Dispensational Discussion

christundivided said:
RAIDER said:
Is it spamming because I don't want to respond to your every whim?  You have had a few good points that have caused me to think, but most of the time you are nitpicking with a horrible attitude.  If I start answering your posts I will soon be calling you names like "loudmouth, jerk, and idiot".  I'm sure they are common words you have been called on the FFF.  I choose not to do so. 

Nitpicking? Really? Are you really saying I'm just being "nitpicky"? I will say that is a common argument that comes from silly little baptist preachers that can't defend anything they say.

Have you heard the term "little foxes".... or a "little leaven"....??

I haven't called you a loud mouth, jerk or idiot. Not once. I have said such beliefs are moronic. If that hurts your feelings then so be it. I can't help but believe you're just one of those people that can't defend anything they say. Thus... you really don't have much to say about it at all.

Keep on spamming. At least everyone now knows where you're getting this crap from. You've really found an "impeccable" source. If only Billy Sunday was around to see it....

Once again you read a post and somehow twisted it around.  I did not say that you called my a "loudmouth, jerk, or idiot".  I said that responding to your caustic posts would end up causing me to call you a "loudmouth, jerk, or idiot".  My feelings are not hurt.  Where did you get that idea?

I'm not on this thread to defend the excerpts that I am posting.  I don't agree with everything fully.  I put in on here for calm discussion (which, as pointed out by other posters, obviously you don't know how to do). 

I'll post it one more time for you.  I am currently NOT a dispensationalist.  I have been doing some reading about it recently.  Some of it makes great sense.  I started this thread to get feedback pro and con in a civil manner.  I do not know the author from whom I am posting.  Obviously you have had a bad experience in your life with someone who is a KJV believer or someone who is a bit "old fashion".  My guess is that you have had issues with a lot of people in your life.  Once again - lighten up!
 
RAIDER said:
christundivided said:
RAIDER said:
Is it spamming because I don't want to respond to your every whim?  You have had a few good points that have caused me to think, but most of the time you are nitpicking with a horrible attitude.  If I start answering your posts I will soon be calling you names like "loudmouth, jerk, and idiot".  I'm sure they are common words you have been called on the FFF.  I choose not to do so. 

Nitpicking? Really? Are you really saying I'm just being "nitpicky"? I will say that is a common argument that comes from silly little baptist preachers that can't defend anything they say.

Have you heard the term "little foxes".... or a "little leaven"....??

I haven't called you a loud mouth, jerk or idiot. Not once. I have said such beliefs are moronic. If that hurts your feelings then so be it. I can't help but believe you're just one of those people that can't defend anything they say. Thus... you really don't have much to say about it at all.

Keep on spamming. At least everyone now knows where you're getting this crap from. You've really found an "impeccable" source. If only Billy Sunday was around to see it....

Once again you read a post and somehow twisted it around.  I did not say that you called my a "loudmouth, jerk, or idiot".  I said that responding to your caustic posts would end up causing me to call you a "loudmouth, jerk, or idiot".  My feelings are not hurt.  Where did you get that idea?

I was getting this "feeling" that you were actually saying you'd have to respond "in like manner". What exactly is "caustic" about my posts? I do enjoy sarcasm but I'm not "bitter" at all.

I'm not on this thread to defend the excerpts that I am posting.  I don't agree with everything fully.  I put in on here for calm discussion (which, as pointed out by other posters, obviously you don't know how to do). 

Sure I do. However, I don't take kindly to nonsense at all. I tend to be critical of nonsense. Sorry. I'm not going to say.....

"You know. That not quite right. I know you're a good person and all.... and you really care about the truth... and you've been such a good Christian all your life.....You're just making a small mistake. We all know God will let you know if you're wrong. I'll just wait till that happens before I say anything critical about what you wrote".....

Sorry. That's not me.

I'll post it one more time for you.  I am currently NOT a dispensationalist.

Sorry. Don't believe it. If it walks like a duck. Quacks like a duck... and smells like a duck... Them I'm not going to believe you're something else.

If you're not a dispensationalist.... Then what are you?

I have been doing some reading about it recently.  Some of it makes great sense.  I started this thread to get feedback pro and con in a civil manner.  I do not know the author from whom I am posting.  Obviously you have had a bad experience in your life with someone who is a KJV believer or someone who is a bit "old fashion".  My guess is that you have had issues with a lot of people in your life.  Once again - lighten up!

I'm allergic to lies. They get under my skin. I've tried several different remedies. You know... the "I don't care" remedy worked for a while. It might have even lasted the longest. I tired the "do something else".... it worked for a while. I even tried the "get banned" remedy a few places in my life...... I always seem to get over it and start caring about the truth again. I can't seem to find a remedy for it. I'm starting to believe it just a part of me I'll have to live with. Pray for me. Show a brother you care.... would you?


 
Concerning Excerpt #9:

Tribulation is not punishment.
It is trial.
Wrath is punishment.
God will seal 144,000 virgin Israelite men for propogation of this Covenant. 
The millennial Officers will be of the Elect, race notwithstanding.

The Tribulation period will be the time when the whole world, led by Israel with it's false messiah, will turn against the Saints.

Rev 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Many will be martyred at this time:

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Anishinaabe

 
Since IThes 4 gives no timetable as a reference, it cannot be quoted to support a timetable, such as PreTrib.

Anishinaabe

 
Job had a personal relationship, not a national one, with God.
Job wasn't an Israelite.

Job 14:12-15
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Job 19:23-28
23 Oh that my words were now written!
oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead
in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
and mine eyes shall behold,
and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Anishinaabe
 
Excerpt #10


The Tribulation Period

Sometime after the rapture, possibly immediately or maybe years later, the Tribulation Period will began. In Jer. 30:6 this period is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" because God is going to judge Israel as a nation by allowing Satan to "trouble" them (through the Antichrist) for rejecting Jesus Christ as their Messiah. Though Satan will have his own reasons for punishing the Jews, God will allow him to do it because they said concerning Christ "crucify him, crucify him" (John 19:6) and "his blood be on us and on our CHILDREN" (Matt. 27:25). God simply gives them their request. This is the time period Christ was referring to when He said, "...for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21). It will be disaster and sorrow on such a scale that the strongest men will hide in caves and beg for death (Rev. 6:15-16).

When Christ said, "I am come in my father's name, and ye receive me not, if another will come in his own name him ye will receive" (John 5:44), He was speaking of the coming Antichrist (also called "the Beast," "the man of sin," the "abomination of desolation," etc.). This evil character is second only to Christ as to the amount of information the Bible gives him. Daniel tells us he will make a covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:27) for "seven weeks" (years) and then break it in the middle (at 42 months). Many Jews will think him to be their Messiah until he breaks the covenant and demands to be worshipped as the God of Heaven (2 Thes. 2:4). When the Jews refuse, the Beast (now Satan incarnate) will persecute them with a fierce vengeance. He will slaughter millions of them (and also Gentiles who refuse to worship his image or take his mark—666, Rev. 13), but 144,000 will be sealed by God and protected from harm.

Finally, after no more than seven years from the signing of the covenant, Jesus Christ will return and destroy the Beast and his armies at Armageddon. The few Jews that are left will then "look upon him whom they pierced" and receive Christ as their true Messiah and King. At that moment God will save them as a nation (Rom. 11:26). They will, after 20 centuries, have finally accepted Christ for WHO He really is—"God manifest in the flesh." Though the Tribulation will severely punish them, almost to extinction, God was forced to allow it to get them to receive the truth. Being "stiff-necked" (Acts 7:51) they would not accept it under any other means. Once they repent and receive Jesus Christ, they are then ready to receive the kingdom promised to their fathers Abraham and David.

Dispensationally, the Tribulation period is basically the Dispensation of the Law with a few added features. Since the Church will have left in the rapture, the parenthetical Dispensation of Grace will be gone along with the doctrines unique to it. Thus the nation of Israel will again be the main object of God's concern. There will be a temple in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be offered, and salvation will again have a Jewish ring to it. More on this in the following chapters. 
 
Why return to the law if it has been fulfilled???  That seems silly.
 
Timotheos said:
Why return to the law if it has been fulfilled???  That seems silly.

We definitely know that the Jews will be offering sacrifices during the Tribulation.  Not sure why God chose this to be so.
 
RAIDER said:
Timotheos said:
Why return to the law if it has been fulfilled???  That seems silly.

We definitely know that the Jews will be offering sacrifices during the Tribulation.  Not sure why God chose this to be so.

Pray tell....... share with everyone the evidence that Jews will be offering sacrifices during the Tribulation........

By the way... just because they ARE offering "sacrifices".... doesn't mean they should be or need be. You really should get out more often. I hope you do realize that Jews offered up sacrifices until the Temple was destroyed. Well after the death of the apostles.... Does this mean your poor little "dispensation" gets all messed up??? It really is pitiful how you threat the truth of the Gospel.
 
christundivided said:
RAIDER said:
Timotheos said:
Why return to the law if it has been fulfilled???  That seems silly.

We definitely know that the Jews will be offering sacrifices during the Tribulation.  Not sure why God chose this to be so.

Pray tell....... share with everyone the evidence that Jews will be offering sacrifices during the Tribulation........

By the way... just because they ARE offering "sacrifices".... doesn't mean they should be or need be. You really should get out more often. I hope you do realize that Jews offered up sacrifices until the Temple was destroyed. Well after the death of the apostles.... Does this mean your poor little "dispensation" gets all messed up??? It really is pitiful how you threat the truth of the Gospel.

Does the Antichrist not stop the daily sacrifices during the Tribulation?

BTW, when someone calls you out on your stinkin, caustic attitude you act as if you don't know what they could possibly be talking about.  I have highlighted examples in your previous post.  Maybe this will help you identify the times you are a jerk.
 
RAIDER said:
christundivided said:
RAIDER said:
Timotheos said:
Why return to the law if it has been fulfilled???  That seems silly.

We definitely know that the Jews will be offering sacrifices during the Tribulation.  Not sure why God chose this to be so.

Pray tell....... share with everyone the evidence that Jews will be offering sacrifices during the Tribulation........

By the way... just because they ARE offering "sacrifices".... doesn't mean they should be or need be. You really should get out more often. I hope you do realize that Jews offered up sacrifices until the Temple was destroyed. Well after the death of the apostles.... Does this mean your poor little "dispensation" gets all messed up??? It really is pitiful how you threat the truth of the Gospel.

Does the Antichrist not stop the daily sacrifices during the Tribulation?

BTW, when someone calls you out on your stinkin, caustic attitude you act as if you don't know what they could possibly be talking about.  I have highlighted examples in your previous post.  Maybe this will help you identify the times you are a jerk.

Do you know just where in the Bible you're getting your information from... or are going by second hand information?

As to being a jerk.... you really shouldn't feel so fondly about such beliefs. It'll stop you from getting so offended when someone rightfully criticizes them.
 
Excerpt #11


The Palestinian Covenant, The New Covenant, and The Messianic Dispensation

1400 years before Christ, at the end of their 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, God made another covenant with Israel besides the one He made at Mt. Sinai. Called the Palestinian Covenant because they were about to enter the land of Palestine, the covenant contains a promise of what God will do for them when they repent of their sins and return to Him after a period of rebellion. God promised after He dispersed them among the nations as punishment for future disobedience (ultimately the rejection of Christ), He would regather and return them to their land after they repent. This covenant is closely linked with the Mosaic Covenant, and some say the two are joined together at the beginning of the Millennium. It is found in Deut. 30:1-10 and its specific elements are:

1. Israel's dispersion for disobedience (vs. 1). Though Israel is a nation today, more Jews live in New York City than in the land of Palestine. The bulk of the Jews on earth are still scattered and those in Israel do not possess all the land promised to them.
2. Their (foreknown) repentance while dispersed (vs. 2). This is during the Tribulation.
3. The return of the Lord (vs. 3). Christ will personally regather them after the Tribulation.
4. The restoration of all their land (vs. 5). Christ will give them the entire land grant promised to Abraham.
5. Their national conversion (vs. 6). All Israel will be saved (nationally) in a day (Rom. 11:26).
6. The judgment of their enemies and oppressors (vs. 7). The judgment of the nations (Matt. 25).
7. Their national blessing and prosperity (vs. 9).

This covenant comes into effect at the end of the Tribulation period when the remaining Jews see the return of the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as their Messiah. They will nationally repent and mourn for their sin of rejecting Him and admit before all their acceptance of Him as King. God will then, in Christ, forgive them and bless them as He desired to bless them from their beginning. He will give them all the land promised to their fathers and reign over them Himself from Jerusalem. Christ will judge their enemies at the Judgment of Nations (Matt. 25:31-46) and place the other nations under them in privilege and importance. Israel will be the premier nation on earth, and that purely by the promise and good pleasure of God. This covenant lasts, at least, until the end of the Millennium.

The New Covenant is called "new" because unlike the previous covenants it has not yet been made. It was promised in Jer. 31:31-37 and confirmed again in Heb. 8:7-13, but it has not yet been officially given to the nation of Israel. Again, after the Jews repent and receive Christ as their Messiah, God will formally establish this unconditional covenant with them. This is the "new testament" Jesus was referring to in Matt. 26:28 when He said, "for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Thus this covenant is based on the shed blood and atoning death of Jesus Christ.

Many today insist this New Covenant doctrinally applies to the present "church age," but this is another wresting of Scripture. By letting the Scriptures speak for themselves one can easily see that the New Covenant only applies doctrinally to "the house of Israel" and "the house of Judah" (Jer. 31:31, Heb. 8:8). It has nothing to do with the born again believer or the present Dispensation of Grace. The main thrust of this "new testament" is not the Church Age, but a future covenant with Israel based on the atoning death of the Jewish "testator," Jesus Christ. Of course, the salvation Christ bought with His blood is available to all today, Jew or Gentile, but as found in Jeremiah and Hebrews the New Covenant will apply only to Israel. The specifics of this covenant are (as found in Jeremiah 31):

1. God will put His laws in each individual's heart (vs. 33).
2. God will again be their God and Israel His people (vs. 33).
3. There will no longer be any preaching or witnessing because all Jews will know the Lord (vs. 34).
4. God will completely forgive them and remember their sin no more (vs. 34).
5. It is as permanent as day and night, the moon and stars, the waves of the sea, and the unmeasurable vastness of the earth and heavens (vs. 35-37).

This covenant is in effect from the beginning of the Millennium through to the gate of eternity.

The Messianic Dispensation (the Millennium), along with the New Covenant, will begin when the Palestinian Covenant is fulfilled at the end of the Tribulation. This dispensation is the "golden age" and "utopia" man today dreams about. It will be characterized by a perfect, righteous, and holy Ruler, universal righteousness, world peace, greatly reduced sickness and death, extended life span, gentleness and compatibility of wildlife, more cooperative earth for crops, perfect climate and environment, no random natural disasters, most of the curses lifted, little or no crime, and the binding of man's constant enemy, Satan. In the Millennium man will have everything he says today he wants, but will he fare any better in this dispensation than in the others? Hardly.

There are scores of passages in the Old Testament concerning this blessed period, and in the New Testament it is called the "kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 3:2, 5:3). The kingdom of heaven truly was "at hand" when Christ began His earthly ministry, but when the Jews rejected the King it was postponed until they were willing to receive Him. The "sermon on the mount" (Matt. ch. 5-7) will essentially be the Constitution of this kingdom and lay down the rules and principles of behavior required in it. During this 1000 year period, Christ will rule with a "rod of iron" and compel everyone to obey these principles and His will. Those who don't will be punished (Zech. 14:16-19).

With Satan bound in the bottomless pit and no longer able to influence nations or individuals for evil (Rev. 20:2), man will not be able to blame him for their sins. God will remove every form of outside negative influence during the Millennium, thus giving man every opportunity to do right. But even in this much sought after environment man will ultimately fail. It appears that during this period the people will begin to get tired of compelled obedience and of the righteous King in Jerusalem and rebel against Christ in their heart (Jer. 17:9). At the end of the 1000 years, God will release Satan from prison and give him access to the nations one last time. Very quickly Satan will organize a revolt against Christ and form a huge army to oust Him from Jerusalem. He will likely use pride to convince man he can do a better job "governing himself" (remember the Dispensation of Human Government?). The entire revolt is devoured by fire from Heaven and Satan's usefulness to God is over (Rev. 20:9).

It has taken God seven dispensations to do it, but He has proved his point. The problem with man is not his circumstances or misfortune, neither is it his environment or upbringing, man's number one problem is HIMSELF. Man by nature is evil, and no matter what kind of world or environment he is placed in he will remain evil. The only remedy is God must give him a new heart (2 Cor. 5:17).

During this time those who make up the body of Christ and have gone up in the rapture will reign with Christ from Jerusalem. They may act as His ambassadors to the nations enforcing His righteousness all over the earth. Nevertheless, each born again believer's old sinful nature will be literally and forever dead, leaving him with no capacity for sin. He will also have a supernatural, glorified body like Christ's (Phil. 3:21). Therefore, he cannot rebel with the world against Christ, he has already went through his testing period. The Jews and Gentiles that enter into the Millennium from the Tribulation, however, will still have only their natural bodies and the same old sinful Adamic nature all sinners are born with.
 
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