Chosen "IN HIM" before the foundation of the world...

[Baptist Renegade]

I would really like to get some of you non-Cals or even "Anti-Cals" to chime in here and help me out...

I have heard a number of Anti-Calvinist apologists saying that Calvinists are interpreting Ephesians 1:4 all wrong; that we are saying we are chosen before the foundation of the world when the verse says chosen "IN HIM" before the foundation of the world as if including the prepositional phrase "In Him" is supposed to make the Calvinist-Arminian argument magically go away?

According to their rationale, we are not "Elect" until we are actually saved and are placed "In Christ?" I think it is something to the effect that God predestined his son to die for the sins of the world and therefore those who CHOOSE CHRIST become the elect? Help me out here, I really do not want to misquote or misrepresent their position. I want to understand it so I can either get converted back to "Free-Willy-Dom" or at least have accurate information in order to refute this. I am being serious here!

I believe Leighton Flowers is among those who takes such a position.

The big problem I see here is that such would require God having no clue whatsoever who will and who will not believe on his son! Christ died for everyone yet no one in particular! Any "Open Theists" here?

I am just wondering if anyone is familiar with this position or actually uses this approach in order to contend with "Evil Calvinists" as myself.

Please come and set me straight! Please clear up my misconceptions!

 

[AverageJoe]

Do you really have to start this argument here, Ray? It's all over the internet and on most sites already. Truly this is ridiculous! LOL

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I would really like to get some of you non-Cals or even "Anti-Cals" to chime in here and help me out...

I have heard a number of Anti-Calvinist apologists saying that Calvinists are interpreting Ephesians 1:4 all wrong; that we are saying we are chosen before the foundation of the world when the verse says chosen "IN HIM" before the foundation of the world as if including the prepositional phrase "In Him" is supposed to make the Calvinist-Arminian argument magically go away?

According to their rationale, we are not "Elect" until we are actually saved and are placed "In Christ?" I think it is something to the effect that God predestined his son to die for the sins of the world and therefore those who CHOOSE CHRIST become the elect? Help me out here, I really do not want to misquote or misrepresent their position. I want to understand it so I can either get converted back to "Free-Willy-Dom" or at least have accurate information in order to refute this. I am being serious here!

I believe Leighton Flowers is among those who takes such a position.

The big problem I see here is that such would require God having no clue whatsoever who will and who will not believe on his son! Christ died for everyone yet no one in particular! Any "Open Theists" here?

I am just wondering if anyone is familiar with this position or actually uses this approach in order to contend with "Evil Calvinists" as myself.

Please come and set me straight! Please clear up my misconceptions!

You’re very strongly assuming you are among the elect. What if you’re incorrect in that regard? What if you’ve just psychologically persuaded yourself into adopting the attributes of a Christian and are actually just a non-elect hoping for a change of status with God, which is never possible because you weren’t chosen to begin with?

 

[Ekklesian]

You’re very strongly assuming you are among the elect. What if you’re incorrect in that regard? What if you’ve just psychologically persuaded yourself into adopting the attributes of a Christian and are actually just a non-elect hoping for a change of status with God, which is never possible because you weren’t chosen to begin with?

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: - Romans 8:16

 

[ALAYMAN]

I'm probably not going to stay in this conversation long (got bored with this unsettleable debate years ago), lol, but in the spirit of answering your question as a non-Calvinist, most that I know answer it something like this...

Soteriology 101

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Do you really have to start this argument here, Ray? It's all over the internet and on most sites already. Truly this is ridiculous! LOL

I don't want to start an argument. I want someone to please explain this position to me so I can better understand! Perhaps It will be key to my breaking out of this Calvinist cult I have found myself in!

 

[Baptist Renegade]

You’re very strongly assuming you are among the elect. What if you’re incorrect in that regard? What if you’ve just psychologically persuaded yourself into adopting the attributes of a Christian and are actually just a non-elect hoping for a change of status with God, which is never possible because you weren’t chosen to begin with?

We are commanded to make our calling and election sure are we not (2 Pet 1:10)?

How does one come to find themselves "In Christ?"

Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

And who is responsible for turning to Christ in repentance and faith?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

There is only one person in this world I could possibly know of who is one of God's Elect and that is myself. You have no idea whether I am elect or not and I have no idea whether you are elect but hopefully you have that matter settled for yourself right? We can discern who is a fellow believer based upon spiritual fruit and visible evidence but even this may be deceiving as many have witnessed first-hand on the FFF and possibly in the real world having good friends apostatize and depart from the faith but I digress...

This is a straw man tactic used by many of the rabid anti-cals including Bob Wilkin. There really is no mystery here!

This is completely outside of the scope of the question I have asked! Can you be honest with me and may I ask why you made such a statement?

 

[Baptist Renegade]

I'm probably not going to stay in this conversation long (got bored with this unsettleable debate years ago), lol, but in the spirit of answering your question as a non-Calvinist, most that I know answer it something like this...

Soteriology 101

Thank you for the response. I believe Leighton Flowers is the main one making such an argument right now and he seems to be one of the major "Champions" of the Anti-Calvinist faithful right now. Therefore, I believe we could use this as a good starting point.

Now is the assertion being made that one is not "Elect" until they are "In Christ?" I know there are a number of semantics here so hopefully I can clarify and qualify my position on the matter:

As I have already stated to Huk, we are responsible to respond to the gospel call in repentance and faith towards the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore MUST be born again! No one is automatically regenerate simply because they are "Elect, Chosen, Predestined, or Foreknown of God." Would you agree? I know there may be some "Hypers" out there who may disagree but such are outside of the mainstream of pretty much any modern Reformed scholar or speaker I could name. Ephesians 2:1-10 is a strong proof text for this.

However, is election synonymous with regeneration? I would assert that all who are regenerate are elect but not all who are elect (chosen of God) are yet regenerate. It is highly likely that many of God's elect have yet to be born! If such is not the case, what is the purpose of going out and preaching the Gospel to every nation?

Looking at the context of Eph 1:4, we understand that Paul is addressing those presently in his company: According as he hath chosen "US" in him. Of course, 2000 years later, we who name the name of Christ may also include ourselves with the "US" in this statement! All who are IN CHRIST from eternity past to the end of this age have been chosen by God from the foundation of the world! How else is this to be interpreted? Vs. 5 seems to double down on the matter stating that we are predestined to adoption!

This is where the position of men like Leighton Flowers seems problematic to me as it does not seem to take into account God's foreknowledge nor does it take into account the matter of man's total depravity whereby mankind WILL NOT seek out God in the first place! Much of his position therefore smacks of Open Theism!

I never wanted to be a Calvinist! I came to this position kicking and screaming! I used to be a rabid anti-Calvinist myself calling Calvinism an "Enemy of the Gospel" and everything else. What pushed me over to the "Dark Side" was my encounter with an "Open Theist" who was trying to help me refute Calvinistic beliefs. I decided that honest Bible exegesis was a better route to take and this is where I have landed.

I really wish I could listen to Leighton Flowers but he seems like all the rest being intent upon mischaracterizing and misrepresenting the Calvinist position in order to appeal to their anti-Calvinistic base of followers!

I would rather have someone accurately and fairly articulate my position and then explain why they disagree. I believe such would be more fruitful and Christ-honoring than what is going on these days! I don't think we will ever settle the matter but hopefully what comes out of such discussions is edifying to all. That is all I ask.

 

[aleshanee]

I would really like to get some of you non-Cals or even "Anti-Cals" to chime in here and help me out...

i don;t know if you will remember... ..but you and i got into this discussion once before.. many years ago... in fact i and a couple of other "freewillys" ..(as you called us)... tried to discuss this with you.. dr bob... tom cassidy... the patebald-brothers.. and a few others... all calvinists who had different labels for every kind of belief and variation of belief...... .

it got absolutely nowhere.....just left a bunch of forum members mad at each other..... and from what i remember...at the end of it all, i got labelled a semi-pelagian heretic.... i didn;t even know what that meant at the time.. and had to look it up.... ... ....it didn;t leave me feeling insulted to learn what it meant... but neither did i agree with everything it implied.... . ..

i doubt that you have changed your mind since then... and i certainly have not.... . but in the years since that discussion, i have seen this issue brought up... debated... and argued countless times... (always brought up by calvinists themselves..you seldom ever see a "freewilly" bring it up)... ... .. and i can honestly say i have never seen anything good come from it.. other than the temporary feeling of intellectual superiority the calvinists seem to get - who always walk away claiming they won the debate.. but who always come back with it again when that feeling wears off..

however.... i can say i have seen friends separated by it... lifelong friendships ruined because of it.. ... heard of churches split and destroyed over it.. read historical accounts of people burned at the stake because of it.... ..and even seen people previously thought to be devout christians... but who went deep into the extreme end of calvinism trying to work it all out - throw everything away and become apostate - now claiming they do not even believe in God anymore..... ... ..and all us who have been here a while, have seen that happen to people right here on the fff...

so i ask.....does the debate that rages all over the internet about calvinism serve God?... or does it serve the people involved in the arguments?.... . is God glorified by any of it?.. . .... faith does not look for proof or reasons... it never feels it has to.... .mankind..even if able to use all 9 billion cells and synapses of his flesh and blood brain - and even if he has mastered the arts of human logic and debate.. . cannot understand - much less make dogmatic pronouncments - about what God can or cannot do.... . and yet from what i have seen that is what calvinism is all about......attempting to force our infinite God into the confines of the human mind.... like trying to rebuild the tower of babel - it;s an exhaustive work that comes to nothing.. and leaves people divided..... .. .. so, as a friend who is happy to see you back on the forum - ..that;s all i will say in contribution to this topic.. ....

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

We are commanded to make our calling and election sure are we not (2 Pet 1:10)?

How does one come to find themselves "In Christ?"

And who is responsible for turning to Christ in repentance and faith?

There is only one person in this world I could possibly know of who is one of God's Elect and that is myself. You have no idea whether I am elect or not and I have no idea whether you are elect but hopefully you have that matter settled for yourself right? We can discern who is a fellow believer based upon spiritual fruit and visible evidence but even this may be deceiving as many have witnessed first-hand on the FFF and possibly in the real world having good friends apostatize and depart from the faith but I digress...

This is a straw man tactic used by many of the rabid anti-cals including Bob Wilkin. There really is no mystery here!

This is completely outside of the scope of the question I have asked! Can you be honest with me and may I ask why you made such a statement?

I can answer your question in one word: hope.

If Calvinism is factual, I’d rather not be part of any form of Protestant Christianity.

Now, if you’d like to get into the particulars of why I find Calvinism a false doctrine, I’d be happy to comply.

 

[AverageJoe]

I don't want to start an argument. I want someone to please explain this position to me so I can better understand! Perhaps It will be key to my breaking out of this Calvinist cult I have found myself in!

We were always taught that the "in Him" occurred when we got saved. I'd have to study this further to recall all of the things said about the verse by different people.

 

[AverageJoe]

What you are describing is the contention of the Arminian, Church of Christ's Robert Shanks book, Elect in the Son.
I read it years ago as an assignment for a class on Soteriology. It was a weak argument, and it did not convince me at all.

Elect in the Son: Shank, Robert: 9781556610929: Amazon.com: Books

Elect in the Son [Shank, Robert] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Elect in the Son

www.amazon.com

BTW, he wrote another book "Life in the Son," where he tries to prove that you can lose your salvation.

https://www.amazon.com/Life-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610912

Another weak book. My grandma gave it to me in 1984.

Definitely fits most of the CoC doctrines. I've read both books years ago.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

i don;t know if you will remember... ..but you and i got into this discussion once before.. many years ago... in fact i and a couple of other "freewillys" ..(as you called us)... tried to discuss this with you.. dr bob... tom cassidy... the patebald-brothers.. and a few others... all calvinists who had different labels for every kind of belief and variation of belief...... .

it got absolutely nowhere.....just left a bunch of forum members mad at each other..... and from what i remember...at the end of it all, i got labelled a semi-pelagian heretic.... i didn;t even know what that meant at the time.. and had to look it up.... ... ....it didn;t leave me feeling insulted to learn what it meant... but neither did i agree with everything it implied.... . ..

i doubt that you have changed your mind since then... and i certainly have not.... . but in the years since that discussion, i have seen this issue brought up... debated... and argued countless times... (always brought up by calvinists themselves..you seldom ever see a "freewilly" bring it up)... ... .. and i can honestly say i have never seen anything good come from it.. other than the temporary feeling of intellectual superiority the calvinists seem to get - who always walk away claiming they won the debate.. but who always come back with it again when that feeling wears off..

however.... i can say i have seen friends separated by it... lifelong friendships ruined because of it.. ... heard of churches split and destroyed over it.. read historical accounts of people burned at the stake because of it.... ..and even seen people previously thought to be devout christians... but who went deep into the extreme end of calvinism trying to work it all out - throw everything away and become apostate - now claiming they do not even believe in God anymore..... ... ..and all us that have been here a while have seen that happen to people right here on the fff...

so i ask.....does the debate that rages all over the internet about calvinism serve God?... or does it serve the people involved in the arguments?.... . is God glorified by any of it?.. . .... faith does not look for proof or reasons... it never feels it has to.... .mankind..even if able to use all 9 billion cells and synapses of his flesh and blood brain - and even if he has mastered the arts of human logic and debate.. . cannot understand - much less make dogmatic pronouncments - about what God can or cannot do.... . and yet from what i have seen that is what calvinism is all about......attempting to force our infinite God into the confines of the human mind.... like trying to rebuild the tower of babel.. ..it;s an exhaustive work that comes to nothing.. and leaves people divided..... .. .. so, as a friend who is happy to see you back on the forum - ..that;s all i will say in contribution to this topic.. ....

First of all, if I have ever offended you in any manner regarding this, please accept my humble apology! I hope I have somewhat grown in grace since then. The problem with this issue and the reason why there is so much contention is because both sides have been intentionally misrepresented by the other to the point that your average Pastor/Teacher can hardly bring up the issue or go through a passage of scripture where the doctrine of election is clearly expressed!

The problem is we often make the issue about us and elevate our position above the authority and sufficiency of scripture. This is where we have to deal with our pride and ensure it is about God, about what is edifying to others, and not about us! The reason there is strife and contention is because we are too much focused on US rather than about God!

And I have seen the cycle myself. I don't think I know of any Calvinists who have apostatized (some have gone extremely liberal, one FFF example I am thinking of) but I do know of one who went the Unitarian Universalist route before deciding he was full-blown atheist - some here likely know who I am speaking of. One extreme is fatalism and the other is universalism: both are heretical and very wrong! A well-balanced position embraces both God's Sovereignty and Man's Responsibility and in order to get there as a Church congregation, these issues need to be adequately and accurately represented.

And for the record, a Semi-Pelagian is someone who claims that it is man’s responsibility to take the first step towards God whereas an Arminian acknowledges that God must be the one taking the first step revealing himself so that a man may respond in faith. Calvinists who automatically label anyone who is not Calvinist as being "Semi-Pelagian" are dead wrong and may even have to give account to God regarding the bearing of false witness against their brother! I do not wish to be that person!

We do not have to agree, we may never agree and that is just fine. There are some essential doctrines on which we must agree and others where there will always be some disagreement. We should be able to exercise adequate spiritual maturity and charity in these matters. We may disagree about election but so long as we understand we have received the spirit of adoption and are, in fact, "in that number," then this is what matters! We do not know who the elect are so we preach to EVERYONE and God will draw those of whom he so chooses and we can rest in the fact that he will be faithful to do so!

I believe that the consultation of sources outside of whatever given position you may have is a good thing and will keep you on your toes! Just be careful to allow the scriptures to have the ultimate rule and authority!

Peace

 

[Baptist Renegade]

I can answer your question in one word: hope.

If Calvinism is factual, I’d rather not be part of any form of Protestant Christianity.

Now, if you’d like to get into the particulars of why I find Calvinism a false doctrine, I’d be happy to comply.

Nope, I am not going to argue with you. I find such interactions completely fruitless and not worth my (or your) time.

I do find your middle statement troublesome though and hope you would reconsider. The Word of God must have supremacy over whatever position we happen to arrive! Would you really reject the Word of God if scriptures clearly supported the Calvinistic doctrines of grace? I hope this is not what you meant!

And for the record, I do not consider Arminianism to be a false doctrine - just a position for which I disagree. Doesn't mean I don't try to better understand and therefore obtain respect towards those who hold to such a position! Might I encourage you to do the same regarding your Calvinistic leaning brethren?

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Nope, I am not going to argue with you. I find such interactions completely fruitless and not worth my (or your) time.

I didn’t use the word argue. What I said is: “Now, if you’d like to get into the particulars of why I find Calvinism a false doctrine, I’d be happy to comply.”

 

[Baptist Renegade]

What you are describing is the contention of the Arminian, Church of Christ's Robert Shanks book, Elect in the Son.
I read it years ago as an assignment for a class on Soteriology. It was a weak argument, and it did not convince me at all.

Elect in the Son: Shank, Robert: 9781556610929: Amazon.com: Books

Elect in the Son [Shank, Robert] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Elect in the Son

www.amazon.com

BTW, he wrote another book "Life in the Son," where he tries to prove that you can lose your salvation.

https://www.amazon.com/Life-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610912

Another weak book. My grandma gave it to me in 1984.

I may have to read it. Thanks for the recommendation! Are you familiar at all with Leighton Flowers? I am wondering if perhaps Robert Shanks may be one of Mr. Flowers' influences? This is where I have primarily heard such an argument.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

I didn’t use the word argue. What I said is: “Now, if you’d like to get into the particulars of why I find Calvinism a false doctrine, I’d be happy to comply.”

OK, my apologies! I guess I just assumed that such a conversation would lead to an argument. Do you actually believe Calvinism to be a false doctrine (as in heretical) or do you just strongly disagree with the position?

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I believe it to be an incorrect interpretation of Scripture. I’ll reserve the word heretical from a philosophical perspective.

Just to clarify your stance…I take it that you believe God predestined certain individuals to be “elect,” or in other words, it was dictated by God prior to birth, who will be saved. Is this an accurate representation of your belief?

 

[FSSL]

I noticed that all of the believing posters on this forum are “Elect”!

 

[AverageJoe]

Nope, I am not going to argue with you. I find such interactions completely fruitless and not worth my (or your) time.

I do find your middle statement troublesome though and hope you would reconsider. The Word of God must have supremacy over whatever position we happen to arrive! Would you really reject the Word of God if scriptures clearly supported the Calvinistic doctrines of grace? I hope this is not what you meant!

And for the record, I do not consider Arminianism to be a false doctrine - just a position for which I disagree. Doesn't mean I don't try to better understand and therefore obtain respect towards those who hold to such a position! Might I encourage you to do the same regarding your Calvinistic leaning brethren?

So, basically, by your own statement, you ARE here to argue about C Vs. A....UGH! Ray, I thought I knew you better than this. Fruitless arguments on both sides, leading to NOTHING profitable. The Bible tells us to avoid these kinds of conversations. There are better things to be concentrating on.