David Cloud Revisited

[Walt]

Why change?

That is a great question. Of course it presupposes that things in the past were superior to the present.

That of course brings us to the following. Which particular era of Christian history is the one in which we should drive the stake and never diverge from?

Each church should follow the Scriptures as they understand them... and the results should be left to God.  Conventions and meetings when men are honored for great numbers has been a blight on pastors and churches... it pushes them to try various "growth" stuff... in my opinion.

 

[16KJV11]

Why change?

That is a great question. Of course it presupposes that things in the past were superior to the present.

That of course brings us to the following. Which particular era of Christian history is the one in which we should drive the stake and never diverge from?

Each church should follow the Scriptures as they understand them... and the results should be left to God.  Conventions and meetings when men are honored for great numbers has been a blight on pastors and churches... it pushes them to try various "growth" stuff... in my opinion.

Conventions also initiate a majority rule opinion of sorts which influences a lot of other churches within that particular convention. While IFB's are often criticized for their follow ship of certain High exposure individuals, those denominations with a hierarchy are just as guilty if not more of being influenced by their hierarchy.

 

[FSSL]

IFBs do not have a biblical standard when it comes to music. The Bible does not give parameters regarding timings and beats.

The IFB ?secret? is that there is no commonality among the IFBs regarding these styles. There?s a lot of fighting and conflicting seminars.

Get a bunch of pastors together at a IFB conference and look around during the singing. You will see mouths singing and other mouths shut.

Bill Gothard was contradicted by Frank Garlock who is contradicted by David Parker who is contradicted by Ron Hamilton ... and bless that fundy church who dared to hold their microphones like Pensacola... then... there is Steve Green and Michael Card!

 

[Twisted]

IFBs do not have a biblical standard when it comes to music.

Since they don't, who does?  (besides anything goes?)

 

[FSSL]

Anything DOES go... as long as there is no Scriptural violation.

 

[Twisted]

Anything DOES go... as long as there is no Scriptural violation.

That makes no sense.

So what constitutes a Scriptural violation?

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

We don't have "standards." We have ONE standard. The word of God.

If the bible says do it, we do it.

If the bible says don't do it, we don't do it.

If the bible is silent on the subject, so are we.

Problem solved.

 

[FSSL]

That makes no sense.

So what constitutes a Scriptural violation?

Blatantly bad theology
Bad lyrics

 

[FSSL]

We don't have "standards." We have ONE standard. The word of God.

If the bible says do it, we do it.

If the bible says don't do it, we don't do it.

If the bible is silent on the subject, so are we.

Problem solved.

Perfect sense to me.

 

[Twisted]

That makes no sense.

So what constitutes a Scriptural violation?

Blatantly bad theology
Bad lyrics

So you do have a biblical standard.  I thought you would.

 

[FSSL]

So you do have a biblical standard.  I thought you would.

Thomas Cassidy correctly points out a necessary distinction.

Scripture = Standard (ie Canon)

?Standards? as defined among fundamentalism means something different. Standards, in IFB language, are applications of principles found, claimed to be found in the Bible or just the pastor?s whim.

I appreciate his point and wonder why I have used the word ?standard? all along myself.

 

[Twisted]

So you do have a biblical standard.  I thought you would.

Thomas Cassidy correctly points out a necessary distinction.

Scripture = Standard (ie Canon)

?Standards? as defined among fundamentalism means something different. Standards, in IFB language, are applications of principles found, claimed to be found in the Bible or just the pastor?s whim.

I appreciate his point and wonder why I have used the word ?standard? all along myself.

Personally, I think you're playing word games with yourself.

Everyone has to take that Scripture and determine what it says and how it applies to every aspect of life.  You wanna call it a "standard" or whatever, the end result is the same.

For whatever reason you seem to think only IFB do this.  I think Methodists, Nazarenes, Pentecostals, SBC, etc. all do it.

 

[Walt]

We don't have "standards." We have ONE standard. The word of God.

If the bible says do it, we do it.

If the bible says don't do it, we don't do it.

If the bible is silent on the subject, so are we.

Problem solved.

The issues arise in understanding what the Bible says.

In a general sense the Scriptures tell us we are to deny ungodliness and wordly lusts and should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. The Bible does not give us a list of what is worldly or ungodly, and people differ over this; some things are widely considered to be worldly, but there are others over which people differ a great deal.

To keep with the thread in the area of music, there is a great deal said about music in the Bible, but (as has been pointed out), it doesn't specifically discuss styles.  We have the Bible saying that we are to do psalm and hymns and spiritual songs and that we are to make melody to the Lord.  Clearly, there is much disagreement as to how to apply these principles, but it is sheer ignorance to say that the Bible says nothing about music.

 

[ALAYMAN]

We had members (older folk in their fifties) come to our evening service last night who aren't *ANYTHING* near the Hyles-variety of Baptists, probably wouldn't necessarily even maintain that they are concerned with any particular denominational label, come back from a "Christian Rock Concert" (their words) at Kings Island yesterday.  They were extremely put out with the lead singer of MercyMe, describing many of the things he said in between songs as arrogant and rude.  I don't necessarily lay this as some unique trait at the feet of contemporary music, but it seems to me that the notion of trying to make music by touring lends itself to the idea of commercializing Christianity and as a result there will be many folk who are in it for the money more than spreading the faith.  That's possibly true of all so-called Christian genres where fame and fortune come with the territory of competing for listners and contracts.

And to stay on topic, I think David Cloud is a crusty curmudgeon.

 

[subllibrm]

Anything DOES go... as long as there is no Scriptural violation.

That makes no sense.

So what constitutes a Scriptural violation?

"All things are lawful for me ..." - some dude named Paul

 

[subllibrm]

We had members (older folk in their fifties) come to our evening service last night who aren't *ANYTHING* near the Hyles-variety of Baptists, probably wouldn't necessarily even maintain that they are concerned with any particular denominational label, come back from a "Christian Rock Concert" (their words) at Kings Island yesterday.  They were extremely put out with the lead singer of MercyMe, describing many of the things he said in between songs as arrogant and rude.  I don't necessarily lay this as some unique trait at the feet of contemporary music, but it seems to me that the notion of trying to make music by touring lends itself to the idea of commercializing Christianity and as a result there will be many folk who are in it for the money more than spreading the faith.  That's possibly true of all so-called Christian genres where fame and fortune come with the territory of competing for listners and contracts.

And to stay on topic, I think David Cloud is a crusty curmudgeon.

Could you share some of the comments made by Bart Millard that concerned these folks?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Could you share some of the comments made by Bart Millard that concerned these folks?

They said that Millard talked about how they'd play a gig and fail to sing somebody's favorite song and then after the concert they'd hear from them about how the fan was disappointed that they didn't play such-and-such song, to which he said "we really don't care" or something to that effect.

I don't remember the other things they claimed, but they were similar stories.  The essence of their gripe was that he may have been trying to using sarcasm for humor, but it fail flat with the audience.  They didn't take what was said as humor as much as smugness though.

 

[subllibrm]

Could you share some of the comments made by Bart Millard that concerned these folks?

They said that Millard talked about how they'd play a gig and fail to sing somebody's favorite song and then after the concert they'd hear from them about how the fan was disappointed that they didn't play such-and-such song, to which he said "we really don't care" or something to that effect.

I don't remember the other things they claimed, but they were similar stories.  The essence of their gripe was that he may have been trying to using sarcasm for humor, but it fail flat with the audience.  They didn't take what was said as humor as much as smugness though.

Well "you can't please everyone" will likely not appease those who are not pleased.

Sadly, I hear this attitude from too many Christians. Even those directly "in" the ministry. While it is true on it's face that you can't please everyone, that does not absolve us from at least acknowledging that the displeasure was communicated. If it is important enough to them to mention then it should be important enough to me to respond with a gracious spirit

As for Bart Millard, I'm not sure why he felt it necessary to even mention it in that setting. As to the conversation after the concert he alluded to, my response would have been to apologize. Something like "I'm sorry that we weren't able to fit that into tonight's set list. We have so many songs and only so much time. We will look at adding it back into our rotation and hopefully it will be one we play next time you come out to see us." At which point I wouldn't even think to communicate it to anyone but the band and manager type folk who make those decisions.

There, now that we have the "ideal" out of the way, maybe he was having a bad day like you and I have on occasion.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

We don't have "standards." We have ONE standard. The word of God.

If the bible says do it, we do it.

If the bible says don't do it, we don't do it.

If the bible is silent on the subject, so are we.

Problem solved.

The issues arise in understanding what the Bible says.

In a general sense the Scriptures tell us we are to deny ungodliness and wordly lusts and should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. The Bible does not give us a list of what is worldly or ungodly, and people differ over this; some things are widely considered to be worldly, but there are others over which people differ a great deal.

To keep with the thread in the area of music, there is a great deal said about music in the Bible, but (as has been pointed out), it doesn't specifically discuss styles.  We have the Bible saying that we are to do psalm and hymns and spiritual songs and that we are to make melody to the Lord.  Clearly, there is much disagreement as to how to apply these principles, but it is sheer ignorance to say that the Bible says nothing about music.

That's it right there.

A logical process of thought for a second. Does worldliness exist? Yes. Is worldliness wrong? Yes, literally because the scriptures say it is. Where does or can worldliness exist? Well, generally speaking, in every area of the Christian life, including music.

Ok, now that (I assume) we're all on the same page, define worldliness. It's disingenuous to say that it is not definable, if that truly were the case then God has given us an instruction we cannot follow because we cannot define it.

This is literally the core of the argument and the battleground over this and other similar topics.

 

[Jrock]

I just read this on his FB fan page:

Missionary David Cloud has heart attack! PLEASE PRAY!

June 30, 2018

Bro. Cloud is currently in CCU having suffered a heart attack. Below is a note received Friday evening (EST) from his wife, Linda. Additional information will be shared as it is received. Please do not email Bro. Cloud or this list (FBIS) at this time. Please do pray!.
______________

Just over 24 hours ago David suffered a pretty major heart attack. I took him into the emergency room around 2:30am where it was confirmed that he'd had a heart attack. The doctors took him in for an angioplasty but as his blood pressure had spiked so much, they had to wait to bring that down before proceeding.

Into the procedure they discovered that the main artery on the right side of the heart was completely blocked. At that discovery the doctor stuck his head out of the door and asked me to pray (though he is a HIndu). The Lord blessed and they were able to open the artery and place a stint in. It was wonderful to watch the monitor and see the blood flowing again to that side of his heart!

He is in CCU now and seems to be doing well, though the doctor says he will still be considered as serious until 72 hours after the procedure. So we do covet the prayers of God's people, and sincerely thank those who have been praying.

Thank you so much.

In Him,
Linda Cloud