Constantine -- good guy or bad guy for Christianity?

[Izdaari]

Constantine? A very mixed bag, some major good and some major bad. On net balance, probably a wash.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

What is the quote from the false god?  I had a feeling that was who you might be referring to, so I did a Bing search and all I could find was stuff written by people who questioned his apostleship and basically called him a liar.  I couldn't find anything about quotes from false gods.

Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.

Euripedes work Bacchae about the god Dionysus where as being deity in the flesh, he tells his questioner “You are mortal, he is a god. If I were you, I would control my rage and sacrifice to him, rather than kick against the pricks.”

I have a hard time believing God would have to quote a false god to convict Saul's heart. But that is just me.

It was a common saying. Its no wonder it showed up in more than one place.

God didn't quote a "false God".... no more He quoted a false God when he tells use "he loves us". Are you going to search history and find all the times someone told someone else "I love you"..... until you find some questionable source?

Your bias is blinding you.

Meh. You're right about this; "God" didn't quote a "false God". I believe the "talking light" itself taht claimed to be Jesus really wasn't.

If the quote were the only red flag in my book about Paul, I could easily accept your position. But when one can find 20-30 more, well, the red flags add up and suspicion arises in my mind. And when Paul quotes pagan sources on a couple of occasions, well, that makes me wonder why he had to address it. (I understand the reasoning on Mars Hill but other places, not so much.)

Perhaps my bias is blinding me but that "bias" developed after literally a couple years of studying things that just didn't add up. And I would rather be blinded by bias than a light that claimed to be Jesus with no proof, especially since Paul himself admitted that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

What is the quote from the false god?  I had a feeling that was who you might be referring to, so I did a Bing search and all I could find was stuff written by people who questioned his apostleship and basically called him a liar.  I couldn't find anything about quotes from false gods.

Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.

Euripedes work Bacchae about the god Dionysus where as being deity in the flesh, he tells his questioner “You are mortal, he is a god. If I were you, I would control my rage and sacrifice to him, rather than kick against the pricks.”

I have a hard time believing God would have to quote a false god to convict Saul's heart. But that is just me.

It was a common saying. Its no wonder it showed up in more than one place.

God didn't quote a "false God".... no more He quoted a false God when he tells use "he loves us". Are you going to search history and find all the times someone told someone else "I love you"..... until you find some questionable source?

Your bias is blinding you.

Yep.  That sounds right to me.  SC, are you part of the Christian Identity Movement?

I never even heard of the Christian Identity Movement so I had to look it up. Seems like a racist organization which means it is anti-Christ. So the answer is "NO!". I choose to identify with the teachings of Jesus and not any religious movement of any stripe. "Red Letter" Christianity and the ancient Ebionites hold/held similar positions to mine but I do not identify with them either.

 

[christundivided]

What is the quote from the false god?  I had a feeling that was who you might be referring to, so I did a Bing search and all I could find was stuff written by people who questioned his apostleship and basically called him a liar.  I couldn't find anything about quotes from false gods.

Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.

Euripedes work Bacchae about the god Dionysus where as being deity in the flesh, he tells his questioner “You are mortal, he is a god. If I were you, I would control my rage and sacrifice to him, rather than kick against the pricks.”

I have a hard time believing God would have to quote a false god to convict Saul's heart. But that is just me.

It was a common saying. Its no wonder it showed up in more than one place.

God didn't quote a "false God".... no more He quoted a false God when he tells use "he loves us". Are you going to search history and find all the times someone told someone else "I love you"..... until you find some questionable source?

Your bias is blinding you.

Meh. You're right about this; "God" didn't quote a "false God". I believe the "talking light" itself taht claimed to be Jesus really wasn't.

If the quote were the only red flag in my book about Paul, I could easily accept your position. But when one can find 20-30 more, well, the red flags add up and suspicion arises in my mind. And when Paul quotes pagan sources on a couple of occasions, well, that makes me wonder why he had to address it. (I understand the reasoning on Mars Hill but other places, not so much.)

Perhaps my bias is blinding me but that "bias" developed after literally a couple years of studying things that just didn't add up. And I would rather be blinded by bias than a light that claimed to be Jesus with no proof, especially since Paul himself admitted that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light.

Yeah, Satan doesn't care about his own secret ways. That's why he had Paul (his servant) to spread the "facts" to billions of people.

Do you REALLY believe the most successful preacher/apostle/missionary that has ever lived.... "served up"... "false light".... "secretly as a servant of Satan"?

What did Paul get out of it?

 

[Castor Muscular]

Do you REALLY believe the most successful preacher/apostle/missionary that has ever lived.... "served up"... "false light".... "secretly as a servant of Satan"?

What did Paul get out of it?

Be careful.  There's another thread about highly successful preachers like Osteen, etc., who serve up a lot of false light.   

 

[christundivided]

Do you REALLY believe the most successful preacher/apostle/missionary that has ever lived.... "served up"... "false light".... "secretly as a servant of Satan"?

What did Paul get out of it?

Be careful.  There's another thread about highly successful preachers like Osteen, etc., who serve up a lot of false light. 

Not concerned at all. Are you trying to compare Olsteen to Paul? Seriously...

Olsteen might be popular but he hasn't had his name canonized along with hundreds if not thousands of his teachings. He didn't get ANYTHING out of it MOMENTARY. NOTHING.

No comparison. You can see Olsteen's and Meyer's motives. They are clear as day. You can't make the same charge against Paul. You have no evidence to convict him. Its nothing but self serving conjecture.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Do you REALLY believe the most successful preacher/apostle/missionary that has ever lived.... "served up"... "false light".... "secretly as a servant of Satan"?

What did Paul get out of it?

Be careful.  There's another thread about highly successful preachers like Osteen, etc., who serve up a lot of false light. 

Not concerned at all. Are you trying to compare Olsteen to Paul? Seriously...

Not at all.  But you can't measure the truth of a speaker by his success.  That's all. 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Yeah, Satan doesn't care about his own secret ways. That's why he had Paul (his servant) to spread the "facts" to billions of people.

Sarcasm noted but I'm not really sure I understand the point of what you are trying to say.

Do you REALLY believe the most successful preacher/apostle/missionary that has ever lived.... "served up"... "false light".... "secretly as a servant of Satan"?

Yes, I really do believe that. It has taken me a couple years of study, hours of prayer, sharing my "questions" with a couple theologically adapt men (including a Ph.D in New Testament studies at a prestigious Evangelical seminary) and even a period of clinical depression when the reality struck me hard, but yes, I do believe it.

What did Paul get out of it?

I cannot answer for him so this is only my guess. He was hell-bent on destroying the early Church and since it couldn't be destroyed from the outside with persecution, perhaps it could be destroyed from the inside with deceptive teaching, pulling the Church away from the teachings of Jesus. It may have been he was naive, dunno. But in either case, his profile fits the false prophet prophecy of Jesus as well as the Benjamite wolf prophecy of Jacob.

Oh, and what could Paul have gained? No person in the history of mankind other than possibly Jesus and Mohammed has had more "religious" influence through the centuries. Power can be intoxicating which might explain why he moped about when people didn't follow him any more.

 

[Izdaari]

What is the quote from the false god?  I had a feeling that was who you might be referring to, so I did a Bing search and all I could find was stuff written by people who questioned his apostleship and basically called him a liar.  I couldn't find anything about quotes from false gods.

Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.

Euripedes work Bacchae about the god Dionysus where as being deity in the flesh, he tells his questioner “You are mortal, he is a god. If I were you, I would control my rage and sacrifice to him, rather than kick against the pricks.”

I have a hard time believing God would have to quote a false god to convict Saul's heart. But that is just me.

It was a common saying. Its no wonder it showed up in more than one place.

God didn't quote a "false God".... no more He quoted a false God when he tells use "he loves us". Are you going to search history and find all the times someone told someone else "I love you"..... until you find some questionable source?

Your bias is blinding you.

Meh. You're right about this; "God" didn't quote a "false God". I believe the "talking light" itself taht claimed to be Jesus really wasn't.

If the quote were the only red flag in my book about Paul, I could easily accept your position. But when one can find 20-30 more, well, the red flags add up and suspicion arises in my mind. And when Paul quotes pagan sources on a couple of occasions, well, that makes me wonder why he had to address it. (I understand the reasoning on Mars Hill but other places, not so much.)

Perhaps my bias is blinding me but that "bias" developed after literally a couple years of studying things that just didn't add up. And I would rather be blinded by bias than a light that claimed to be Jesus with no proof, especially since Paul himself admitted that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light.

I can understand your concerns about Paul. I've wondered about some of the same things. But would God allow the works of a false prophet to be canonized? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

 

[Castor Muscular]

I can understand your concerns about Paul. I've wondered about some of the same things. But would God allow the works of a false prophet to be canonized? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

It might be a good way to separate the goats from the sheep.  Not saying that's the case, though.

What if he wasn't a false prophet, but just a guy who made errors and wandered off in wrong directions at times?  He was a brilliant man, but his arguments were not always sound.  I almost wonder if all his surviving epistles are in the canon just because there wasn't much of anything else to put there. 

 

[rsc2a]

I can understand your concerns about Paul. I've wondered about some of the same things. But would God allow the works of a false prophet to be canonized? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

It might be a good way to separate the goats from the sheep.  Not saying that's the case, though.

Personally I think God is more interested in people loving others (1 Cor 13 comes to mind) than playing gotcha with people who want sincerely to follow Jesus.

 

[Castor Muscular]

I can understand your concerns about Paul. I've wondered about some of the same things. But would God allow the works of a false prophet to be canonized? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

It might be a good way to separate the goats from the sheep.  Not saying that's the case, though.

Personally I think God is more interested in people loving others (1 Cor 13 comes to mind) than playing gotcha with people who want sincerely to follow Jesus.

It's not a game of gotcha.  How many times have people used what Paul wrote in order to NOT love others?  Hm?

 

[T-Bone]

I can understand your concerns about Paul. I've wondered about some of the same things. But would God allow the works of a false prophet to be canonized? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

It might be a good way to separate the goats from the sheep.  Not saying that's the case, though.

Personally I think God is more interested in people loving others (1 Cor 13 comes to mind) than playing gotcha with people who want sincerely to follow Jesus.

It's not a game of gotcha.  How many times have people used what Paul wrote in order to NOT love others?  Hm?

You know that mis-application of Scripture does not make it invalid...if that were the case no Scripture would stand.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

What is the quote from the false god?  I had a feeling that was who you might be referring to, so I did a Bing search and all I could find was stuff written by people who questioned his apostleship and basically called him a liar.  I couldn't find anything about quotes from false gods.

Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.

Euripedes work Bacchae about the god Dionysus where as being deity in the flesh, he tells his questioner “You are mortal, he is a god. If I were you, I would control my rage and sacrifice to him, rather than kick against the pricks.”

I have a hard time believing God would have to quote a false god to convict Saul's heart. But that is just me.

It was a common saying. Its no wonder it showed up in more than one place.

God didn't quote a "false God".... no more He quoted a false God when he tells use "he loves us". Are you going to search history and find all the times someone told someone else "I love you"..... until you find some questionable source?

Your bias is blinding you.

Meh. You're right about this; "God" didn't quote a "false God". I believe the "talking light" itself taht claimed to be Jesus really wasn't.

If the quote were the only red flag in my book about Paul, I could easily accept your position. But when one can find 20-30 more, well, the red flags add up and suspicion arises in my mind. And when Paul quotes pagan sources on a couple of occasions, well, that makes me wonder why he had to address it. (I understand the reasoning on Mars Hill but other places, not so much.)

Perhaps my bias is blinding me but that "bias" developed after literally a couple years of studying things that just didn't add up. And I would rather be blinded by bias than a light that claimed to be Jesus with no proof, especially since Paul himself admitted that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light.

I can understand your concerns about Paul. I've wondered about some of the same things. But would God allow the works of a false prophet to be canonized? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

Yeah, that was a sticking point for me too at one time. However, the canon had been tampered with before:

Jeremiah 8 tells how scribes replaced the Law of God with their own spin:

“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken; behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord, so what wisdom is in them?

And God purposely allowed false prophets to arise in Israel to test the people:

Deuteronomy 13:

“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

So if God tested people with false prophets and allowed scribes to interpolate the Torah, then I suppose He could allow Paul to be canonized.

 

[christundivided]

Do you REALLY believe the most successful preacher/apostle/missionary that has ever lived.... "served up"... "false light".... "secretly as a servant of Satan"?

What did Paul get out of it?

Be careful.  There's another thread about highly successful preachers like Osteen, etc., who serve up a lot of false light. 

Not concerned at all. Are you trying to compare Olsteen to Paul? Seriously...

Not at all.  But you can't measure the truth of a speaker by his success.  That's all.

Then lets just throw out everything Jesus said. One testament to validity of Jesus Christ is His success.

Act 5:38  And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39  But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

 

[christundivided]

What is the quote from the false god?  I had a feeling that was who you might be referring to, so I did a Bing search and all I could find was stuff written by people who questioned his apostleship and basically called him a liar.  I couldn't find anything about quotes from false gods.

Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.

Euripedes work Bacchae about the god Dionysus where as being deity in the flesh, he tells his questioner “You are mortal, he is a god. If I were you, I would control my rage and sacrifice to him, rather than kick against the pricks.”

I have a hard time believing God would have to quote a false god to convict Saul's heart. But that is just me.

It was a common saying. Its no wonder it showed up in more than one place.

God didn't quote a "false God".... no more He quoted a false God when he tells use "he loves us". Are you going to search history and find all the times someone told someone else "I love you"..... until you find some questionable source?

Your bias is blinding you.

Meh. You're right about this; "God" didn't quote a "false God". I believe the "talking light" itself taht claimed to be Jesus really wasn't.

If the quote were the only red flag in my book about Paul, I could easily accept your position. But when one can find 20-30 more, well, the red flags add up and suspicion arises in my mind. And when Paul quotes pagan sources on a couple of occasions, well, that makes me wonder why he had to address it. (I understand the reasoning on Mars Hill but other places, not so much.)

Perhaps my bias is blinding me but that "bias" developed after literally a couple years of studying things that just didn't add up. And I would rather be blinded by bias than a light that claimed to be Jesus with no proof, especially since Paul himself admitted that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light.

I can understand your concerns about Paul. I've wondered about some of the same things. But would God allow the works of a false prophet to be canonized? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

Yeah, that was a sticking point for me too at one time. However, the canon had been tampered with before:

Jeremiah 8 tells how scribes replaced the Law of God with their own spin:

“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken; behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord, so what wisdom is in them?

And God purposely allowed false prophets to arise in Israel to test the people:

Deuteronomy 13:

“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

So if God tested people with false prophets and allowed scribes to interpolate the Torah, then I suppose He could allow Paul to be canonized.

But.... YOU KNOW THE OUTCOME of the false prophets in the OT. You KNOW what became of them and God even told you about it. On the other hand, you have NOTHING from GOD against Paul.... and you reject him. Don't over think the issue and miss the obvious.

 

[christundivided]

I can understand your concerns about Paul. I've wondered about some of the same things. But would God allow the works of a false prophet to be canonized? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

It might be a good way to separate the goats from the sheep.  Not saying that's the case, though.

Personally I think God is more interested in people loving others (1 Cor 13 comes to mind) than playing gotcha with people who want sincerely to follow Jesus.

It's not a game of gotcha.  How many times have people used what Paul wrote in order to NOT love others?  Hm?

The misuse is obvious. I don't see where the question arises from???

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I can understand your concerns about Paul. I've wondered about some of the same things. But would God allow the works of a false prophet to be canonized? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

It might be a good way to separate the goats from the sheep.  Not saying that's the case, though.

What if he wasn't a false prophet, but just a guy who made errors and wandered off in wrong directions at times?  He was a brilliant man, but his arguments were not always sound.  I almost wonder if all his surviving epistles are in the canon just because there wasn't much of anything else to put there.

One of the things I am looking at is the Ebionite writings of the first century and the Marcionites oppression of them. I haven't studied it out diligently enough to come to a conclusion but it appears the Ebionites were trying to follow Christ alone and the Marcionites tried to push Paul to a god-like status. The Marcionites would try to destroy Ebionite writings that were not Pauline so (it has been stated) the Ebionites would disguise their writings to keep them from being destroyed. Clementine wrote about Peter's face-to-face meeting with a Simon Magus and because the issue was the keeping of the Law vs. the abolition of the Law, Simon Magus might have been a code name for Paul. And in the Dead Sea Scrolls (an Ebionite writing), James (Zaddick - "Just One") has been mentioned in some kind of church discipline against one recorded only as "the Spouter of Lies". And when one sees the Book of James in that light, it has been noted that James might have been organizing a trial for the same.

Again, speculation from various authors so I am not adhering to the above as fact, but various pieces seem to fit for me.

 

[christundivided]

I can understand your concerns about Paul. I've wondered about some of the same things. But would God allow the works of a false prophet to be canonized? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

It might be a good way to separate the goats from the sheep.  Not saying that's the case, though.

What if he wasn't a false prophet, but just a guy who made errors and wandered off in wrong directions at times?  He was a brilliant man, but his arguments were not always sound.  I almost wonder if all his surviving epistles are in the canon just because there wasn't much of anything else to put there.

One of the things I am looking at is the Ebionite writings of the first century and the Marcionites oppression of them. I haven't studied it out diligently enough to come to a conclusion but it appears the Ebionites were trying to follow Christ alone and the Marcionites tried to push Paul to a god-like status. The Marcionites would try to destroy Ebionite writings that were not Pauline so (it has been stated) the Ebionites would disguise their writings to keep them from being destroyed. Clementine wrote about Peter's face-to-face meeting with a Simon Magus and because the issue was the keeping of the Law vs. the abolition of the Law, Simon Magus might have been a code name for Paul. And in the Dead Sea Scrolls (an Ebionite writing), James (Zaddick - "Just One") has been mentioned in some kind of church discipline against one recorded only as "the Spouter of Lies". And when one sees the Book of James in that light, it has been noted that James might have been organizing a trial for the same.

Again, speculation from various authors so I am not adhering to the above as fact, but various pieces seem to fit for me.

The Ebionites rejected the divinity of Christ. So much for trying to FOLLOW Him. They simply used Him as means to an end. To garner validity to their cause.

Either way, such writings and struggles are too far removed from the days of the apostles to garner any real information to the contrary. You can't take a battle almost a 100 years after their death as a means to shed light on what "really happened".

 

[Castor Muscular]

The misuse is obvious. I don't see where the question arises from???

How do you always know what is misuse and what is use?  I know what I believe, and you know what you believe, but I also know lots of people who use Paul to prove points Paul was not trying to make. 

Perhaps that was intentional on the part of God, even if Paul belongs in the canon.