numerous mass shootings are an evidence of America's "moral decline" so much as they are evidence of a conspiracy to make America WANT to give up its arms. I hate to be so paranoid and cynical but I can't help but notice that the shooter was killed immediately and can never deny that he did this as the DIShonest press tells us all about him. The killer of those children in that school last year is DEAD while the Obama regime and its henchmen go on about gun control.

Before one says they can't possibly be that evil, remember Bengazhi and their question "what difference does it make?"

I sure hope I am wrong. ( I don't think I have ever been this politically pessimistic in my life)



Gringo

Alas, I cannot honestly say you are wrong.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Veering back to the OP....I think moral decline (sin) leads to killing, but I think the MASS shooting is due to the gun-free zones.

Absolutely.  That's the one thing most of the recent mass shootings have in common.  They take place where nobody has a gun to defend himself. 

That's the stupidest thing of all about Fort Hood and now this Navy place.  Thanks to Bill Clinton, the military is disarmed on their own bases. 

Incidentally, that's the one thing Mother Jones got wrong in its assessment of mass shootings.  It doesn't take into account situations where someone goes in to commit a mass shooting and only 3 or less people are killed BECAUSE a good guy with a gun stopped it before it got out of control. 

 

[Ransom]

As an aside, I wonder where everyone gets their pot?  I know it's commonplace in schools, even high schools.  But I haven't even seen the stuff since college.

Judging by the transient odours floating around downtown, they get it from slack-jawed teenagers.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

As an aside, I wonder where everyone gets their pot?  I know it's commonplace in schools, even high schools.  But I haven't even seen the stuff since college.

Judging by the transient odours floating around downtown, they get it from slack-jawed teenagers.

Where do the slack-jawed teenagers get it?  My point is that, unless someone is growing it themselves, someone has to know a drug cartel dealer, or a mob distributor, no?  I can't imagine wanting to deal with one of those guys. 

Also, as I said, I don't know anyone who has pot.  If they have it, they don't advertise that fact.  Maybe in Canada it's more prevalent, which is why you smell it downtown.  I don't smell it anywhere except a rock concert and I haven't been to one of those in decades. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Veering back to the OP....I think moral decline (sin) leads to killing, but I think the MASS shooting is due to the gun-free zones.

Absolutely.  That's the one thing most of the recent mass shootings have in common.  They take place where nobody has a gun to defend himself. 

That's the stupidest thing of all about Fort Hood and now this Navy place.  Thanks to Bill Clinton, the military is disarmed on their own bases. 

Incidentally, that's the one thing Mother Jones got wrong in its assessment of mass shootings.  It doesn't take into account situations where someone goes in to commit a mass shooting and only 3 or less people are killed BECAUSE a good guy with a gun stopped it before it got out of control.

I like my right to bear arms, and generally agree that it takes a good guy with a gun to bring down a bad guy on a spree, but where can I access data that speaks about your last paragraph?  When have spree killings been stopped by a civilian or law enforcement prior to killing intended masses?  And how would their intentions be known that they were preempted from killing scores more?