BEWARE: Are You Encouraging Apostasy?

[ChristB4us]

I don't see it. Reading Luke 2:33 out of context and ignoring what other passages say (like 1:27) is reading the Bible like a stack of random cue cards, rather than literature.

Such people need to be taught how to read the Bible properly. It's not the translation's fault if they don't.



To disobey is the primary definition of ἀπειθέω, as FSSL pointed out. Strong's, Thayer's, and BDAG all agree on that. It's the KJV that's off. The translators probably took a little liberty to make it read nicely ("believeth"/"believeth not"), but it's not strictly accurate.

Not strictly accurate? Not meaning anything different either. Whereas modern Bibles have changed the messages to mean something else altogether which supports false doctrines & apostasy.

Like in some modern Bible versions, 1 Corinthians 1:18 as if we are in the process of being saved in contrast of 1 Corinthians 1:21 when we are saved as it pleased ( past tense ) God to save those that believe in all Bible versions.

Like in some modern Bible versions, Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit can speak from Himself and utter sighs or groanings from Himself in contrast of the truth in John 16:13 in all bible versions.

Sowing doubts in God's words is what modern Bibles do regardless of the truth found elsewhere in that modern Bible and so this is why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words.

 

[ChristB4us]

One's treasured ideologies will affect his translation, and interpretation.

You can always point out what those treasured ideologies are to make your case against relying only on the KJV.

Whereas modern Bibles have changed the messages to mean something else altogether which supports false doctrines & apostasy.

Like in some modern Bible versions, 1 Corinthians 1:18 as if we are in the process of being saved in contrast of 1 Corinthians 1:21 when we are saved as it pleased ( past tense ) God to save those that believe in all Bible versions.

Like in some modern Bible versions, Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit can speak from Himself and utter sighs or groanings from Himself in contrast of the truth in John 16:13 in all bible versions.

Sowing doubts in God's words is what modern Bibles do regardless of the truth found elsewhere in that modern Bible and so this is why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words.

 

[AverageJoe]

When you know not all of them do, is why you should provide at least one example that do. Otherwise why say it unless you have one example right off the top of your head?

Crown College

 

[ChristB4us]

Crown College

Thank you.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Crown College

Just curious, was this stated by Sexton? Faculty? College curricula? Official college/church publication? What context did you hear at Crown that you could only be saved by hearing Scripture quoted from the KJV?

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

My daughter’s youth pastor went to Crown. He seems like a pretty chill guy. I find Joe’s claim dubious. I’m actually going to ask her youth pastor about this claim.

 

[ALAYMAN]

My daughter’s youth pastor went to Crown. He seems like a pretty chill guy. I find Joe’s claim dubious. I’m actually going to ask her youth pastor about this claim.

I know several folk from there and had not picked up any vibes like that either, nor was I aware that it was an officially promoted stream within any aspect of collegiate doctrine. KJVo, sure. And with that type of doctrinal teaching, especially with a large enough student body, you are bound to have some adherents to that wacky belief. If it came through endorsement by staff/administration/leadership I would be a little surprised given the little I know about Sexton. That's my limited anecdotal stance, but I am willing to hear Joe out, since he has been MUCH closer to the fundy insider position in these institutions than I have.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

My church is KJVo, but I just heard my pastor very recently say that he once led someone to Christ using the NIV Bible, because that’s just what happened to be on hand at that time and location. He did, however, run into a problem when it came to one verse he was searching for, and in the NIV version, it wasn’t there! He said he was able to go to another verse and use it from the NIV to get his point across.

Anyway, although my church is unapologetically KJVO, my pastor was clear that other versions can be used to lead people to Christ, and he was adamant that they should never be thrown away. Instead, he recommended donating those Bibles to schools/churches that are doctrinally okay with them.

 

[ALAYMAN]

My church is KJVo, but I just heard my pastor very recently say that he once led someone to Christ using the NIV Bible, because that’s just what happened to be on hand at that time and location. He did, however, run into a problem when it came to one verse he was searching for, and in the NIV version, it wasn’t there! He said he was able to go to another verse and use it from the NIV to get his point across.

Anyway, although my church is unapologetically KJVO, my pastor was clear that other versions can be used to lead people to Christ, and he was adamant that they should never be thrown away. Instead, he recommended donating those Bibles to schools/churches that are doctrinally okay with them.

Yeah, that's the milder type of KJVo, but I'm sure you've heard the more militant version where other versions are made fun of (called "per-versions", burned, etc). They are out there for sure, and there are documentable claims from leaders within the movement that you can't be saved without the KJV. Here's a guy who de-converted, but had plenty of insider fundy experience (WARNING! Do not read this website content if you aren't grounded in your faith, as he proselytizes heavily to de-convert others, particularly from the fundy-world)...


link

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Yeah, that's the milder type of KJVo, but I'm sure you've heard the more militant version where other versions are made fun of (called "per-versions", burned, etc). They are out there for sure, and there are documentable claims from leaders within the movement that you can't be saved without the KJV.

In all honesty, I’ve never heard that claim before reading about it on here the past couple days. Then again, I’ve never met a Hyles Anderson graduate. Most of the guys I’ve heard came from the BJU circle, and a couple from PCC and Liberty. Most of my current pastoral staff went to Florida College and did graduate work from PCC.

 

[ALAYMAN]

In all honesty, I’ve never heard that claim before reading about it on here the past couple days. Then again, I’ve never met a Hyles Anderson graduate. Most of the guys I’ve heard came from the BJU circle, and a couple from PCC and Liberty. Most of my current pastoral staff went to Florida College and did graduate work from PCC.

Fair enough, but you've entered the FFF lair of those who know the sordid history of some KJVo adherents. For a conversation that shows how big this issue was 20+ years ago (in this little pond of Christianity), see this as an example of proof how zany things got.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Fair enough, but you've entered the FFF lair of those who know the sordid history of some KJVo adherents. For a conversation that shows how big this issue was 20+ years ago (in this little pond of Christianity), see this as an example of proof how zany things got.

I think this quote says it all:

“Wally Beebe acknowledged that the claim that no one can be saved without the KJV being used "would automatically preclude all foreign language editions of the Bible and cancel all conversions obtained under the preaching of Christ where the KJV was misquoted"
(CHURCH BUS NEWS, Jan.-Mar., 1996, p. 26).”

When I read positions like that Hyles took, and some of the stuff from yesteryear at Bob Jones, I really begin to wonder if the root of the problem is ethnocentrism and racism wrapped in a “biblical” wrapping paper. These are guys from an older generation and a section of the US that thrived on white supremacy. Just my two cents….

 

[Baptist Renegade]

No Bible is required to lead someone to Christ. It does help, of course, because we want people not trusting our human words, but the Word of God, but if a Bible isn’t present in that moment, then use your memory.

The scriptures are MOST CERTAINLY required to lead someone to Christ!

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

No, it does not have to be read straight out of the Bible, You can use the word of God that has been "Hidden in your heart" through memorization but for one-on-one, it is always best to have them read it out of the bible for themselves.

 

[ChristB4us]

Getting back to the title of this thread, I agree that modern Bible versions are not only supporting false teachings but apostasy as well.

Yet in those scriptural references taken out of context where they had changed the meat in His words that supports false teachings regardless of the truth kept elsewhere in that modern Bible version, thus sowing doubts in His words as if inferring "did God really say that?", I find that the KJV does not.

Like in some modern Bible versions, 1 Corinthians 1:18 as if we are in the process of being saved in contrast of 1 Corinthians 1:21 when we are saved as it pleased ( past tense ) God to save those that believe in all Bible versions.

Like in some modern Bible versions, Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit can speak from Himself and utter sighs or groanings from Himself in contrast of the truth in John 16:13 in all bible versions.

Sowing doubts in God's words is what modern Bibles do regardless of the truth found elsewhere in that modern Bible and so this is why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

I think this quote says it all:

“Wally Beebe acknowledged that the claim that no one can be saved without the KJV being used "would automatically preclude all foreign language editions of the Bible and cancel all conversions obtained under the preaching of Christ where the KJV was misquoted"
(CHURCH BUS NEWS, Jan.-Mar., 1996, p. 26).”

When I read positions like that Hyles took, and some of the stuff from yesteryear at Bob Jones, I really begin to wonder if the root of the problem is ethnocentrism and racism wrapped in a “biblical” wrapping paper. These are guys from an older generation and a section of the US that thrived on white supremacy. Just my two cents….

Wally Beebe and Jack Hyles were absolute nut jobs who were poorly educated and willfully ignorant!

Be careful about using such words as ethnocentrism and racism! The radical extremists are trying their best to label everything about the United States as ethnocentric and racist in their efforts to tear everything down and bring about their socialist "New World Order!"

 

[Bob Jones V]

Anyone who says apostasy and bible versions in the same paragraph loses my interest.

 

[voicecrying]

Getting back to the title of this thread, I agree that modern Bible versions are not only supporting false teachings but apostasy as well.

What doctrines are wrong or missing in modern translations when taken as a whole (not just in a single verse here or there)?

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Getting back to the title of this thread, I agree that modern Bible versions are not only supporting false teachings but apostasy as well.

Yet in those scriptural references taken out of context where they had changed the meat in His words that supports false teachings regardless of the truth kept elsewhere in that modern Bible version, thus sowing doubts in His words as if inferring "did God really say that?", I find that the KJV does not.

Like in some modern Bible versions, 1 Corinthians 1:18 as if we are in the process of being saved in contrast of 1 Corinthians 1:21 when we are saved as it pleased ( past tense ) God to save those that believe in all Bible versions.

Like in some modern Bible versions, Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit can speak from Himself and utter sighs or groanings from Himself in contrast of the truth in John 16:13 in all bible versions.

Sowing doubts in God's words is what modern Bibles do regardless of the truth found elsewhere in that modern Bible and so this is why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words.

I believe it is a valid concern regarding who is sitting on our translation committees. We are seeing more and more the emphasis upon racial, gender, and cultural diversity over those who have the appropriate skills in linguistics along with a core conviction that what they are handling is the very Word of God! I believe this is a legitimate concern that should not be ignored.

I also believe that we have MORE THAN ENOUGH English translations of the Bible as it is! Wikipedia says over 450 translations! Why? Because there is BIG MONEY in making, marketing, and selling a new English translation whereas there is absolutely NO MONEY TO BE MADE in translating the scriptures into an obscure language of some indigenous tribe who has never had the Word of God in their own language!

When I was hard-core KJVO, a mindset was instilled in me that I really didn't need to learn Greek or Hebrew because I had a perfectly good English Bible! I truly regret this today and am working to rectify this deficiency of mine. As I have said, I still PREFER the KJV but I also try to understand and respect the position of those who hold to the "Older is Better" mindset regarding the underlying manuscripts of our English translations. I also have an ESV Study Bible which is the "Alexandrian" version of my choice.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I think this quote says it all:

“Wally Beebe acknowledged that the claim that no one can be saved without the KJV being used "would automatically preclude all foreign language editions of the Bible and cancel all conversions obtained under the preaching of Christ where the KJV was misquoted"
(CHURCH BUS NEWS, Jan.-Mar., 1996, p. 26).”

When I read positions like that Hyles took, and some of the stuff from yesteryear at Bob Jones, I really begin to wonder if the root of the problem is ethnocentrism and racism wrapped in a “biblical” wrapping paper. These are guys from an older generation and a section of the US that thrived on white supremacy. Just my two cents….

That's a slightly intriguing theory, and you could certainly find racist trappings in the history of the fundamentalist movement (defining "fundamentalist" here to be historically rooted in the turn of the 20th century movement....for instance it is fairly well known or believed that the grand daddy of IFB fundamentalism-J.Frank Norris-had ties to the Klan), not Hyles style IFB stuff), but I don't think that there's more than a tenuous racism link to the KJVo inception. I think the movement is anchored in the fact that most pew sitters don't have the tools nor desire to look into the deep requirements of linguistics and the academic process of translation. Couple that with the simple truth that the fundamentalist mindset is intimately tethered to the rigorous notion of propositional absolutes and the idea of confidence\certainty that is part and parcel of the dogma of KJVo ("a word for word Bible in my hands" mentality that you saw expressed in that thread I linked to earlier). But I will give you more acknowledgment that the ethnocentrist influence inherent to the KJVo philosophy may have more traction (again, at least among the pew-sitter, not necessarily as much with the academic proponents). I think Hyles used that issue to rally the troops and circle the wagons when things were going bad for him regarding the Dave thing.

 

[Ransom]

@AverageJoe

The link was provided.

When all you can do is keep pointing me to the same fundy Web page, you're just tacitly admitting that you're a gull who just believes what he reads on the Internet without giving it an ounce of critical thought.

Is there something of significance on that page that you want me to address? Summarize it here along with some quotations from primary sources. Otherwise, stop wasting my time.