Church "by laws" and "convenants"

[praise_yeshua]

What do you mean by "personal liability"?

I can't speak for Tom but in our case, as an independent church that is "owned" by the congregation, corporate status separates the personal from the corporeal. So if the church were to get sued, the only assets available to the plaintiff would be those held in the name of the corporation. They may be able to bankrupt the church corporately but not all the of the members individually.

Why would someone sue the church? and do you have any legal reference where a "by law" or "covenant" prevented an individual from being "sued" in such a case?

I'm looking or real examples. Not something "hypothetical" that might apply regardless of "by law" and "covenant".

Off the top of my head I would say that the lawsuit against John MacArthur would be an example. If the church were not incorporated the plaintiff could have named every member of the church as a defendant.

Which lawsuit. Be specific.

One lawsuit was targeted specifically at the staff and would have never been targeted at the "members".

Either way, you can't sue members if there are no "members". Even then, the actions of one person aren't applicable to all regardless of "incorporation".

They always go for the deepest pocket.

Okay. How does that change anything. If the "deep pocket" wasn't involved.... how can they go after the "deep pocket"? "By laws" and "covenants" change nothing. They don't prevent lawsuits and they aren't the legal justification for the dismissal of either civil or criminal lawsuits.

 

[bgwilkinson]

What do you mean by "personal liability"?

I can't speak for Tom but in our case, as an independent church that is "owned" by the congregation, corporate status separates the personal from the corporeal. So if the church were to get sued, the only assets available to the plaintiff would be those held in the name of the corporation. They may be able to bankrupt the church corporately but not all the of the members individually.

Why would someone sue the church? and do you have any legal reference where a "by law" or "covenant" prevented an individual from being "sued" in such a case?

I'm looking or real examples. Not something "hypothetical" that might apply regardless of "by law" and "covenant".

Off the top of my head I would say that the lawsuit against John MacArthur would be an example. If the church were not incorporated the plaintiff could have named every member of the church as a defendant.

Which lawsuit. Be specific.

One lawsuit was targeted specifically at the staff and would have never been targeted at the "members".

Either way, you can't sue members if there are no "members". Even then, the actions of one person aren't applicable to all regardless of "incorporation".

They always go for the deepest pocket.

Okay. How does that change anything. If the "deep pocket" wasn't involved.... how can they go after the "deep pocket"? "By laws" and "covenants" change nothing. They don't prevent lawsuits and they aren't the legal justification for the dismissal of either civil or criminal lawsuits.

I'm lost. I do not advocate that incorporation as a not for profit prevents suits.
Anybody can sue anybody for almost any reason, it may be tossed out but one still has to respond with a lawyer.

 

[subllibrm]

Bylaws are part of the documentation for incorporation. Incorporation is the umbrella shield keeping the personal property of church members out of a law suit. Sorry if that wasn't made clear enough earlier.

As to the OP I already gave answers. Bylaws can speak to processes/policies and the resulting expectations. They can identify roles and responsibilities. They identify the structure of the organization. The identify where the authority lies for various matters.

I will give a couple of examples from our church.

Business meetings must be announced at least two weeks prior to the meeting.  If there are matters to be decided beyond the normal (i.e. the quarterly treasures report) that proposal must also be announced two weeks prior. This could include staffing changes, budget adjustments or new expenditures not included in the annual budget.

Elections. Officers, term lengths, nomination process and ballot rules are all documented.

Hiring of pastors. There is a whole process spelled out on how this happens, how the search committee is appointed, how they do the job and when they report to the congregation. The process of candidating and voting to call are also spelled out.

All of these are in place to make sure that there is an understood and agreed upon way to deal with these matters.

Covenants? Yeah, we don't have one.

 

[subllibrm]

PY has a new hobby horse. His enthusiasm for his new toy is adorable. 

Okay, I might as well just  tell you so you can sleep tonight. We all have bylaws and covenants because Calvin told us to.

"Disclaimer"...... This is NOT about John Calvin or any of his teachings.

I knew that. I can see that you have a brand new burr under your saddle. I just figured it would be fun to put Calvin in the post!  ;D

 

[praise_yeshua]

What do you mean by "personal liability"?

I can't speak for Tom but in our case, as an independent church that is "owned" by the congregation, corporate status separates the personal from the corporeal. So if the church were to get sued, the only assets available to the plaintiff would be those held in the name of the corporation. They may be able to bankrupt the church corporately but not all the of the members individually.

Why would someone sue the church? and do you have any legal reference where a "by law" or "covenant" prevented an individual from being "sued" in such a case?

I'm looking or real examples. Not something "hypothetical" that might apply regardless of "by law" and "covenant".

Off the top of my head I would say that the lawsuit against John MacArthur would be an example. If the church were not incorporated the plaintiff could have named every member of the church as a defendant.

Which lawsuit. Be specific.

One lawsuit was targeted specifically at the staff and would have never been targeted at the "members".

Either way, you can't sue members if there are no "members". Even then, the actions of one person aren't applicable to all regardless of "incorporation".

They always go for the deepest pocket.

Okay. How does that change anything. If the "deep pocket" wasn't involved.... how can they go after the "deep pocket"? "By laws" and "covenants" change nothing. They don't prevent lawsuits and they aren't the legal justification for the dismissal of either civil or criminal lawsuits.

I'm lost. I do not advocate that incorporation as a not for profit prevents suits.
Anybody can sue anybody for almost any reason, it may be tossed out but one still has to respond with a lawyer.

I'm looking for instances inwhich "by laws" and "covenants"..... ACTUALLY shielded a church from some lawsuit. Lawyers and the like can talk all they want to about possibilities. I want to know if all this "TALK" is worth much of anything.

"lawsuits" are a reason generally given for all the "moral regulations" espoused in your average "church covenant" and "by laws".

 

[praise_yeshua]

PY has a new hobby horse. His enthusiasm for his new toy is adorable. 

Okay, I might as well just  tell you so you can sleep tonight. We all have bylaws and covenants because Calvin told us to.

"Disclaimer"...... This is NOT about John Calvin or any of his teachings.

I knew that. I can see that you have a brand new burr under your saddle. I just figured it would be fun to put Calvin in the post!  ;D

This "burr under my saddle" has been there for years.

Just trying to "perk" everyone up and do something productive at the same time.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Bylaws are part of the documentation for incorporation. Incorporation is the umbrella shield keeping the personal property of church members out of a law suit. Sorry if that wasn't made clear enough earlier.

As to the OP I already gave answers. Bylaws can speak to processes/policies and the resulting expectations. They can identify roles and responsibilities. They identify the structure of the organization. The identify where the authority lies for various matters.

I will give a couple of examples from our church.

Business meetings must be announced at least two weeks prior to the meeting.  If there are matters to be decided beyond the normal (i.e. the quarterly treasures report) that proposal must also be announced two weeks prior. This could include staffing changes, budget adjustments or new expenditures not included in the annual budget.

Elections. Officers, term lengths, nomination process and ballot rules are all documented.

Hiring of pastors. There is a whole process spelled out on how this happens, how the search committee is appointed, how they do the job and when they report to the congregation. The process of candidating and voting to call are also spelled out.

All of these are in place to make sure that there is an understood and agreed upon way to deal with these matters.

Covenants? Yeah, we don't have one.

Thanks for the answer. I can mostly agree with what you said. However, I don't see much of a real "shield" existing from a lawsuit. Each State is a little different but many States have taken it upon themselves to deal with issues created when non profits choose not to "incorporate". Most lawyers still recommend that you congregation move forward with incorporation but I think its largely just precautionary. I don't see how a "by law" can provide much of a shelter. If they by laws are ignored and some individuals are held to them and some are not, then the by laws, legally, are pretty useless.

 

[Ransom]

Sure they did. She post #2.

Why do you ass-u-me that "structure of legal protection" means protection from lawsuits?

 

[subllibrm]

Bylaws are part of the documentation for incorporation. Incorporation is the umbrella shield keeping the personal property of church members out of a law suit. Sorry if that wasn't made clear enough earlier.

As to the OP I already gave answers. Bylaws can speak to processes/policies and the resulting expectations. They can identify roles and responsibilities. They identify the structure of the organization. The identify where the authority lies for various matters.

I will give a couple of examples from our church.

Business meetings must be announced at least two weeks prior to the meeting.  If there are matters to be decided beyond the normal (i.e. the quarterly treasures report) that proposal must also be announced two weeks prior. This could include staffing changes, budget adjustments or new expenditures not included in the annual budget.

Elections. Officers, term lengths, nomination process and ballot rules are all documented.

Hiring of pastors. There is a whole process spelled out on how this happens, how the search committee is appointed, how they do the job and when they report to the congregation. The process of candidating and voting to call are also spelled out.

All of these are in place to make sure that there is an understood and agreed upon way to deal with these matters.

Covenants? Yeah, we don't have one.

Thanks for the answer. I can mostly agree with what you said. However, I don't see much of a real "shield" existing from a lawsuit. Each State is a little different but many States have taken it upon themselves to deal with issues created when non profits choose not to "incorporate". Most lawyers still recommend that you congregation move forward with incorporation but I think its largely just precautionary. I don't see how a "by law" can provide much of a shelter. If they by laws are ignored and some individuals are held to them and some are not, then the by laws, legally, are pretty useless.

Go back and read the first paragraph. The incorporation is the shield. Bylaws are part of the incorporation documents. Not every corporation has bylaws. Most churches do for many of the reasons I gave.  It has already been noted but sometimes the bylaws invite a lawsuit. For instance, when they haven't been followed properly. That then gives the plaintiff (usually a church member) something to point at to say they done me wrong. Even so, the pew warming church member is not at risk of losing anything in court due to such an event.

Again, the bylaws do not shield the members. The corporate umbrella does.

FWIW in Michigan a business corporation needs to identify officers (at least two) and hold at least one corporate business meeting annually (reported with records)  to maintain the corporation.  After that most of what is in there is the people involved protecting themselves from each other.  ;D

 

[Ransom]

PY has a new hobby horse.

Broadcasting one's ignorance for all to see is a hobby now? Cool.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sure they did. She post #2.

Why do you ass-u-me that "structure of legal protection" means protection from lawsuits?

I assume it included lawsuits and I'm not talking about the "suit" itself.... but the result. Are you saying it doesn't?

 

[bgwilkinson]

In Indiana By-laws are required of any not for profit corporation.

It would be the heights of arrogance as well as plan stupid to have a not for profit without by-laws.

The state would just use what is written in the statute as your by-laws, not wise.

If you have a corporation you have by-laws like it or not.

It seems a moot point.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Bylaws are part of the documentation for incorporation. Incorporation is the umbrella shield keeping the personal property of church members out of a law suit. Sorry if that wasn't made clear enough earlier.

As to the OP I already gave answers. Bylaws can speak to processes/policies and the resulting expectations. They can identify roles and responsibilities. They identify the structure of the organization. The identify where the authority lies for various matters.

I will give a couple of examples from our church.

Business meetings must be announced at least two weeks prior to the meeting.  If there are matters to be decided beyond the normal (i.e. the quarterly treasures report) that proposal must also be announced two weeks prior. This could include staffing changes, budget adjustments or new expenditures not included in the annual budget.

Elections. Officers, term lengths, nomination process and ballot rules are all documented.

Hiring of pastors. There is a whole process spelled out on how this happens, how the search committee is appointed, how they do the job and when they report to the congregation. The process of candidating and voting to call are also spelled out.

All of these are in place to make sure that there is an understood and agreed upon way to deal with these matters.

Covenants? Yeah, we don't have one.

Thanks for the answer. I can mostly agree with what you said. However, I don't see much of a real "shield" existing from a lawsuit. Each State is a little different but many States have taken it upon themselves to deal with issues created when non profits choose not to "incorporate". Most lawyers still recommend that you congregation move forward with incorporation but I think its largely just precautionary. I don't see how a "by law" can provide much of a shelter. If they by laws are ignored and some individuals are held to them and some are not, then the by laws, legally, are pretty useless.

Go back and read the first paragraph. The incorporation is the shield. Bylaws are part of the incorporation documents. Not every corporation has bylaws. Most churches do for many of the reasons I gave.  It has already been noted but sometimes the bylaws invite a lawsuit. For instance, when they haven't been followed properly. That then gives the plaintiff (usually a church member) something to point at to say they done me wrong. Even so, the pew warming church member is not at risk of losing anything in court due to such an event.

Again, the bylaws do not shield the members. The corporate umbrella does.

FWIW in Michigan a business corporation needs to identify officers (at least two) and hold at least one corporate business meeting annually (reported with records)  to maintain the corporation.  After that most of what is in there is the people involved protecting themselves from each other.  ;D

The Incorporation is not beyond the requirements of the law. "Incorporation" does bring into play laws that did not apply before "incorporation". Give me an example where an unincorporated assembly faced a lawsuit in-which the "deep pocketed" individual was required to shell out monies that he, himself, would have not been otherwise liable.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

They always go for the deepest pocket.

That's law 101.  You could have an airtight case against someone, but if there's no possibility of getting any form of damages, and you can't pay the lawyers out of your own pocket, the lawyers won't take the case. 

(Well, there are pro bono cases for visibility, but that's another story.)

 

[praise_yeshua]

In Indiana By-laws are required of any not for profit corporation.

It would be the heights of arrogance as well as plan stupid to have a not for profit without by-laws.

The state would just use what is written in the statute as your by-laws, not wise.

If you have a corporation you have by-laws like it or not.

It seems a moot point.

Are you a lawyer in the State of Indiana?

Are you saying that it is stupid for a church assembly to not be incorporated?

 

[praise_yeshua]

They always go for the deepest pocket.

That's law 101.  You could have an airtight case against someone, but if there's no possibility of getting any form of damages, and you can't pay the lawyers out of your own pocket, the lawyers won't take the case. 

(Well, there are pro bono cases for visibility, but that's another story.)

Who does law 101 apply to a local congregation?

Is your little church fellowship "incorporated"?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

They always go for the deepest pocket.

That's law 101.  You could have an airtight case against someone, but if there's no possibility of getting any form of damages, and you can't pay the lawyers out of your own pocket, the lawyers won't take the case. 

(Well, there are pro bono cases for visibility, but that's another story.)

Who does law 101 apply to a local congregation?

Is your little church fellowship "incorporated"?

Incorporated or not, if there's a good chance you can get money from a lawsuit, the lawyer will take the case.

 

[bgwilkinson]

In Indiana By-laws are required of any not for profit corporation.

It would be the heights of arrogance as well as plan stupid to have a not for profit without by-laws.

The state would just use what is written in the statute as your by-laws, not wise.

If you have a corporation you have by-laws like it or not.

It seems a moot point.

Are you a lawyer in the State of Indiana?

Are you saying that it is stupid for a church assembly to not be incorporated?

I am not a J Doc however we do have one on the board.

You would never know it he never uses it around us.

Over the last few years we got deep into Indiana not for profit law as the board worked on bringing order to the legal and financial mess that had been created since the 60s.

When  Glen Smith died, he was the treasurer, he was never replace. Bro. Hyles became the d facto treasurer and did what he pleased without any supervision whatsoever, except for his employees who did his wishes without question.

Because of this disaster many of us became involved in finding the way back to good legal and accounting practices, best practices.

Best practices is now our watch-word.

For a large organization with many members and many assets a not for profit is the answer.
Please don't say separation of church and state while the pastor is a functionary of the state at the wedding.

I think many have not thought out this church and state thing very well.

Remember Indianapolis Baptist Temple, pure folly.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Remember Indianapolis Baptist Temple, pure folly.

Not sure of the relation to the topic since IBT's main problem was Federal and incorporation is State.

Having said that, there are always back-seat critics of those who take a stand against tyranny.  Bunyan, Sillivan, Roloff, Dixon, Weatherford, etc.

You'll notice those back-seat critics do little if anything for the Lord and when they're dead, no one will remember their names.

Remember, it costs nothing to be a critic.

Wasn't Jesus a "critic"?

 

[bgwilkinson]

Remember Indianapolis Baptist Temple, pure folly.

Not sure of the relation to the topic since IBT's main problem was Federal and incorporation is State.

Having said that, there are always back-seat critics of those who take a stand against tyranny.  Bunyan, Sillivan, Roloff, Dixon, Weatherford, etc.

You'll notice those back-seat critics do little if anything for the Lord and when they're dead, no one will remember their names.

Remember, it costs nothing to be a critic.

I believe Tyndale paid for his critical work on Bible translation, He paid with his life.

Erasmus was also critical of the Roman church, but he was more careful than Tyndale.

Wyclife was also critical of the Roman church, but since things move so slow back than he had been dead over a decade before they finally got around to burning his bones.

I think being a critic is a good thing but sometimes it can cost more than you want to pay.