BEWARE: Are You Encouraging Apostasy?

[ChristB4us]

Anyone who says apostasy and bible versions in the same paragraph loses my interest.

Keeping the faith which is the good fight should be your interest.

Like in some modern Bible versions, 1 Corinthians 1:18 as if we are in the process of being saved in contrast of 1 Corinthians 1:21 when we are saved as it pleased ( past tense ) God to save those that believe in all Bible versions.

Like in some modern Bible versions, Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit can speak from Himself and utter sighs or groanings from Himself in contrast of the truth in John 16:13 in all bible versions.

Sowing doubts in God's words is what modern Bibles do regardless of the truth found elsewhere in that modern Bible and so this is why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words because the scriptures within that Bible all align with the truth.

 

[ChristB4us]

What doctrines are wrong or missing in modern translations when taken as a whole (not just in a single verse here or there)?

The point is when correcting others, I resort to the KJV that has the actual meat in His words whereas the modern Bibles would support that false doctrine they are in, regardless of the truth being found elsewhere in that modern Bible version.

Like in some modern Bible versions, 1 Corinthians 1:18 as if we are in the process of being saved in contrast of 1 Corinthians 1:21 when we are saved as it pleased ( past tense ) God to save those that believe in all Bible versions.

Like in some modern Bible versions, Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit can speak from Himself and utter sighs or groanings from Himself in contrast of the truth in John 16:13 in all bible versions.

Sowing doubts in God's words is what modern Bibles do regardless of the truth found elsewhere in that modern Bible and so this is why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words as all the scriptures align in truth to expose and reprove false teachings and what is apostasy like that gospel of tongues that Azusa Street Revival is famous for and yet also had the phenomenon of slain in the spirit, bring drunk in the spirit, and variation of holy laughter while healings and visions and what nots occurring there also.

That is what they get for placing the emphasis on receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues thus ignoring just preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ alone.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

That is why saved believers are losing self control and falling as they do in these movements of the "spirit" which is really the spirits of the antichrist.

 

[Ransom]

Not strictly accurate? Not meaning anything different either. Whereas modern Bibles have changed the messages to mean something else altogether which supports false doctrines & apostasy.

You assume that which you have yet to prove. Circular reasoning.

Like in some modern Bible versions, 1 Corinthians 1:18 as if we are in the process of being saved in contrast of 1 Corinthians 1:21 when we are saved as it pleased ( past tense ) God to save those that believe in all Bible versions.

We have been saved from the penalty of sin. This is justification: God declares us righteous because the righteousness of Christ is credited to us through our faith (e.g. Eph. 2:8).

We are being saved from the power of sin. This is sanctification: the Holy Spirit works within us to transform our character to be like Christ's: "We all ... are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:18).

We will be saved from the presence of sin. This is glorification: we come into our inheritance of eternal life and the redemption of the body, as adopted sons.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son [i.e. sanctified], in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Rom. 8:29-30)​

If you're between justification and glorification, you're being sanctified. And that is what 1 Cor. 1:18 is talking about.

Sowing doubts in God's words is what modern Bibles do regardless of the truth found elsewhere in that modern Bible and so this is why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words.

You're the one trying to sow doubt about the Bible by telling us we can't rely on it. What a hypocrite.

 

[voicecrying]

The point is when correcting others, I resort to the KJV that has the actual meat in His words whereas the modern Bibles would support that false doctrine they are in, regardless of the truth being found elsewhere in that modern Bible version.

It's OK to say you don't know of any.

 

[Ransom]

The point is when correcting others, I resort to the KJV that has the actual meat in His words whereas the modern Bibles would support that false doctrine they are in, regardless of the truth being found elsewhere in that modern Bible version.

What false doctrines? You completely avoided voice's question.

 

[ChristB4us]

When all you can do is keep pointing me to the same fundy Web page, you're just tacitly admitting that you're a gull who just believes what he reads on the Internet without giving it an ounce of critical thought.

Is there something of significance on that page that you want me to address? Summarize it here along with some quotations from primary sources. Otherwise, stop wasting my time.

Westcott & Hort: their heresies and occult activities <---- Like the title says

Their disregard to scripture as the authority.

"Westcott and Hort not only did not believe in orthodox views in regards to the authority of the Bible, they also despised the traditional Bible that had been used since the early days of the church. Hort said regarding the traditional Bible (Received Text): I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus.[3] The villainous textus Receptus? This is the person whom modern Christians trust to have reconstructed the Greek text of their Bibles? Hort continued: Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late manuscripts.; it is a blessing there are such early ones.[4] Calling the traditional and historic Bibles "vile" shows the low view these two men had for Scripture. "

Their views on salvation;

"Hort was not someone who believed in the biblical doctrines of salvation. He even called the substitutionary atonement of Christ "immoral." Hort writes: I entirely agree...with what you there say on the atonement, having for many years believed that 'the absolute union of the Christian (or rather, of man) with Christ Himself' is the spiritual truth of which the popular doctrine of substitution is an immoral and material counterfeit.[6]"

AND

"Westcott also did not believe in biblical salvation, but he did teach the false doctrine of universal salvation. He wrote in his commentary of Hebrews 2:8-9, "The fruit of His work is universal."[7] Is it true that all people will be saved? No, only those that trust in Christ will be saved. Westcott also taught other heretical views regarding salvation. He wrote in his commentary of John 15:8, "a Christian never 'is' but always 'is becoming' a Christian."[8] The teaching that a Christian can never be sure of his salvation is heresy and false doctrine (1 John 5:12-13). "

Their involvement in the occult while preparing their Greek New Testament

"In addition to their many doctrinal heresies, strong evidence exists from the writings of both Westcott and Hort that they were involved in occult activities during the time they prepared their Greek New Testament. These serious accusations are made with very strong evidence from the letters of both men. The evidence that is about to be presented shows the satanic influence on the two men that changed the text of almost all modern translations.

Hort wrote in a letter: Westcott...and I have started a society for the investigation of ghosts and all supernatural appearances and effects, being all disposed to believe that such things really exist...Westcott is drawing up a schedule of questions...our own temporary name is the Ghostly Guild.[10] Dr. Sorenson notes that this occult activity club was organized by Westcott and Hort at Cambridge University the same year in which they began their work on their Greek text. They continued to participate in this club for a period of ten years.[11] "

Hence their changing the message of Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit makes intercessions directly Himself by uttering wordless groanings and changed the "he" in the conclusion of verse 27 to "the Spirit" when that "he" is actually Jesus Christ that searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit that makes intercessions for the saints according to the will of God of Him being the only Mediator between God and men.

 

[ChristB4us]

It's OK to say you don't know of any.

@Ransom

Are these not examples for why?

Like in some modern Bible versions, 1 Corinthians 1:18 as if we are in the process of being saved in contrast of 1 Corinthians 1:21 when we are saved as it pleased ( past tense ) God to save those that believe in all Bible versions.

Like in some modern Bible versions, Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit can speak from Himself and utter sighs or groanings from Himself in contrast of the truth in John 16:13 in all bible versions.

But if you cannot see that, then I cannot help you. Only God can.

 

[ChristB4us]

What false doctrines? You completely avoided voice's question.

Oh! Go save Lois Lane. She ought to be in trouble again by now.

 

[ChristB4us]

You assume that which you have yet to prove. Circular reasoning.



We have been saved from the penalty of sin. This is justification: God declares us righteous because the righteousness of Christ is credited to us through our faith (e.g. Eph. 2:8).

We are being saved from the power of sin. This is sanctification: the Holy Spirit works within us to transform our character to be like Christ's: "We all ... are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:18).

We will be saved from the presence of sin. This is glorification: we come into our inheritance of eternal life and the redemption of the body, as adopted sons.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son [i.e. sanctified], in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Rom. 8:29-30)​

If you're between justification and glorification, you're being sanctified. And that is what 1 Cor. 1:18 is talking about.



You're the one trying to sow doubt about the Bible by telling us we can't rely on it. What a hypocrite.

On the contrary, you are avoiding the rightly dividing of the word of truth in verse 18 of 1 Corinthians 1:17-21 KJV by going to sanctification when verse 18 is about justification by believing the preaching f the cross as opposed to those that perish for not believing..

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

That's a slightly intriguing theory, and you could certainly find racist trappings in the history of the fundamentalist movement (defining "fundamentalist" here to be historically rooted in the turn of the 20th century movement....for instance it is fairly well known or believed that the grand daddy of IFB fundamentalism-J.Frank Norris-had ties to the Klan), not Hyles style IFB stuff), but I don't think that there's more than a tenuous racism link to the KJVo inception. I think the movement is anchored in the fact that most pew sitters don't have the tools nor desire to look into the deep requirements of linguistics and the academic process of translation. Couple that with the simple truth that the fundamentalist mindset is intimately tethered to the rigorous notion of propositional absolutes and the idea of confidence\certainty that is part and parcel of the dogma of KJVo ("a word for word Bible in my hands" mentality that you saw expressed in that thread I linked to earlier). But I will give you more acknowledgment that the ethnocentrist influence inherent to the KJVo philosophy may have more traction (again, at least among the pew-sitter, not necessarily as much with the academic proponents). I think Hyles used that issue to rally the troops and circle the wagons when things were going bad for him regarding the Dave thing.

It’s just a hunch on my part. Back in college, I did a paper on the relationship between race/religion/politics. I’ve always been a bit intrigued by how those interweave. Of course now, it’s been so many years I can’t recall what conclusions I reached!

 

[voicecrying]

Like in some modern Bible versions, Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit can speak from Himself and utter sighs or groanings from Himself in contrast of the truth in John 16:13 in all bible versions.

What translations say he speaks "from himself" and what do you think "from himself" means?

 

[ALAYMAN]

It’s just a hunch on my part. Back in college, I did a paper on the relationship between race/religion/politics. I’ve always been a bit intrigued by how those interweave. Of course now, it’s been so many years I can’t recall what conclusions I reached!

I figured you'd have a Charleston accent, not British...

 

[Ransom]

Their disregard to scripture as the authority.

Well, their opinions on the Textus Receptus are neither heresy nor occultism, so I'll ignore that bit of irrelevance.

Their views on salvation;

"Hort was not someone who believed in the biblical doctrines of salvation. He even called the substitutionary atonement of Christ "immoral."

Where dd he say this? No citation = no argument.

Hort writes: I entirely agree...with what you there say on the atonement, having for many years believed that 'the absolute union of the Christian (or rather, of man) with Christ Himself' is the spiritual truth of which the popular doctrine of substitution is an immoral and material counterfeit.[6]"

Where did he say this? No citation = no argument.

"Westcott also did not believe in biblical salvation, but he did teach the false doctrine of universal salvation. He wrote in his commentary of Hebrews 2:8-9, "The fruit of His work is universal."[7]

At last we have something resembling a proper citation. Lazy and lacking a proper page number, but at least I can thumb through to chapter 2 and find the spot.

Of course, the assertion being made is false. Westcott isn't writing about "universal salvation," but the universal rule of Christ over creation. The author of Hebrews cites Psalm 8: "What is man, that you are mindful of him ... you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet."

To which the author adds, "Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honour" (Heb. 2:8-9).

And on this passage, Westcott comments:

The promise to man has not however yet been realised. It assured to him a dominion absolute and universal; and as yet he has no such dominion (v. 8b). But the words of the Psalm have received a new fufilment. The Son of God has assumed the nature in which man was created. In that nature--bearing its last sorrowsl--He has been crowned with glory. The fruit of His work is universal. In "the Son of man" (Jesus) then there is the assurance that man's sovereignty shall be gained (v. 9).

Brooke Foss Westcott, The Epistle to the Hebrews, 3rd ed. (London: Macmillan, 1906), 44.​

So it's not about "universal salvation" at all. It's about Christ fulfilling the promise of Psalm 8. Man is given dominion over all things, but has not attained it. Christ, in the Incarnation, becomes the representative of mankind, and fulfils the promise by subjecting all things to his rule.

So that's one falsehood you've presented.

 

[Bob Jones V]

Keeping the faith which is the good fight should be your interest.

Like in some modern Bible versions, 1 Corinthians 1:18 as if we are in the process of being saved in contrast of 1 Corinthians 1:21 when we are saved as it pleased ( past tense ) God to save those that believe in all Bible versions.

Like in some modern Bible versions, Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit can speak from Himself and utter sighs or groanings from Himself in contrast of the truth in John 16:13 in all bible versions.

Sowing doubts in God's words is what modern Bibles do regardless of the truth found elsewhere in that modern Bible and so this is why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words because the scriptures within that Bible all align with the truth.

You don't know a lick of Greek, do you?

 

[Ransom]

Their involvement in the occult while preparing their Greek New Testament....

Hort wrote in a letter: Westcott...and I have started a society for the investigation of ghosts and all supernatural appearances and effects, being all disposed to believe that such things really exist...Westcott is drawing up a schedule of questions...our own temporary name is the Ghostly Guild.[10] Dr. Sorenson notes that this occult activity club was organized by Westcott and Hort at Cambridge University the same year in which they began their work on their Greek text. They continued to participate in this club for a period of ten years.[[/B]11] "

The "Ghostly Guild" circulated a pamphlet stating their aims and soliciting contributions:

The interest and importance of a serious and earnest inquiry into the nature of the phenomena which are vaguely called "supernatural" will scarcely be questioned. Many persons believe that all such apparently mysterious occurrences are due either to purely natural causes, or to delusions of the mind or senses, or to wilful deception. But there are many others who believe it possible that the beings of the unseen world may manifest themselves to us in extraordinary ways, and also are unable otherwise to explain many facts the evidence for which cannot be impeached. . . . in any case, even if it should appear that morbid or irregular workings of the mind or senses will satisfactorily account for every such marvel, still some progress would be made towards ascertaining the laws which regulate our being, and thus adding to our scanty knowledge of an obscure but important province of science.

--Arthur Westcott, Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, vol. 1 (London: Macmillan, 1901), 118).​

In other words, they solicited claims of ghost sightings or other supposed supernatural events, to the end of investigating them scientificallly, to see whether they were genuine or not, thinking that if they all turned out to be delusions, some knowledge would still have been gained.

Obviously, investigating paranormal claims is not the same as engaging in occult activity, as this "Dr. Sorenson" falsely concludes.

As for what happened to the Ghostly Guild, a paranormal magazine called Borderlands solicited the opinions of public figures on researching such phenomenon. Westcott, then the Bishop of Durham, was one of the respondents. He wrote:

Many years ago I had occasion to investigate "spiritualistic" phenomena with some care, and I came to a clear conclusion, which I feel bound to express in answer to your circular. It appears to me that in this, as in all spiritual questions, Holy Scripture is our supreme guide. I observe, then, that while spiritual ministries are constantly recorded in the Bible, there is not the faintest encouragement to seek them. The case, indeed, is far otherwise. I cannot, therefore, but regard every voluntary approach to beings such as those who are supposed to hold communication with men through mediums as unlawful and perilous. I find in the fact of the Incarnation all that man (so far as I can see) requires for life and hope.

"The Response to the Appeal," Borderland 1, No. 1 [July 1893]: 11. http://iapsop.com/archive/materials/borderland​

Involved in the occult? Quite the opposite. Westcott opposed occultism, regarding it both as spiritually dangerous and inferior to Scripture as a source of revelation.

So that's two falsehoods you've presented.

 

[Ransom]

Hence their changing the message of Romans 8:26-27

Westcott and Hort didn't "change the message" of Romans 8:26-27. There is no difference in sense between the KJV, NIV, ESV, or NASB.

as if the Holy Spirit makes intercessions directly Himself by uttering wordless groanings

"the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Rom. 8:27 KJV).

You were saying?

and changed the "he" in the conclusion of verse 27 to "the Spirit"

I have no idea what you are gibbering about, since none of the versions I checked (above) say anything like what you are claiming.

So that's three falsehoods you've presented, and nothing to substantiate your claims that Westcott and Hort were heretics or occultists. Can I disregard you now?

 

[Ransom]

@Ransom

You called me AverageJoe earlier, and now you called voicecrying Ransom.

You can't even keep who you're talking to straight, and you expect us to take your arguments seriously?

 

[Ransom]

On the contrary, you are avoiding the rightly dividing of the word of truth in verse 18

As I've said to a certain "Bible believer" on this forum many a time, "Is too!" is not an argument.

σῳζομένοις ("being saved") is in the present tense, same as ἀπολλυμένοις ("perishing"). Both of them are describing an action that is presently in progress.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I figured you'd have a Charleston accent, not British...

LOL. TBH, his accent was so British I actually had a difficult time understanding some of the words he was speaking. It is interesting though that someone else has picked up on that thought. Had I stuck with the philosophy track in graduate school, I had thoughts of pursuing a path toward the sociological effect of religion and politics, with an emphasis on race and ethnicity in the South. I actually recall seeing a dearth of publications in that area (at least a couple decades ago) though certainly not a complete absence. But alas, I decided I probably needed to make a living.

 

[AverageJoe]

Just curious, was this stated by Sexton? Faculty? College curricula? Official college/church publication? What context did you hear at Crown that you could only be saved by hearing Scripture quoted from the KJV?

I believe the quote was made in a chapel service where they were denigrating everyone who used the NIV, NASB, NKJV, Holeman and others...the speaker stated that he'd have a hard time believing these people ever came to Christ in the first place if the church they were in wasn't using the "preserved Word of God...the King James BIBLE." I don't recall who the speaker was, and it's been many years ago. It was around the time my wife and I moved here to Tennessee. We got to listen to a cassette tape of a man in our old church had made while he was visiting Crown with his son who was about to go off to college the next year.