Be imitators/followers of Paul

[ALAYMAN]

Recently some freebird folk have protested the Apostle's words "be ye followers of me even as I also am of Christ".  They have done so under the auspices that to follow any man will eventually lead a person into imitation of one who will show the wrong path in some manner or another.  Though I agree completely that all humans are prone to sinful faults, the Scriptures are replete with injunctions to observe more mature believers and learn from them.  Here are just a few examples of how the Apostle Paul told those who were under his spiritual tutelage to imitate/follow his doctrine and/or example.  Notice how Paul wields the authority of one who has been delegated the power to command others to observe and learn from his life examples and teachings....

1Co 11:1  Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1Co 11:2  Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

1Co 4:14  I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co 4:15  For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 4:16  Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1Co 4:17  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

Gal 4:12  Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
Gal 4:13  Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
Gal 4:14  And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:15  Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
Gal 4:16  Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Php 3:17  Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

1Th 1:6  And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

2Th 3:7  For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th 3:8  Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2Th 3:9  Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

 

[Bruh]

I can agree with what you say but IMO, where people mess up or get it wrong is when the ONLY people they apply this to is the pastor or those on staff.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I can agree with what you say but IMO, where people mess up or get it wrong is when the ONLY people they apply this to is the pastor or those on staff.

Yes, a VERY good point, and one worth exploring a bit more.  If I am hearing you right, the HAC (and similar MoG ministry-types) put the preacher-boys and those in "full time vocational ministry" on a different (more "elite") plain, and essentially make a clergy-laity distinction.  That is a serious error indeed, because there are spiritual giants in the pews AND in the pulpits worth following (or in some contrary cases, worth avoiding)

 

[Bruh]

Follow me as I follow Crist sermons, that I have ever heard are related to pastor and or staff never not one time have I heard one when the pastor and or staff is not mentioned.

Preach one that only mentions laymen.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Follow me as I follow Crist sermons, that I have ever heard are related to pastor and or staff never not one time have I heard one when the pastor and or staff is not mentioned.

Preach one that only mentions laymen.

Imbalance in either direction is unhealthy, but if ya wanna hear one that deals with more than just those in fulltime ministry ya can come hear it tomorrow evening at ALAYMAN's Baptist Church.

 

[Bruh]

Follow me as I follow Crist sermons, that I have ever heard are related to pastor and or staff never not one time have I heard one when the pastor and or staff is not mentioned.

Preach one that only mentions laymen.

Imbalance in either direction is unhealthy, but if ya wanna hear one that deals with more than just those in fulltime ministry ya can come hear it tomorrow evening at ALAYMAN's Baptist Church.

But there's never imbalance in either direction only one.

 

[ALAYMAN]

But there's never imbalance in either direction only one.

I wasn't denying what you've experienced, but when you said "Preach one that only mentions laymen" I was just saying that to preach a sermon referencing only "laymen" would also be imbalanced.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not too many Pauls around. I can trust following Paul. Everyone else.. not so much.

In fact I have the words of Paul. I follow them. I don't need the words of another. Your logic is flawed to begin with. We have no need to follow others. We already have pure examples from the Scriptures themselves.

Are saying we should add to what Paul said by saying..... follow me because I follow Paul? We already have Paul. I don't need you....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Not too many Pauls around. I can trust following Paul. Everyone else.. not so much.

In fact I have the words of Paul. I follow them. I don't need the words of another. Your logic is flawed to begin with. We have no need to follow others. We already have pure examples from the Scriptures themselves.

Are saying we should add to what Paul said by saying..... follow me because I follow Paul? We already have Paul. I don't need you....

We have Jesus.  Let's follow Him. 

Besides, we've already been over this.  The verse is saying "imitate how I follow Christ," not, "follow me while I follow Christ" or "follow me in the same way that I follow Christ". 

 

[prophet]

Not too many Pauls around. I can trust following Paul. Everyone else.. not so much.

In fact I have the words of Paul. I follow them. I don't need the words of another. Your logic is flawed to begin with. We have no need to follow others. We already have pure examples from the Scriptures themselves.

Are saying we should add to what Paul said by saying..... follow me because I follow Paul? We already have Paul. I don't need you....

We have Jesus.  Let's follow Him. 

Besides, we've already been over this.  The verse is saying "imitate how I follow Christ," not, "follow me while I follow Christ" or "follow me in the same way that I follow Christ".

There was once a gift, doubling as an office, called "Apostle".
Gift, because God gave them to the Church.
Office, because they were appointed by God himself, personally chosen, witnesses of the resurrected Christ.

They had unquestioning positions as leaders of the early church.

No such authority exists now.....

Earnestly Contend

 

[ALAYMAN]

Not too many Pauls around. I can trust following Paul. Everyone else.. not so much.

In fact I have the words of Paul. I follow them. I don't need the words of another. Your logic is flawed to begin with. We have no need to follow others. We already have pure examples from the Scriptures themselves.

Are saying we should add to what Paul said by saying..... follow me because I follow Paul? We already have Paul. I don't need you....

That same Paul, to that same Timothy, said....

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Seems Paul not only wrote to influence Timothy to follow his example, but to teach others that would come after Timothy to do the same.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Not too many Pauls around. I can trust following Paul. Everyone else.. not so much.

In fact I have the words of Paul. I follow them. I don't need the words of another. Your logic is flawed to begin with. We have no need to follow others. We already have pure examples from the Scriptures themselves.

Are saying we should add to what Paul said by saying..... follow me because I follow Paul? We already have Paul. I don't need you....

We have Jesus.  Let's follow Him. 

Besides, we've already been over this.  The verse is saying "imitate how I follow Christ," not, "follow me while I follow Christ" or "follow me in the same way that I follow Christ".

Not only were you wrong then, but you fail to acknowledge that Paul commanded those to "imitate" him in numerous passages, passages in which the construct can NOT have a rendering that you wrongly suggest.  And Paul was not suggesting we follow him instead of Jesus, but follow him as he demonstrates Jesus.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not too many Pauls around. I can trust following Paul. Everyone else.. not so much.

In fact I have the words of Paul. I follow them. I don't need the words of another. Your logic is flawed to begin with. We have no need to follow others. We already have pure examples from the Scriptures themselves.

Are saying we should add to what Paul said by saying..... follow me because I follow Paul? We already have Paul. I don't need you....

That same Paul, to that same Timothy, said....

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Seems Paul not only wrote to influence Timothy to follow his example, but to teach others that would come after Timothy to do the same.

You really missed that didn't.you....

Okay. I'll follow Paul's example found in the Scriptures just like he told Timothy and others to do.

His message wasn't to follow Timothy and then others. His message was still to follow me. You're dishonestly changng the message.

Besides... A great apostasy took place after the death of the apostles. An apostasy that saw practically no information being recorded in history for almost 100 years following the words of Paul you reference. We shouldn't follow such an example of those you're referencing. We can go to the source. Paul and Jesus.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Not too many Pauls around. I can trust following Paul. Everyone else.. not so much.

In fact I have the words of Paul. I follow them. I don't need the words of another. Your logic is flawed to begin with. We have no need to follow others. We already have pure examples from the Scriptures themselves.

Are saying we should add to what Paul said by saying..... follow me because I follow Paul? We already have Paul. I don't need you....

That same Paul, to that same Timothy, said....

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Seems Paul not only wrote to influence Timothy to follow his example, but to teach others that would come after Timothy to do the same.

You really missed that didn't.you....

Okay. I'll follow Paul's example found in the Scriptures just like he told Timothy and others to do.

His message was to follow Timothy and then others. His message was still to follow me. You're dishonestly chnagng the message.

Besides... A great apostacy took place after the death of the apostles. An apostasy that saw practically no information. Being recorded in history for almost 100 years following the words of Paul you reference. We shouldn't follow such an example of those you're referencing. We can go to the source. Paul and Jesus.

Paul told those Noble Bereans to prove everything he said, whether it be true according to the Scriptures.  That process is no different than today.  A person/leader can call upon others to follow their example in word and deed but in doing so they should verify if that conduct matches up with Scriptures.

 

[Recovering IFB]

You really keep pressing to get people to follow a man, you'll even pervert the Scriptures to do so
I'll follow Jesus,
" John 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not too many Pauls around. I can trust following Paul. Everyone else.. not so much.

In fact I have the words of Paul. I follow them. I don't need the words of another. Your logic is flawed to begin with. We have no need to follow others. We already have pure examples from the Scriptures themselves.

Are saying we should add to what Paul said by saying..... follow me because I follow Paul? We already have Paul. I don't need you....

That same Paul, to that same Timothy, said....

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Seems Paul not only wrote to influence Timothy to follow his example, but to teach others that would come after Timothy to do the same.

You really missed that didn't.you....

Okay. I'll follow Paul's example found in the Scriptures just like he told Timothy and others to do.

His message was to follow Timothy and then others. His message was still to follow me. You're dishonestly chnagng the message.

Besides... A great apostacy took place after the death of the apostles. An apostasy that saw practically no information. Being recorded in history for almost 100 years following the words of Paul you reference. We shouldn't follow such an example of those you're referencing. We can go to the source. Paul and Jesus.

Paul told those Noble Bereans to prove everything he said, whether it be true according to the Scriptures.  That process is no different than today.  A person/leader can call upon others to follow their example in word and deed but in doing so they should verify if that conduct matches up with Scriptures.

You're deflecting. We have our examples in the Scriptures to follow. In my ministry, I ask people to follow them. Not to follow me. I'm not worth following. Jesus.... the apostles.... that's another story.

I try to be an example but I fail. I consistently and repeatedly fail. Time and time again. My message and I think everyone's message.... is to get it from the source. Don't get from anywhere else... .but the source. If you'll follow Jesus and the apostle Paul.... then you don't need anything else. Enjoy the wondrous example you have before you in the Scriptures. Such men don't exist anymore. You're kidding yourself if you think they do....

 

[ALAYMAN]

You really keep pressing to get people to follow a man, you'll even pervert the Scriptures to do so
I'll follow Jesus,
" John 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Of course what that verse does NOT say is "don't follow me through any of my appointed means", contrary to that sentiment the Savior explicitly told Peter to "feed my sheep".  Now you can choose to believe that Jesus was telling Peter to go to cooking school if you want, but you'd be just as wrong as you usually are.

By the way, it's ironic that you say I depart from Scriptures when I cited no less than about a half a dozen of them from just the Apostle Paul (there are more)  that explicitly state what I am contending, but you interacted with exactly ZERO of them.  Typical for your style of conversation.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Not too many Pauls around. I can trust following Paul. Everyone else.. not so much.

In fact I have the words of Paul. I follow them. I don't need the words of another. Your logic is flawed to begin with. We have no need to follow others. We already have pure examples from the Scriptures themselves.

Are saying we should add to what Paul said by saying..... follow me because I follow Paul? We already have Paul. I don't need you....

That same Paul, to that same Timothy, said....

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Seems Paul not only wrote to influence Timothy to follow his example, but to teach others that would come after Timothy to do the same.

You really missed that didn't.you....

Okay. I'll follow Paul's example found in the Scriptures just like he told Timothy and others to do.

His message was to follow Timothy and then others. His message was still to follow me. You're dishonestly chnagng the message.

Besides... A great apostacy took place after the death of the apostles. An apostasy that saw practically no information. Being recorded in history for almost 100 years following the words of Paul you reference. We shouldn't follow such an example of those you're referencing. We can go to the source. Paul and Jesus.

Paul told those Noble Bereans to prove everything he said, whether it be true according to the Scriptures.  That process is no different than today.  A person/leader can call upon others to follow their example in word and deed but in doing so they should verify if that conduct matches up with Scriptures.

You're deflecting. We have our examples in the Scriptures to follow. In my ministry, I ask people to follow them. Not to follow me. I'm not worth following. Jesus.... the apostles.... that's another story.

I try to be an example but I fail. I consistently and repeatedly fail. Time and time again. My message and I think everyone's message.... is to get it from the source. Don't get from anywhere else... .but the source. If you'll follow Jesus and the apostle Paul.... then you don't need anything else. Enjoy the wondrous example you have before you in the Scriptures. Such men don't exist anymore. You're kidding yourself if you think they do....

Yet Paul said he was the chiefest of sinners, bickering with John Mark to the point of going their separate ways, admitting he was nothing more than a man who put his pants on the same way you and I do.  Plenty of examples could be given in Scripture of men who did supernatural things, were mightily blessed of God in a unique way, but nonetheless showed the normal pattern of moral leadership to mentor those who would come under his influence.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not too many Pauls around. I can trust following Paul. Everyone else.. not so much.

In fact I have the words of Paul. I follow them. I don't need the words of another. Your logic is flawed to begin with. We have no need to follow others. We already have pure examples from the Scriptures themselves.

Are saying we should add to what Paul said by saying..... follow me because I follow Paul? We already have Paul. I don't need you....

That same Paul, to that same Timothy, said....

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Seems Paul not only wrote to influence Timothy to follow his example, but to teach others that would come after Timothy to do the same.

You really missed that didn't.you....

Okay. I'll follow Paul's example found in the Scriptures just like he told Timothy and others to do.

His message was to follow Timothy and then others. His message was still to follow me. You're dishonestly chnagng the message.

Besides... A great apostacy took place after the death of the apostles. An apostasy that saw practically no information. Being recorded in history for almost 100 years following the words of Paul you reference. We shouldn't follow such an example of those you're referencing. We can go to the source. Paul and Jesus.

Paul told those Noble Bereans to prove everything he said, whether it be true according to the Scriptures.  That process is no different than today.  A person/leader can call upon others to follow their example in word and deed but in doing so they should verify if that conduct matches up with Scriptures.

You're deflecting. We have our examples in the Scriptures to follow. In my ministry, I ask people to follow them. Not to follow me. I'm not worth following. Jesus.... the apostles.... that's another story.

I try to be an example but I fail. I consistently and repeatedly fail. Time and time again. My message and I think everyone's message.... is to get it from the source. Don't get from anywhere else... .but the source. If you'll follow Jesus and the apostle Paul.... then you don't need anything else. Enjoy the wondrous example you have before you in the Scriptures. Such men don't exist anymore. You're kidding yourself if you think they do....

Yet Paul said he was the chiefest of sinners, bickering with John Mark to the point of going their separate ways, admitting he was nothing more than a man who put his pants on the same way you and I do.  Plenty of examples could be given in Scripture of men who did supernatural things, were mightily blessed of God in a unique way, but nonetheless showed the normal pattern of moral leadership to mentor those who would come under his influence.

Again. You're deflecting and twisting the facts.

1Co 15:9  For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Paul said such things because he persecuted the church before his conversion. Don't drag him down to the level of those today. He's better than that. I'm not trying to "praise Paul" I give God the glory for his example that I can follow through the Scriptures.

The revelation of God that we have through the ministry of Paul is essential to the body of Christ. You have no other comparison to make that reachs the magnitude of his gift to the church. Not even close.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

One of you says, ?I follow Paul?; another, ?I follow Apollos?; another, ?I follow Cephas?; still another, ?I follow Christ.?

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?