Do you dress up for church?

[christundivided]

You go ahead and keep dressing like Bill Clinton and pretending Monica isn't waiting for you in the back room.

That was uncalled for and worthy of rebuke. Shame on you! 

The ignore feature can be your friend...til someone quotes them...

You're not ignoring anyone. Both of you selectively quoted what I wrote. Why not deal with the rest of it?

 

[subllibrm]

I don't purport to speak for the dress up crowd, I'm not necessarily one of them.
But, they didn't start this thread.
And I don't believe they (as a group) claim any moral superiority over the casual crowd.
I don't care what you wear, what Alayman or castor wears.
OR what order of service/worship they use in church.
It doesn't make them greater saints or sinners.

Would you agree that the same can't be said of everyone here?

I will concede that there are agendas being played out and pot stirrers enjoying themselves.  ;D

 

[christundivided]

I don't purport to speak for the dress up crowd, I'm not necessarily one of them.
But, they didn't start this thread.
And I don't believe they (as a group) claim any moral superiority over the casual crowd.
I don't care what you wear, what Alayman or castor wears.
OR what order of service/worship they use in church.
It doesn't make them greater saints or sinners.

Would you agree that the same can't be said of everyone here?

I will concede that there are agendas being played out and pot stirrers enjoying themselves.  ;D

OBVIOUSLY.... TB prefers one over the other. He hasn't given any example of someone dressing down and coming to his church. He has given an example of a 90 year old man still dressing in "gay apparel". His motives are clear.

 

[Castor Muscular]

And I don't believe they (as a group) claim any moral superiority over the casual crowd.

It is implicit in claiming that dressing up shows reverence for God.  The implication is that dressing down shows irreverence for God. 

I don't care what you wear, what Alayman or castor wears.
OR what order of service/worship they use in church.
It doesn't make them greater saints or sinners.

Would you agree that the same can't be said of everyone here?

I don't care what anyone wears, either. 

Dressing up OR dressing down for the wrong reason could have a detrimental affect on you and others, spiritually speaking.  So there it can matter, although that really wan't the point of this thread. 

Regardless, I think dressing up because you like to dress up and look good is the most rational and benign reason of all.   

Dressing up for "church" out of reverence for God is probably the least rational.  It demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of what it means to be a church and a member of the body. 

 

[PappaBear]

You are in the presence of the Lord 24/7, and have access to God all that time.  There's nothing special about the church building.  God doesn't live there and wait for you to show up and see what you wear for 3 hours.  Aren't you inclined to show respect to the Lord the other 165 hours of the week? 

I'm not trying to be a smart-butt or mean -- just trying to get the point across that we have a mistaken idea of what "church" is.

Do you think in the OT that God was restricted to only the Temple?  Yet the LORD Himself approved David's desire to "build Him an house."  The LORD was with the OT people 24/7 also, and they had access to God, Who is a Spirit, all the time.  But that did not excuse any disrespect or desecration of either the Tabernacle or the Temple, and those locations were accorded special respect.  When the Temple fell into disrepair, it was a sign of the spiritual lethargy of the people.  So much so that they had even forsaken the word of God, which was found while renovating the Temple in Josiah's day.

There is a similar basis in the NT in Paul's instruction to young Timothy.  In the Pastoral Epistles, Paul gives a lot of practical instruction about how local churches should operate.  This is why new pastors and church planters are often encouraged to teach through the Pastoral Epistles and explain the set up.  In his first epistle to Timothy, Paul said,

1Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I understand what you are saying about church buildings, because as Jesus said in John 4, we must worship the LORD in Spirit and truth.  Even so, the Bible acknowledges that there is a certain decorum with which we should conduct ourselves in these buildings which are dedicated to the worship of the LORD.  To misbehave in the place of worship is to exhibit disrespect for the worship itself, giving it a poor priority. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

You are in the presence of the Lord 24/7, and have access to God all that time.  There's nothing special about the church building.  God doesn't live there and wait for you to show up and see what you wear for 3 hours.  Aren't you inclined to show respect to the Lord the other 165 hours of the week? 

I'm not trying to be a smart-butt or mean -- just trying to get the point across that we have a mistaken idea of what "church" is.

Do you think in the OT that God was restricted to only the Temple?  Yet the LORD Himself approved David's desire to "build Him an house."  The LORD was with the OT people 24/7 also, and they had access to God, Who is a Spirit, all the time.  But that did not excuse any disrespect or desecration of either the Tabernacle or the Temple, and those locations were accorded special respect.  When the Temple fell into disrepair, it was a sign of the spiritual lethargy of the people.  So much so that they had even forsaken the word of God, which was found while renovating the Temple in Josiah's day.

There is a similar basis in the NT in Paul's instruction to young Timothy.  In the Pastoral Epistles, Paul gives a lot of practical instruction about how local churches should operate.  This is why new pastors and church planters are often encouraged to teach through the Pastoral Epistles and explain the set up.  In his first epistle to Timothy, Paul said,

1Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I understand what you are saying about church buildings, because as Jesus said in John 4, we must worship the LORD in Spirit and truth.  Even so, the Bible acknowledges that there is a certain decorum with which we should conduct ourselves in these buildings which are dedicated to the worship of the LORD.  To misbehave in the place of worship is to exhibit disrespect for the worship itself, giving it a poor priority.

The whole concept of temple worship ended with Christ.  We, the body of Christ, are now his temple.  The word translated "church" is ecclesia, which is the "called out" people of God, not a building. 

 

[rsc2a]

You are in the presence of the Lord 24/7, and have access to God all that time.  There's nothing special about the church building.  God doesn't live there and wait for you to show up and see what you wear for 3 hours.  Aren't you inclined to show respect to the Lord the other 165 hours of the week? 

I'm not trying to be a smart-butt or mean -- just trying to get the point across that we have a mistaken idea of what "church" is.

Do you think in the OT that God was restricted to only the Temple?  Yet the LORD Himself approved David's desire to "build Him an house."  The LORD was with the OT people 24/7 also, and they had access to God, Who is a Spirit, all the time.  But that did not excuse any disrespect or desecration of either the Tabernacle or the Temple, and those locations were accorded special respect.  When the Temple fell into disrepair, it was a sign of the spiritual lethargy of the people.  So much so that they had even forsaken the word of God, which was found while renovating the Temple in Josiah's day.

The visible manifestation of the Glory of God has fallen on your pulpit?

[quote author=PappaBear]There is a similar basis in the NT in Paul's instruction to young Timothy.  In the Pastoral Epistles, Paul gives a lot of practical instruction about how local churches should operate.  This is why new pastors and church planters are often encouraged to teach through the Pastoral Epistles and explain the set up.  In his first epistle to Timothy, Paul said,

1Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I understand what you are saying about church buildings, because as Jesus said in John 4, we must worship the LORD in Spirit and truth.  Even so, the Bible acknowledges that there is a certain decorum with which we should conduct ourselves in these buildings which are dedicated to the worship of the LORD.  To misbehave in the place of worship is to exhibit disrespect for the worship itself, giving it a poor priority. [/quote]

The house of God is a people, not a place.

 

[PappaBear]

Do you still worship Christmas (mass of Christ)?  Are you still bowing to the Baal Tree every 25th of December?  If so, and SC's book has that kind of affect on you, then you should look up the origins of Christmas and our traditions in just about any encyclopedia.  Don't bother thanking me, just send me a little gift or something around December as a memorial to all that money I am saving you where you always got all those gift wrapped packages before.

Worship Christmas?  I don't get that.

Personally, I hate the whole Christmas season.  Every year, I just do my best to survive it. 

How about you?

Well, since you are busy re-examining everything about church worship, now you have a good reason to use the same policy to vent your hatred of the Christmas season.  I was asked that same question, "Do you still worship Christmas," years ago by a group of Christians who were acidly against celebrating that holiday whatsoever.  Christmas having long been my "warm fuzzy" tradition, I was comfortable with my interpretations that Jer. 10 did NOT refer to the Christmas Tree and if angels could announce the birth of the Saviour, so could I!  But then I was challenged by one to "just read where the Christmas traditions come from some time, will ya?"  I promised, and so some time later I did read.  One winter when a storm kept me inside with little else to do, I fulfilled that promise and read first one set of secular encyclopedias, and then several others (I was alone inside our small Christian School).  Just like what you seem to be proclaiming about our traditional worship services of today, I discovered that a lot of our traditions surrounding the celebration of the Christmas holiday were based upon and a continuation of pagan practices that had been "Christianized."  If I employed the same attitude that you seem to be about church, I would have swung over to the anti-Christmas crowd, too.  Except I didn't.  Because I don't use your same reasoning.  I was just wondering if you were consistent.  Because with your response to church worship, you will really become an anti-Christmas crusader if you research all the pagan practices that go into that "heathen holiday," as they called it.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Do you still worship Christmas (mass of Christ)?  Are you still bowing to the Baal Tree every 25th of December?  If so, and SC's book has that kind of affect on you, then you should look up the origins of Christmas and our traditions in just about any encyclopedia.  Don't bother thanking me, just send me a little gift or something around December as a memorial to all that money I am saving you where you always got all those gift wrapped packages before.

Worship Christmas?  I don't get that.

Personally, I hate the whole Christmas season.  Every year, I just do my best to survive it. 

How about you?

Well, since you are busy re-examining everything about church worship, now you have a good reason to use the same policy to vent your hatred of the Christmas season.  I was asked that same question, "Do you still worship Christmas," years ago by a group of Christians who were acidly against celebrating that holiday whatsoever.  Christmas having long been my "warm fuzzy" tradition, I was comfortable with my interpretations that Jer. 10 did NOT refer to the Christmas Tree and if angels could announce the birth of the Saviour, so could I!  But then I was challenged by one to "just read where the Christmas traditions come from some time, will ya?"  I promised, and so some time later I did read.  One winter when a storm kept me inside with little else to do, I fulfilled that promise and read first one set of secular encyclopedias, and then several others (I was alone inside our small Christian School).  Just like what you seem to be proclaiming about our traditional worship services of today, I discovered that a lot of our traditions surrounding the celebration of the Christmas holiday were based upon and a continuation of pagan practices that had been "Christianized."  If I employed the same attitude that you seem to be about church, I would have swung over to the anti-Christmas crowd, too.  Except I didn't.  Because I don't use your same reasoning.  I was just wondering if you were consistent.  Because with your response to church worship, you will really become an anti-Christmas crusader if you research all the pagan practices that go into that "heathen holiday," as they called it.

I have no desire to vent about Christmas.  If I get one, I'll start another thread. 

 

[PappaBear]

We stand open and NAKED before our Lord.

Heb 4:13  Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Funny you should mention that.  It is evident that you want to again take an issue and go all the way to a certain extreme with it.  Are you aware that there are other scriptures about our being naked before the LORD?  To the Church of Laodicea, the LORD said,

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Because the eyes of the LORD are in every place and beholding all things so that we are "manifest in his sight" does NOT mean that we should seek to go naked.  One does not justify the other.

Are you challenged as far as reading comprehension?  Or did someone looking for scriptural precedent just shock your delicate sensibilities so much that you missed what I said about understanding the allegorical implications of the passages?  Regardless of what you may think, the LORD uses the picture of Joshua clothed in filthy garments in a NEGATIVE sense.  The parable of the wedding garment, if nothing else, shows the acceptance of the earthly meaning that there are times we should dress appropriately -- such as wearing wedding garments at a wedding.

Do as you wish, but I for one prefer not to stand out as less respectful or taking God's presence as a thing for granted at a house of worship.  The majority of the "come as you are" crowd is arguing for doing just that.  For them, it appears they prefer a grunge worship, if indeed they bother to go at all.

 

[Castor Muscular]

We stand open and NAKED before our Lord.

Heb 4:13  Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Funny you should mention that.  It is evident that you want to again take an issue and go all the way to a certain extreme with it.  Are you aware that there are other scriptures about our being naked before the LORD?  To the Church of Laodicea, the LORD said,

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Because the eyes of the LORD are in every place and beholding all things so that we are "manifest in his sight" does NOT mean that we should seek to go naked.  One does not justify the other.

Are you challenged as far as reading comprehension?  Or did someone looking for scriptural precedent just shock your delicate sensibilities so much that you missed what I said about understanding the allegorical implications of the passages?  Regardless of what you may think, the LORD uses the picture of Joshua clothed in filthy garments in a NEGATIVE sense.  The parable of the wedding garment, if nothing else, shows the acceptance of the earthly meaning that there are times we should dress appropriately -- such as wearing wedding garments at a wedding.

Do as you wish, but I for one prefer not to stand out as less respectful or taking God's presence as a thing for granted at a house of worship.  The majority of the "come as you are" crowd is arguing for doing just that.  For them, it appears they prefer a grunge worship, if indeed they bother to go at all.

LOL at you doing word searches and trying desperately to make every "hit" relevant to the discussion. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Castor Muscular]LOL at you doing word searches and trying desperately to make every "hit" relevant to the discussion. [/quote]

Word search fallacy: Assuming that because a word is used in two different places, it must mean the same thing in both places OR assuming that the absence of a word is the absence of the concept the word conveys

 

[PappaBear]

The whole concept of temple worship ended with Christ.  We, the body of Christ, are now his temple.  The word translated "church" is ecclesia, which is the "called out" people of God, not a building.

We will have to disagree on this as on many other things.  My perception of your error is that the whole concept of temple worship NEVER had a beginning.  The martyr Stephen referred to this in:

Acts 7:
47  But Solomon built him an house.
48  Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49  Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50  Hath not my hand made all these things?

Please recall that the Temple was still in operation when he spoke this.  The Apostle Paul, who was there that day and heard Stephen's sermon before they stoned him, echoed that same sentiment later in his sermon from Mars Hill:

Acts 17:
23  For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24  God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25  Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

In Solomon's letter to the king of Tyre requesting help to build the first Temple, he acknowledged that it did not restrict the presence of God.  It was then just like churches are for us today.  Simply a place to worship, as evidenced in their case by his acknowledgment that it is merely a place to offer sacrifices.

2Chron 2:
5  And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.
6  But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

In his prayer of dedication at this Temple, Solomon again recognized this same truth.

2Chron 6:18  But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Finally, Isaiah, who prophesied in days when the Temple was in full operation, had this to say.

Isa 66:
1  Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2  For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

 

[PappaBear]

I have no desire to vent about Christmas.  If I get one, I'll start another thread.

I know.  That is my point.  Consistency is not your strong suit.  You have a personal issue with the house of God, so you are going to search to find every way you can to vent about that.  But when your same justifications for that can apply to other things which are not in your gun sites, you inconsistently (and disingenuously) ignore it.

 

[Castor Muscular]

You have a personal issue with the house of God

Outside the body of Christ, and each of us being a living temple, there is no such thing as the house of God.  God does not live in a house or a church building. 

 

[PappaBear]

God does not live in a house or a church building.

Never has.  And He never will.

there is no such thing as the house of God. 

Incorrect.  There certainly is such a thing as the house of God, numerously referred to in the Bible, including the NT.  And it refers to a building, not just the bodies of the saints.  And in those Bethel places along the way, we should be appropriate and give the LORD due respect. For that reason, we should render to all their dues, whether that be tribute, custom, fear, or honour.

 

[Recovering IFB]

the water was awesome today...... air temperature 70 degrees at 5 am... (a little chilly for me but i had my long sleeve wet suit top on..... my friend from the mainland loved it... )... trades winds from the north east at 9 mph gently blowing into the face of 3 foot south west swell.....  conditions were ideal and glassy... .....  we met out there before the sun came up and surfed the dawn patrol....

but sitting out there on my surfboard between sets.... i made the observation that if i wasn;t such a hypocrite... .. maybe even a closet xer, dangerously leaning toward phariseeism with pagan overtones....  ??? ...  i should be sitting out here on this surfboard wearing one of my sunday dresses.....  :-\ .....  ....

and then i thought.... but no..... i paid hard earned money for some of those dresses... and my dad bought me the rest of them.....  i;m not ruining them in the ocean for anybody.... even if it tweaks the big red nose of every come as you are, sit in a circle worship at home teamster, who thinks church in the modern age should be conducted like an alcoholics anonymous meeting.....  :..

sorry..... i guess i should have started off with a warning first that this post was going to contain extreme sarcasm.... 

hey.. does anyone know where i can apply for an xer card?.... ???.... they have got me almost convinced...  :-\

If your thinking that way, you don't need a card, you are already one

 

[christundivided]

We stand open and NAKED before our Lord.

Heb 4:13  Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Funny you should mention that.  It is evident that you want to again take an issue and go all the way to a certain extreme with it.  Are you aware that there are other scriptures about our being naked before the LORD?  To the Church of Laodicea, the LORD said,

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Because the eyes of the LORD are in every place and beholding all things so that we are "manifest in his sight" does NOT mean that we should seek to go naked.  One does not justify the other.

Are you challenged as far as reading comprehension?  Or did someone looking for scriptural precedent just shock your delicate sensibilities so much that you missed what I said about understanding the allegorical implications of the passages?  Regardless of what you may think, the LORD uses the picture of Joshua clothed in filthy garments in a NEGATIVE sense.  The parable of the wedding garment, if nothing else, shows the acceptance of the earthly meaning that there are times we should dress appropriately -- such as wearing wedding garments at a wedding.

Do as you wish, but I for one prefer not to stand out as less respectful or taking God's presence as a thing for granted at a house of worship.  The majority of the "come as you are" crowd is arguing for doing just that.  For them, it appears they prefer a grunge worship, if indeed they bother to go at all.

You remind me of something I heard my grandmother say to my brother one time..... "You'd argue with a stop sign and throw rocks at it.... if it didn't argue back".

I think its entirely laughable how you apply anything from the Scriptures. Those at Laodicea didn't have to worry about someone catching a glimpse of their rearends. Every heard of the term "metaphorical"? I can't imagine you'd every make it trying to lead anyone from the Scriptures. I can see you literally "plucking out an eye" or "cutting off a limb".

The texts I posted from James fits this discussion well. You obviously respect well dressed church members . You people make me sick. When I was younger, I used to drive a church van and go pickup families that couldn't make it to church any other way. I remember one family in particular. A very nice family. Kind. Harmless. If not a little "slow" about some things. I saw them go out of their way to try to please people in the church. They'd buy them cheap gifts (the only thing they could afford). They'd do work around the house for members of the church. I can even remember the father of the family donating a truck axle for a deer lease vehicle for the pastor to use. Yet, only a few people in the church would sincerely give them the time of day. They didn't dress like everyone else. Couldn't afford it. They didn't take a bath everyday but I never caught wind of any "smell" from them. If anyone had, it would of been me. Yet, no one cared one thing about any of them. Why? Because of people like you. Too proud. Too silly in their own success to condescend to anyone else's level.

Rom 12:16  Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

 

[christundivided]

You have a personal issue with the house of God

Outside the body of Christ, and each of us being a living temple, there is no such thing as the house of God.  God does not live in a house or a church building.

sorry about my previous post castor... .... i apologize ......  i wasn;t trying to single out your post.....  ... i agree God does not live in a specific building..(though i do believe a church building can called the house of God)...  and i believe that we are truly the temple of the Holy Spirit..........  and i know you did tell me that i had the right reason for dressing up..... i was just remarking in general to all the posts in the thread...  .....  i guess i;m just feeling upset for weird reasons today.. :-\... which reminds me......  how can anyone play golf every single day?....... and even demand that others ...who i am sure would rather still be surfing with me... should go play golf with them?....  ...... i just don;t get it......  i don;t get golf either...  surf everyday?... absolutely...but golf?....... ...... but on the bright side..... i guess most golf wear would not be unacceptable.. in even the most strict of modern churches.....  minus the cleats maybe if they had polished wood floors.....  :-\.....  and to think it;s still cool, nice and sunny with perfectly rideable waves out there....... ...  what a waste...

Do a study of Stephen's words to Israel in Acts 7. I honestly believe you will come to no other conclusion..... than God never desired a "temple" be built to Him. It was and is eternally His purpose to possess the heart of mankind. That is His pleasure, desire, and gift to Himself.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Incorrect.  There certainly is such a thing as the house of God, numerously referred to in the Bible, including the NT.  And it refers to a building, not just the bodies of the saints.  And in those Bethel places along the way, we should be appropriate and give the LORD due respect. For that reason, we should render to all their dues, whether that be tribute, custom, fear, or honour.

Your theology is built on a search engine.  And that never ends well. 

The house of God as a building ended with Christ.  This is a MAJOR doctrinal issue.  The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom as a message that we no longer access God through a temple or a high priest.  We have direct access to God through Jesus Christ, and having been made alive through his Spirit, we are now living temples of God.  We are the church.