BJU still struggling with IFB-X issues.

[illinoisguy]

Another lengthy open letter concerning the Bojo brouhaha: [click on "keep reading]"

https://wutbju.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F699814651087781888

This summarizes the case that the hard-liners and dead-enders are making against Pettit:

• "Dr. Pettit’s position on traditional cultural fundamentalist ecclesiastical separation isn’t intense enough for a few Board members (see his chapel message 10/19 entitled “Why Do We Say The Creed?”
• "Concern with cultural changes, worship styles, and other Christian preference issues not palatable with cultural fundamentalism or the school’s history.
• "The addition and dismissal of faculty and their alignment with historical fundamentalism. Ironically, this is a new item from some board members. Other terminations were handled due to financial cuts. Those faculty let go or retained were done so in collaboration with each vice-president and the associated dean. There was no agenda to marginalize the more conservative people.
• "There is conflict on the board with the chair and vice chair whose children are or have been faculty; there is debate among the board and they are asking SAC for clarification.
• "The policy on local church attendance for students which allows students to attend churches with parental approval; ironically this is a board approved policy.
• "Dr. Pettit’s participation in a blue grass music band
• "The direction of the fine arts program, plays, performances, music selection and styles, etc.
• "The school’s implementation and expansion of collegiate sports previously started under the Stephen Jones administration and expanded with board approval under the Pettit administration
• "Tolerance of what some believe to be immodest clothing worn by women athletes"

Partial list of concerns expressed by this open letter:

• "Has the board fully considered the impact of the President’s termination on the BJU community? How would this impact 2nd semester enrollment? Prospective student enrollment? What about BJU’s reputation and that of its alumni?
• "What is the impact to our SAC accreditation? Has the board spoke with them? Is there risk of an open letter to SAC?
• "What is the financial impact should student enrollment fall by 5%, 10% or 20%? Prior to Dr. Pettit’s administration, enrollment had fallen year over year for more than 20 years…the school was in rough shape – that is no secret. Who takes the blame for that?
• "What if a large part of the student body moves to an online model for some period of time to assess a new administration?
• "Many of our student body do not come from traditional Baptistic families who would be familiar with historic and cultural fundamentalism. They attend BJU in part because they desire an education with a Christian worldview. How will these students and their families be impacted?
• "Many of our students choose to come to BJU; they are spending their hard earned money because they like BJU? – In some respects this is a different scenario from the old days when parents and churches generally forced students to attend BJU. This difference is immediately felt on campus when engaging with students and faculty.
• "What is the personal liability to board members as fiduciaries in the event of legal action by the board on itself or incoming suits from the BJU community?"

Music is definitely a concern for the Pettit opponents, but only one of many elements of dispute. As I read through the 17 comments on Lou Martuneac's site, there appears to be sentiment in favor of turning back the clock, to go back to the "good old days" when women's slacks were banned and the lives of the students were much more tightly controlled. But will students, in this day and age, be willing to enroll at their grandfather's BJU? As a new convert back in 1972, I was instructed and heavily pressured to drop out of the college I was already attending, to go to BJU and start all over there. I flatly refused to do so, because I did not think I could deal with the strict rules and arrogance at BJU. Will young people today be willing to go back in time to the authoritarian BJU of the 1970s? We may have an opportunity to find out, under the leadership of the octogenarian Dr. Bob III if he takes over.

 

[Ransom]

"The direction of the fine arts program, plays, performances, music selection and styles, etc.

Let me guess: Too many plays with subject matter relating to sex, violence, and coarse jokes?

Best to play it safe, and stick to Shakespeare.

 

[AverageJoe]

Are any of us sending kids to BJU? Why should this matter to us? I don't support them financially.

 

[Ransom]

Are any of us sending kids to BJU? Why should this matter to us? I don't support them financially.

A school's graduates get into positions of leadership and influence: bosses, employees, pastors, community leaders, etc. Sending your kids to a school isn't the only way they can have an effect on you.

 

[AverageJoe]

A school's graduates get into positions of leadership and influence: bosses, employees, pastors, community leaders, etc. Sending your kids to a school isn't the only way they can have an effect on you.

I'm aware of this fact. I'm also aware that people need to use their "noggins" and think for themselves. If they're that easily influenced, then something is wrong with them, not just the University.

 

[illinoisguy]

Bob Jones University has tremendous influence, even on those of us who didn't attend, didn't send our kids there, and don't support them financially. The press, the politicians and the world see BJU as the major representative of fundamentalism in this country. I was forced out as a longtime member of my neighborhood church, and out of the IFB movement by an arrogant, dishonest Bojo preacher boy who put me on his enemies list. But those who say that BJU does not matter do not have to read these posts.

 

[AverageJoe]

Bob Jones University has tremendous influence, even on those of us who didn't attend, didn't send our kids there, and don't support them financially. The press, the politicians and the world see BJU as the major representative of fundamentalism in this country. I was forced out as a longtime member of my neighborhood church, and out of the IFB movement by an arrogant, dishonest Bojo preacher boy who put me on his enemies list. But those who say that BJU does not matter do not have to read these posts.

I, too, have dealt with many BJU grads who became pastors. Some were arrogant and overbearing. They tried many things with my wife and me to try and drive us out of their churches. It didn't work. We can stand and hold our own with most preachers. It's been helpful to have a Bible background from 8th grade to post-college. Though that's been many years in the past, education did help. I've also got many friends and a couple of relatives who graduated from BJU...I don't seem to have a problem with them. I worked for a supervisor who was a BJU graduate, and he didn't really like the fact that I would work on Sundays, especially being a lay minister. He tried his best to get me fired or to get me to quit, telling me that I needed to be more faithful to God and let HIM provide. I asked him for proof that God hadn't provided the job I had. He lost his job long before I left that company. He had a nervous breakdown. Guess it's just a matter of perspective and will.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I was forced out as a longtime member of my neighborhood church, and out of the IFB movement by an arrogant, dishonest Bojo preacher boy who put me on his enemies list.

How does one get forced out of a church? They literally trespassed you or just didn’t want to rub elbows anymore and shunned you a bit?

 

[AverageJoe]

How does one get forced out of a church? They literally trespassed you or just didn’t want to rub elbows anymore and shunned you a bit?

I was wondering that myself. The only people I've ever known to be "forced" out of a church was a pastor who the people didn't like. Hmm...things that make you go "say what????"

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I was wondering that myself. The only people I've ever known to be "forced" out of a church was a pastor who the people didn't like. Hmm...things that make you go "say what????"

I feel like I recall there might have been a guy voted out of my church membership once, but I think he did something pretty bad, as in criminal stuff. I was pretty young when it happened, so I don’t remember everything clearly, I just recall hearing chatter about voting someone out. I don’t know if they actually did, or if it was majority voted, if that then entailed him being subsequently trespassed from the property. Hmmm…might have to ask the parents about that to see if I recall correctly or just completely misunderstood that situation as a kid.

 

[AverageJoe]

I feel like I recall there might have been a guy voted out of my church membership once, but I think he did something pretty bad, as in criminal stuff. I was pretty young when it happened, so I don’t remember everything clearly, I just recall hearing chatter about voting someone out. I don’t know if they actually did, or if it was majority voted, if that then entailed him being subsequently trespassed from the property. Hmmm…might have to ask the parents about that to see if I recall correctly or just completely misunderstood that situation as a kid.

I know two churches I've attended used church discipline on two different members in each church...one deacon had an affair with another deacon's wife, and they gave both the deacon and the other deacon's wife a chance to repent, which they refused to do. They actually flaunted what they were doing by moving in together. They were removed and asked not to come back until they showed signs of repenting. Neither ever came back. The second church had a man who wounded a teenage son of a family that was in the church and blamed the son for attacking him. The son did no such thing. I was present when the incident occurred. The man attacked the youth unprovoked. He was given a chance to make things right, but refused, taking the family to court for damages, and they counter-sued. He badmouthed the church, the pastor, and the
deacons, and they finally met and called a church meeting to remove him from membership. It worked out well. The man finally came around six months later and repented.

 

[illinoisguy]

Pastors who want to get rid of a member know how to do that, without having to present any evidence of wrongdoing. In my case, the new Bojo pastor told me I was to blame for the failure of his ministry, that I was making him look bad by not doing enough for the church, that I was not "gospel-centered," that many people in the church were offended with me, etc. I offered to apologize privately or publicly to those who were offended but the pastor didn't want me to do that. He falsely accused me of complaining about a book he was using in Sunday School. He said I had not been passing out enough tracts. I was not accused of any offense regarding sex, violence, finances or substance abuse. I had been attending every service and contributing approximately 14% of the entire church budget. But it was very clear that the pastor wanted me out and that his congregation would back him up. I felt that it would be harmful and divisive for me to stay, so I quietly left. I have been attending another church for 10 years now, with no problems or discord whatsoever. If anyone wants to say I should have stayed in a church where I was clearly no longer welcome, and I didn't handle it right, well, bring it on. I felt that it would not have advanced the cause of God's work for me to stay and fight out in a church pastored by a typically arrogant Bojo jerk who learned his bullying ways at Bob Jones University. Maybe things have changed at BJU under Pettit's leadership, or maybe not, I don't know - this tirade is not meant to be an indictment of all past, present or future Bob Jones graduates. Current and would-be future administrators at BJU need to realize that when their preacher-boy graduates go forth and bully their congregations and run people off for no reason, this hurts the entire BJU brand, because word gets around about it, and people do not want to join a church pastored by a BJU grad.

A lot of people previously left my Bob Jones church after a scandal in which our assistant pastor, BJU grad, married with 4 children, had an affair with an underage girl who was a BJU student. But the decline in church membership was blamed on me, even though I had always lived a life of decent rectitude according to the fundy rules. It wasn't good enough - if the pastor felt that I was not completely submissive enough to him, then I was branded an infidel. Is that enough to explain how I was "forced" out of the church or would you like to hear more?

 

[AverageJoe]

Pastors who want to get rid of a member know how to do that, without having to present any evidence of wrongdoing. In my case, the new Bojo pastor told me I was to blame for the failure of his ministry, that I was making him look bad by not doing enough for the church, that I was not "gospel-centered," that many people in the church were offended with me, etc. I offered to apologize privately or publicly to those who were offended but the pastor didn't want me to do that. He falsely accused me of complaining about a book he was using in Sunday School. He said I had not been passing out enough tracts. I was not accused of any offense regarding sex, violence, finances or substance abuse. I had been attending every service and contributing approximately 14% of the entire church budget. But it was very clear that the pastor wanted me out and that his congregation would back him up. I felt that it would be harmful and divisive for me to stay, so I quietly left. I have been attending another church for 10 years now, with no problems or discord whatsoever. If anyone wants to say I should have stayed in a church where I was clearly no longer welcome, and I didn't handle it right, well, bring it on. I felt that it would not have advanced the cause of God's work for me to stay and fight out in a church pastored by a typically arrogant Bojo jerk who learned his bullying ways at Bob Jones University. Maybe things have changed at BJU under Pettit's leadership, or maybe not, I don't know - this tirade is not meant to be an indictment of all past, present or future Bob Jones graduates. Current and would-be future administrators at BJU need to realize that when their preacher-boy graduates go forth and bully their congregations and run people off for no reason, this hurts the entire BJU brand, because word gets around about it, and people do not want to join a church pastored by a BJU grad.

A lot of people previously left my Bob Jones church after a scandal in which our assistant pastor, BJU grad, married with 4 children, had an affair with an underage girl who was a BJU student. But the decline in church membership was blamed on me, even though I had always lived a life of decent rectitude according to the fundy rules. It wasn't good enough - if the pastor felt that I was not completely submissive enough to him, then I was branded an infidel. Is that enough to explain how I was "forced" out of the church or would you like to hear more?

I'm sorry, but, I'm only hearing one side of this story, and I don't make judgment calls on that basis. Some of it sounds plausible, but some of it doesn't. Let's be honest here, most of the time, when the story is coming from one perspective or another, the one telling the story is the one who is being attacked or hurt. The bible tells us to hear both sides before making a judgment.

 

[illinoisguy]

Let's hope that the pastor who ran me off really is a true believer, because he is now back on the staff at BJU!

Okay, strictly speaking, maybe I was not "forced" to leave that church, but I was made to feel extremely unwelcome there, and that my continued presence there would be considered detrimental to the ministry, and that if I stayed, I would blamed for a continued decline in the congregation which had already been going on for many years.

In this particular case, the pastor had me stay in detention for 90 minutes after the church service, and dumped all over me for everything I had said or done or left undone over a period of 3 1/2 years. (Such as, missing church one Sunday per year because I had a literature table at a preacher's meeting down South - I was always in church the other 51 Sundays a year). Afterwards, he cut off contact with me and refused to read a letter of explanation I sent him. When I stopped attending services and asked to transfer membership to another church, he told me he wanted to meet with me first. I said okay, I sent him a list of issues for discussion, and waited for him to schedule the meeting. After a while he sent me an email saying basically "Since you have repeatedly refused to meet with me, I want no more contact with you. For the good of the congregation, it is better that you worship elsewhere." At all times I have been willing to submit to a process of church discipline and to answer for my conduct at that church, but it's hard to do when no one there will talk to me.

These types of clever tactics are how pastors all over (not just BJU grads or IFBx preachers) get rid of people on their enemies lists that they no longer have any use for. If anyone complains, they can honestly say they never asked that person to leave. The sheeple will assume that the person who left must have done something really bad, and they will leave it at that. Of course, good IFB church members always believe, in case of any dispute between one of their fellow church members and the preacher, that the Mannagod was in the right. Fighting your preacher is like fighting City Hall - you can't do it. I have been in other situations like this with non-BJU preachers who were trying to intimidate me with false accusations. The only way for the church member to resolve such situations is to leave that church, and then let oneself be demonized for doing so.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

It always amazes me when I hear about these stories of control freak pastors. I’ve never encountered one, but then again, I am not heavily involved in my church beyond church attendance, so I don’t guess they’d have much to say to me. We occasionally volunteer for something at church, but it’s rare. Honestly, I don’t desire to be deeply involved because I feel it could open me up to drama, so I leave it at that. I’m not even sure if I’m technically a member of my church. I attended on a visitor basis for several years, then became a member, but then a year or two later left to try a new church in the community. I did text the pastor that we were going to try attending this other church, but I never revoked my membership. So, after attending this other church for about a year or maybe a year plus a few months, we went back to our original church. Since then, however, they must’ve removed us from membership because I noticed when there were Christmas cards for members and other items that pertained to only members, my name was nowhere to be found. I’m not really what to make of that…but I figured the church would’ve notified me if removing me from their membership list, but I guess not.

 

[Ransom]

In this particular case, the pastor had me stay in detention for 90 minutes after the church service,

What

 

[ALAYMAN]

It always amazes me when I hear about these stories of control freak pastors. I’ve never encountered one, but then again, I am not heavily involved in my church beyond church attendance, so I don’t guess they’d have much to say to me. We occasionally volunteer for something at church, but it’s rare. Honestly, I don’t desire to be deeply involved because I feel it could open me up to drama, so I leave it at that. I’m not even sure if I’m technically a member of my church. I attended on a visitor basis for several years, then became a member, but then a year or two later left to try a new church in the community. I did text the pastor that we were going to try attending this other church, but I never revoked my membership. So, after attending this other church for about a year or maybe a year plus a few months, we went back to our original church. Since then, however, they must’ve removed us from membership because I noticed when there were Christmas cards for members and other items that pertained to only members, my name was nowhere to be found. I’m not really what to make of that…but I figured the church would’ve notified me if removing me from their membership list, but I guess not.

I like your thought-provoking perspective as a layman .

While I agree that the church had every right to purge you from membership after such a lengthy time frame, I also agree that they should have notified you to their best ability and if they didn't that is a derilection of accountability and structure on their part. However, on the third hand , since you have perceived that you were removed from the membership rolls but you are currently considering yourself an active participant of the congregation I think you should have approached the leadership to let them know that you would like to be reconsidered for membership. Just my two cents.

 

[AverageJoe]

They marginalize you. That is easy, and it happened to several friends of mine. You disinvited to any kind of involvement. You get left off schedules of volunteers. And a host of other sneaky ways of keeping you out of the flow of the ministry. If you want to serve the Lord, you just have to leave.

I'd still have to say that the Lord would have to be the one to lead me to leave, not other people. That just doesn't work for me. I've been in several churches where these kinds of tactics were used to try and make us leave. We didn't. People got mad, people threw fits, people actually got physical with us...but, we stayed. God hadn't told us to leave. We led a couple to the Lord, and they became active in the church, and they helped turn the church back around. Just because one is left off of ministry assignments doesn't mean they can't serve the Lord where they're planted. Sorry, I just don't buy this excuse, and that's what it is.

 

[ALAYMAN]

It always amazes me when I hear about these stories of control freak pastors.

One other comment about your statement regarding the controlling nature of some churches/pastors....I completely agree.

Long ago, when my current pastor had just been at our church for a few years I realized that some of the Hyles Anderson college tendencies might eventually come to fruition if the church continued to grow, and consequently my role as a deacon and leader in the church would have to diminish because I couldn't carry the water for all of that hardcore strict legalistic standards related stuff. So I had that conversation with him and said respectfully that at such a time when I couldn't agree with any sort of overemphasis on externals that I would just remove myself from membership and if that became too frequent an emphasis within the theme and philosophy of church I would just quietly go elsewhere. The really good news is that he has since distanced himself from that kind of dung and we are even closer to agreement on theology than ever before.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I like your thought-provoking perspective as a layman .

While I agree that the church had every right to purge you from membership after such a lengthy time frame, I also agree that they should have notified you to their best ability and if they didn't that is a derilection of accountability and structure on their part. However, on the third hand , since you have perceived that you were removed from the membership rolls but you are currently considering yourself an active participant of the congregation I think you should have approached the leadership to let them know that you would like to be reconsidered for membership. Just my two cents.

I’ve been back at the church for two years or so. I thought about reapplying for membership, but it doesn’t seem like membership entitles me to anything other than a yearly Christmas card. I suppose I’m also not allowed to participate in congregational voting, but that’s extremely rare. Plus, at this point it’s kind of awkward not even knowing if I’m a member or non-member. I’m not really sure what to do. No one in leadership ever encouraged me to rejoin.