Calvinism and God's love for the cosmos.

[ALAYMAN]

In what sense, if any, do you believe that God loves the non-elect?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Maybe God's love for the non-elect (in the Calvinist framework) is directly proportional to the responses in this query? 

 

[Ransom]

In what sense, if any, do you believe that God loves the non-elect?

He lets them live. He gives them their entire lives as ample opportunity to hear and obey the Gospel. Christ was crucified and resurrected publicly as a testimony to all men. He wants them to repent rather than perish. He gives all men common grace (e.g. letting the rain fall on the just and unjust, allowing the wicked to prosper, etc.).

God is not motivated by a sense of duty or obligation toward anyone. He does this for all people because he loves them. Of course this is not love in the same sense as the particular, saving love he has for the elect.

 

[Twisted]

Of course this is not love in the same sense as the particular, saving love he has for the elect.

Wow.

 

[cpizzle]

Ransom,

Help me better understand your position.  Correct any misunderstandings because I don't want to make assumptions about your position.

In overly (and possibly unfairly) simplified terms, The "Calvanist/Reformed" Viewpoint is:
God is soverign.
God always gets what he wants.
If God wants you to be saved, you will respond to his grace.

However, you said "He wants them to repent rather than perish"
How does God "want" them to repent and be saved and yet they don't?

 

[HammondCheese]

In what sense, if any, do you believe that God loves the non-elect?

He loves the "non-elect", the Gentiles, by bringing the gospel to us which began with the Apostle Paul...  The elect, Israel/Jacob, will have their day in the Millennium once the veil has been lifted, and they receive Jesus as their Christ, the MESSIAH.  Romans 11, et al.

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[Ransom]

However, you said "He wants them to repent rather than perish"
How does God "want" them to repent and be saved and yet they don't?

Do you question the Bible?

"Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live" (Ezek 18:32-33).

"As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek. 33:11).

But, on the other hand, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44).

So these statements, both spoken directly by God, are both true:

1. God desires that people turn from their sins and not perish in them.
2. No one comes to God except by the power of God.

Please tell me which one I should question, since apparently you think biblical truth contradicts itself.

 

[Twisted]

However, you said "He wants them to repent rather than perish"
How does God "want" them to repent and be saved and yet they don't?

Do you question the Bible?

"Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live" (Ezek 18:32-33).

"As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek. 33:11).

But, on the other hand, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44).

So these statements, both spoken directly by God, are both true:

1. God desires that people turn from their sins and not perish in them.
2. No one comes to God except by the power of God.

Please tell me which one I should question, since apparently you think biblical truth contradicts itself.

 

[Twisted]

1. God desires...

Why would God "desire" as He is sovereign?

 

[Ransom]

Why would God "desire" as He is sovereign?

Because he is a personal being, with a will. Is God's personality inferior to a human's?

 

[Twisted]

Why would God "desire" as He is sovereign?

Because he is a personal being, with a will. Is God's personality inferior to a human's?

Personality
Desire
Will
Love
Hate

Is it possible these attributes are extensions of anthropomorphisms? 

If Augustine was correct, is it possible he didn't go far enough?

A sovereign creator who knows the end from the beginning and who will always get His way, is it possible these attributes are just a way to "toy" with us since the outcome is predetermined?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Why would God "desire" as He is sovereign?

Because he is a personal being, with a will. Is God's personality inferior to a human's?

Personality
Desire
Will
Love
Hate

Is it possible these attributes are extensions of anthropomorphisms? 

If Augustine was correct, is it possible he didn't go far enough?

A sovereign creator who knows the end from the beginning and who will always get His way, is it possible these attributes are just a way to "toy" with us since the outcome is predetermined?

What happened to?

[/quote]

 

[HammondCheese]

1. God desires...

Why would God "desire" as He is sovereign?

Ransom missed your point... Haha  Shocker.

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[Ransom]

Ransom missed your point... Haha  Shocker.

Do you have a point? (I'm asking that question existentially.)

 

[Ransom]

Is it possible...
If Augustine was correct, is it possible...
... is it possible...

Is it possible you are asking these questions  because your brain has been replaced with low-fat cottage cheese? Possibly, but I wouldn't stake a theology on it.

 

[Twisted]

Is it possible...
If Augustine was correct, is it possible...
... is it possible...

Is it possible you are asking these questions  because your brain has been replaced with low-fat cottage cheese? Possibly, but I wouldn't stake a theology on it.

Ransom's Rule #1 - When you can't comprehend a question, ad hominem attacks are acceptable.

 

[Ransom]

Ransom's Rule #1 - When you can't comprehend a question, ad hominem attacks are acceptable.

"Is it possible" questions are almost always deflections. At least when I employ a logical fallacy, it's obvious and I'm not pretending otherwise.

 

[Twisted]

Ransom's Rule #1 - When you can't comprehend a question, ad hominem attacks are acceptable.

"Is it possible" questions are almost always deflections. At least when I employ a logical fallacy, it's obvious and I'm not pretending otherwise.

At least you gave me credit for using "low-fat" cottage cheese.

 

[ALAYMAN]

In what sense, if any, do you believe that God loves the non-elect?

He lets them live. He gives them their entire lives as ample opportunity to hear and obey the Gospel. Christ was crucified and resurrected publicly as a testimony to all men. He wants them to repent rather than perish. He gives all men common grace (e.g. letting the rain fall on the just and unjust, allowing the wicked to prosper, etc.).

Thanks, I appreciate that answer.  Would you say that it is also an act of love by God to not violate the will of the creature in compelling them to come to Him?  If so, then what is it that is different about the elect that He does compel them?

 

[Ransom]

Would you say that it is also an act of love by God to not violate the will of the creature in compelling them to come to Him?[/quote]

Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by that question.

If so, then what is it that is different about the elect that He does compel them?

If so, or not, the difference between the saved and the unsaved is that God has a purpose, not necessarily discernible by us, for saving the saved. Other than that, there is no difference. But for the grace of God, there go we all.