Do you dress up for church?

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Facts are that you have yet to deal with the truth that there is a significant portion of evangelicals from a wide array of the spectrum that has believed what I have said.  Does that make it doctrinally absolute?  No, but I find it more than funny that people like rsc2a and you stand on the shoulders of giants except when it doesn't suit your whims.

Actually, you've only cited a few examples from one particular tradition which only spans a very small span of years in Christian history. CM has provided evidence where Christians (laity) across many traditions for more than 1800 years would disagree. Thus the reason I said "comes from particular cultural place".

No, he read an ignorant book that fed into his presuppositions and somehow is suddenly infallible historical fact in his mind...[/quote]

Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make them ignorant...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...a book that you have said is by and large junk, but an enemy of my enemy is my friend is in full force with you yoda.[/quote]

Actually, I've pretty much stated that I have found the author's conclusions to be generally crap. That doesn't mean I would reject the initial facts the author used to make those conclusions. And, amusingly enough, you were practically accusing me of being a huge supporter of the author not that long ago...

...but consistency in our position isn't necessary when consistency would make our arguments nonsensical or something.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

1Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

That is Paul, writing to Timothy, some 25+ years after the crucifixion and resurrection.

The disconnect is to say "house of God" = the temple.

That along with CM's point about the church being a "called out" group.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make them ignorant...

You do understand the qualitative difference between stating a claim or claims is ignorant and stating a person is ignorant as a whole unit don't you?

Actually, I've pretty much stated that I have found the author's conclusions to be generally crap.

Glad to see you admit to agreeing with me.  It really wasn't that hard now was it?  If you want to be right more often you ought to consider taking it up as a regular practice.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Glad to see you admit to agreeing with me.  It really wasn't that hard now was it?  If you want to be right more often you ought to consider taking it up as a regular practice.[/quote]

Could you be any more arrogant?

 

[Castor Muscular]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Glad to see you admit to agreeing with me.  It really wasn't that hard now was it?  If you want to be right more often you ought to consider taking it up as a regular practice.

Could you be any more arrogant?
[/quote]

With God, anything is possible.  But I doubt it. 

Besides, he has to go to a church building to be with God. 

 

[Holy Mole]

Of course. Why not get dressed up to be dressed down?

It's the FIB way!

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Glad to see you admit to agreeing with me.  It really wasn't that hard now was it?  If you want to be right more often you ought to consider taking it up as a regular practice.

Could you be any more arrogant?
[/quote]


lol, speak some more edifying words to me, hypocrite.  And when you're done maybe you can tell me if you understand the difference between stating an idea is ignorant and stating a person is ignorant.

Besides, he has to go to a church building to be with God. 

The more you repeat a lie doesn't actually increase the probability of it being true.

 

[PappaBear]

1Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

That is Paul, writing to Timothy, some 25+ years after the crucifixion and resurrection.

And, as I said before, the "church of the living God" literally means "the called out of the living God".  The Greek word is ekklhsia, which means "called out".  It's not a building.  God's home on earth is in the Body of Christ. 

I corrected you on this before.  Why do you insist on repeating the error?

Partly because I do not recognize your authority to correct God's word or me citing it.  Also because I have already stated we disagree.  That does not necessitate that you are right or that I am in error.  You appear pretty arrogant in this.

You are partially right about ekklesia.  It is a "called out ASSEMBLY."  It would not refer to the building as much as to the congregation of believers.  An ekklesia is certainly NOT an individual.  Note also that you have completely ignored the phrase "house of God."  These early congregations often met in houses.  (See Rom 16:5; 1Cor 16:19; Col 4:15; Phm 1:2;Acts 12:12; 16:40) You have further ignored the context of his instruction to "behave thyself" and that it is within the Pastoral Epistles where Paul is giving instruction for the order of the local, visible church with Bishops and Demons, I mean Deacons, the care of widows, and such like. 

You have sacrificed all rights to correct anyone having twisted what ALAYMAN, Tarheel, myself and others have all told you on this thread, that it is not to impress others or restricted to a building.  You have taken what has been told to you repeatedly to false extremes in order to build a rationalization for avoiding God's house, and your perverted pleasure of insulting others. 

An ekklesia is a congregation of people, and that congregation is the pillar and ground of the truth where we meet to worship God.  Most congregations today happen to own or control houses of God to worship in, and entering into those houses we have to interact with others there.  Where 2 or 3 are gathered, the LORD said, there He is in the midst.  Worship has never been meant to be a selfish, lonely thing. 

To attempt to outdress others in the fashion of this world would be wrong (see the dressing behavior in the house of God context in 1Tim 2:9).  Likewise, to completely ignore the presence of God in our worship, or of other Christians in this ekklesia by dressing down to cloak yourself in a false humility would be an error taking God and His people for granted and making our worship a glib and onerous thing.

And yes, I have noticed your constant denial of God.  Whenever anyone posts about their desire to honor our magnificent LORD by preparing themselves to come before Him, you completely remove God from the context and claim it is in order to impress others or for an "I'm better than you" condescension, a strict flesh view.  In this you are wrong.

 

[PappaBear]

Do you dress up for church?

I don't "Dress Up" for Church.

When I go to my wardrobe I ask the Lord, "What do You think I should wear today?"

Bro. Hyles!  You've come back!! 

 

[PappaBear]

Your association with miners is pretty limited if this is your view of miners. I am a life-long WV resident, and I deal with miners on a daily basis. There are good ones and bad ones, like every other profession.

I am more familiar with the real mountain coal miners of Wyoming, Boone, and Raleigh counties.  But all Bible students should be familiar with West Virginia coal miners and their godliness.  Like they say, WV coal miners are as "old as the hills."  After all, they are mentioned in the Bible.  A group of West Virginia coal mine farfighters came all the way to Bethlehem to bring the baby Jesus some gifts.  How do I know that, you ask?  The Bible says they came from afar.  Gotta be.
*Good to meet ya*

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Glad to see you admit to agreeing with me.  It really wasn't that hard now was it?  If you want to be right more often you ought to consider taking it up as a regular practice.

Could you be any more arrogant?
[/quote]

The irony just keeps on coming....

 

[lnf]

This has been an interesting thread with the two intertwined issues…do you wear other than your regular attire when you sit in a building built for the purpose of corporate worship or your house church…

If I have deciphered this correctly so far, there are those who believe that going to a corporate worship building is anti-scriptural, but house churches are scriptural.  And there are those who feel that worshippers are quite likely showing judgment to others by what they choose to wear when attending either a corporate worship building or a house church, whether expressed or implied.

Scripture supports meeting in corporate worship.  I think we can all agree on this point.  But this corporate worship is manifested in at least three ways…the tabernacle, which I think of as a “pre-fab” building, travelled with the wandering tribes.  And then there was the temple in Jerusalem...a permanent structure also built for the purpose of corporate worship.  And let’s not forget the “memorials” that were constructed as a remembrance.  Aren’t those also meant to invite a sort of corporate worship? 

My references are: 

Matthew 18:20:  For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Joshua 4:6-7:  That this may be a sign among you, that when your children ask their fathers in time to come, saying, What mean ye by these stones?

Then ye shall answer them, That the waters of Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant of the LORD; when it passed over Jordan, the waters of Jordan were cut off: and these stones shall be for a memorial unto the children of Israel for ever.

Yes, the “birthing” church met in private homes.  I see house churches as being similar to the tabernacle, because house churches might move from location to location...but people are still meeting for “corporate worship”.

I see the temple as being similar to our site-built churches today.  Corporate worship happens there, in that fixed location.

And I see the memorials as a worship place for “travelers”.  When I am on vacation or travelling over the weekend, if I want to participate in “corporate” worship, I’ll choose a church in the vicinity I am in.  Yes…that could be a house church, but much more likely, it will be a site-built church, especially if I am unfamiliar with the area and have no contacts there.

In my mind, all three of these sorts of places of worship are scripturally supported, which means that it boils down to a matter of preference.

I like my site-built church.  You like your home church.  When I travel, I’ll probably choose a church through a mapquest search…The point is, I go to “corporate worship” to give praise, thanks, glory and honor to God, through His son, Jesus Christ, even though I can and do these same things day by day in the privacy of my home, while I’m driving my car, etc.

Now, on to attire.  I really think this comes down to a heart/attitude issue.  When I was a child, I wore my “Sunday Best” to honor God.  Some have criticized that, saying that it is a false teaching.  That may be true, but nobody “taught” me that.  It’s what I felt in my heart at that time in my life.  My motive was pure.  Frankly, I think God smiled when He saw me making an effort to show my reverence to the occasion of worshipping Him on Sunday morning.  I didn’t dress up to please people or to make them feel “less” than me.  I didn’t know enough about “religion” to even think that way.  I wasn’t raised in a church family.  My parents didn’t attend a church.  I went to church whenever a friend invited me…

As for my current thoughts on attire, they are actually less pure in one sense and just as pure in another…I wear pants to church at least once a month.  Why?  I like pants.  I prefer pants.  Pants are comfortable.  Pants are warm.  My church is proud of their AC.  It’s cold in there.  But in all honesty, every time I choose to wear pants, I know I am tweaking the nose of someone in the congregation who ascribes to “no pants on women”.  Even as I gleefully put on that pair of pants, I know that my willingness to tweak someone’s nose gives no honor to God.

But, on the other hand, I rarely notice what others are wearing in church.  I used to require my son to wear “business casual” attire or better…no jeans, no t-shirts.  But now that he is an adult, I’m just happy when he comes to church.  I sit by him proudly, no matter what he is wearing, whenever he chooses to come.  It seems like the only time I notice attire is when I see the young girls with super-short skirts or low-cut blouses.  And it’s not so much that they came to church dressed like that, but that they dress like that at all.  I’m happy they came to church, but it grieves me that they think “showing their business” is appropriate in any situation.

I’ll extrapolate that thought in this way…I know a young lady who dresses modestly at church, but posts bikini pictures of herself on facebook.  She’s got half the equation right…and the other half will come through her progressive sanctification.

We need to recognize the importance of welcoming all who come, no matter what they are wearing or how they smell, without judgment.  Let our Lord and Savior work in their lives...yes, through us, who come alongside them and help them along their path.  Progressive sanctifiction... 

 

[PappaBear]

But, on the other hand, I rarely notice what others are wearing in church.  I used to require my son to wear “business casual” attire or better…no jeans, no t-shirts.  But now that he is an adult, I’m just happy when he comes to church.  I sit by him proudly, no matter what he is wearing, whenever he chooses to come.  It seems like the only time I notice attire is when I see the young girls with super-short skirts or low-cut blouses.  And it’s not so much that they came to church dressed like that, but that they dress like that at all.  I’m happy they came to church, but it grieves me that they think “showing their business” is appropriate in any situation.

Well reasoned, and well said.  Thank you & blessings.  'Bout sums it up, nicely.

 

[Castor Muscular]

But, on the other hand, I rarely notice what others are wearing in church. 

It's not for you to notice.  It's out of reverence for God.  God notices.  In fact, this conversation took place just the other day:

God:  "Hey, Moses.  Check it out.  Look at that suit Castor is wearing.  Helllooooo.... the 80's called and want their suit back.  I get NO reverence from that.  None at all."

Moses:  "Bwahahahaha, yeah.  But look down there.  TB is looking spiffy today."

God:  "Look behind him.  His shirt tail is hanging out under his suit jacket.  Apparently he didn't notice that.  That's going to cost him points."

Moses:  "Oh, yeah, I see that.  That's too bad.  I had $20 on him getting to the Easter reverence semi-finals.  Wait... OH MY YOU!!!  Did you see ALAYMAN over there?  He's wearing a TUX!  A TUX!!  The reverence is blinding!  Blinding, I tell you!"

God:  "Yeah, it's going to be hard to beat that this Sunday.  He's going to the finals.  I know it.  But then I know everything." 

Moses:  "Well, I can't handle the blinding light anymore.  I'm going to go ask Elijah to teach me how to do a double-knot tie again.  I can't seem to get that quite right."

God:  "Good luck, I'm depending on you.  You know what really counts."

 

[Biker]

And, if someone can show me, in the canon of scripture, a prescribed order of worship, I'd be interested....

Rsc2a  posted this already but no one responded to it. And his second post of "Not to draw attention to ones self" which is essentially the true definition of biblical modesty.

1 Tim I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes

^^It was the women doing the sinning in church, hence the warning

Reiterated by our Lord again in Luke

After John’s messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet.

Our Lord is contrasting these dress attires for a reason. A man wearing fine clothing/expensive clothing is linked to those who "live in Palaces" and "indulge in luxury" versus a Prophet who does not. Off the cuff, I think for Men we'd all agree that Tuxedos and Suits would apply. In our area, only the Cults dress this way. At least their leaders do. Suits and Ties. We have no XDumb here, nor King James Version Only churches or I am sure they, being a Cult, would probably follow suit.

I am sure motivations count, those who didn't know better...There is also scripture somewhere, which warns us not to be partial to those who visually, are poor & dress accordingly in church. Something to that effect...

 

[Biker]

rsc2a you certainly a solid understanding of this topic. Thanks for all the scripture 

 

[Biker]

The question is for both "clergy" and peons, er, the laity. 

Do you know, without looking it up or googling it, at what point in history people started dressing up for church, and why?

22 pages so far. In less than 2 days. Who'd have thought...!

 

[lnf]

But, on the other hand, I rarely notice what others are wearing in church. 

It's not for you to notice.  It's out of reverence for God.  God notices.  In fact, this conversation took place just the other day:

God:  "Hey, Moses.  Check it out.  Look at that suit Castor is wearing.  Helllooooo.... the 80's called and want their suit back.  I get NO reverence from that.  None at all."

Moses:  "Bwahahahaha, yeah.  But look down there.  TB is looking spiffy today."

God:  "Look behind him.  His shirt tail is hanging out under his suit jacket.  Apparently he didn't notice that.  That's going to cost him points."

Moses:  "Oh, yeah, I see that.  That's too bad.  I had $20 on him getting to the Easter reverence semi-finals.  Wait... OH MY YOU!!!  Did you see ALAYMAN over there?  He's wearing a TUX!  A TUX!!  The reverence is blinding!  Blinding, I tell you!"

God:  "Yeah, it's going to be hard to beat that this Sunday.  He's going to the finals.  I know it.  But then I know everything." 

Moses:  "Well, I can't handle the blinding light anymore.  I'm going to go ask Elijah to teach me how to do a double-knot tie again.  I can't seem to get that quite right."

God:  "Good luck, I'm depending on you.  You know what really counts."

Castor, frankly, I think you went over the top.  You didn't quote my post in context.  There was no "church" judgment in my post...only a sorrow for young girls who don't respect their own bodies.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Castor, frankly, I think you went over the top.

Of course he has.  He has done it repeatedly despite others having noted that he is intentionally misrepresenting (a form of lying) what others are saying.  He has done it in this most recent pitiful attempt at parody by equating the Biblical concept of reverence with trying to garner favor with God.  A person's convictions flow from a rightly humble heart, a heart that has received instruction from God and desires to please Him by faith.  Obedience flows as a response to repentance and faith, but Castor would have you believe that anybody with more conservative views than him is a pharisee.  That's a long-standing page from his playbook.  When you read his general tone and tenor of conversation you can see that his notion of humor is also irreverent.  He shuns public discourse, because he is an introvert, and he lets his personal peccadillos taint his theological biases.  It's the ultimate irony that such judgmentalism could cloak itself in self-professed piety, sorta like the puffed up and proud reverend Sharpton wagging his chubby little finger at all the Uncle Tom's who defend the white-Hispanic Zimmerman.

 

[christundivided]

Castor, frankly, I think you went over the top.

Of course he has.  He has done it repeatedly despite others having noted that he is intentionally misrepresenting (a form of lying) what others are saying.  He has done it in this most recent pitiful attempt at parody by equating the Biblical concept of reverence with trying to garner favor with God.  A person's convictions flow from a rightly humble heart, a heart that has received instruction from God and desires to please Him by faith.  Obedience flows as a response to repentance and faith, but Castor would have you believe that anybody with more conservative views than him is a pharisee.  That's a long-standing page from his playbook.  When you read his general tone and tenor of conversation you can see that his notion of humor is also irreverent.  He shuns public discourse, because he is an introvert, and he lets his personal peccadillos taint his theological biases.  It's the ultimate irony that such judgmentalism could cloak itself in self-professed piety, sorta like the puffed up and proud reverend Sharpton wagging his chubby little finger at all the Uncle Tom's who defend the white-Hispanic Zimmerman.

Are you advocating that those who "dress up" to go to church........ are doing so..... solely as way of being "obedient"?

I'd like to know how you draw a distinction between "seeking favor" and being "obedient" to God? Your entire argument hinges on this distinction. Please elaborate.

You analogy of Sharpton and the "Uncle Tom" seems self serving. Could it also be said.... that those who "judge" "dressing up" to go to go church as being obediant, are do nothing more than setting a standard that all should obtain?