Does God Lead Into Ministry?

Binaca Chugger

Binaca Chugger

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I have always been taught that if you want to serve in a ministry as a pastor, evangelist, missionary, teacher, etc, you should just pray and allow God to open doors.  Then I look at how most ministers find their place of service.  They talk to people who know people who make recommendations.  Basically, they find their network of like minded ministers and put their name out.  The more people you know who are better connected, the better your chances of getting employed with a more lucrative position. 

Does the method contradict the lesson of allowing God to place you?  Is it really God leading you into a ministry, or yourself pushing doors open?

If you are employed in the ministry, how did you find your current place of service?  Did someone call you out of nowhere, or did you pry open a door?
 
1Ti 3:1  This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Desire is one indicator of a call from God. However, its not the end all...be all.... in determining if said desire is carnal/self serving or from God.

While I do believe that God opens doors of ministry, its often the case that God closes doors.

Yes. I believe that the vast majority of those in ministry today should "get out". It grows clearer every day that the "ministry to the saints" has become nothing more than a "self serving" position of power and influence seeking to build a congregation of "mini-mes".
 
praise_yeshua said:
1Ti 3:1  This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Desire is one indicator of a call from God. However, its not the end all...be all.... in determining if said desire is carnal/self serving or from God.

While I do believe that God opens doors of ministry, its often the case that God closes doors.

Yes. I believe that the vast majority of those in ministry today should "get out". It grow clearer every day that the "ministry to the saints" has become nothing more than a "self serving" position of power an influence to make build a congregation of "mini-mes".
Click to expand...

Yes.  God evidently closes doors.  Agreed, many in ministry shouldn't be.  I recently had a conversation with a fellow who makes $70K/yr to deliver a message and lead in worship for one service per week - That's It.  Greed.

My question is about how the open door "Opens."  Did a call to position really just happen, or do these people make phone calls, schmooze higher-ups, put out a resume and use their connections?
 
Binaca Chugger said:
praise_yeshua said:
1Ti 3:1  This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Desire is one indicator of a call from God. However, its not the end all...be all.... in determining if said desire is carnal/self serving or from God.

While I do believe that God opens doors of ministry, its often the case that God closes doors.

Yes. I believe that the vast majority of those in ministry today should "get out". It grow clearer every day that the "ministry to the saints" has become nothing more than a "self serving" position of power an influence to make build a congregation of "mini-mes".
Click to expand...

Yes.  God evidently closes doors.  Agreed, many in ministry shouldn't be.  I recently had a conversation with a fellow who makes $70K/yr to deliver a message and lead in worship for one service per week - That's It.  Greed.
Click to expand...

I've known of men that got more for not that much effort. Even robbing their own church of wages to do other people/churches service.

My question is about how the open door "Opens."  Did a call to position really just happen, or do these people make phone calls, schmooze higher-ups, put out a resume and use their connections?
Click to expand...

I don't know the times I've heard "ministers" lying about such. They'll try to say it was undeniably "God" when they either received a call or got verbal recommendation from someone else. I've also know evangelists that had a few "got to churches" that would call a meeting here and there if they needed a "love offering" to help with their finances.

Now, there are times this isn't the case, but it happens more often than not.
 
I volunteered for 20 years. Was approached by the leadership to consider a full time position. Can't speak for anyone else.
 
I've pastored two churches. The first came to me entirely unsolicited after a series of rather strange coincidences. The second one I went looking for via the HAC placement office. In both cases I genuinely believe I found the will of God in pastoring a specific church.

Beyond experientially though, I think the larger answer is the condition of your heart. You and God both know whether you are simply being ambitious and looking for a larger/better opportunity or whether you have a sincere and humble desire to serve Him. Assuming the latter then in my mind either of the two methods you have mentioned in the OP are valid.

At the same time it is also wise to recognize the danger in each approach. In the first approach (I do nothing but pray) I am taking rather calvinistic perspective i.e. God will hit someone over the head and make them ask me to work there. We do not do that with soul winning. We do not do that with parenting. We do not do that in ministry. We are proactive. IOW, the danger of this method of finding a ministerial position is that we sit on our blessed assurance and then blame God when nothing turns up.

The danger of the second approach is not only that our heart can lead us astray out of ambition/greed/etc. but we can become so pragmatic that it ceases to be a spiritual operation. It becomes all about, as you say, networking. We do not pray. We do not trust. We manipulate. We sell ourselves. There is great danger here for the very job we are trying to get is by definition a spiritual job.

I'm not sure I have answered your question but I think it must go back to the heart. I think there must be a balanced approach. And I think since scripture isn't necessarily clear here we should be charitable about how we view the way others approach it and be firmly persuaded in our own mind.
 
The job I currently hold came because my brother worked there and saw the job posting. Nothing wrong with a "network" in the business world so I am not sure why it must be a problem in ministry. When we look over applications (church or camp) we ask for references.

If you happen to know the person who give a good referral does that invalidate the referral? Or does it make the referral all the more valuable because you know the character of the reference?

Note that this can be good or bad. A great candidate may hurt their cause by hitching their reputation to someone who's referral is a net negative for the reviewer.
 
subllibrm said:
I volunteered for 20 years. Was approached by the leadership to consider a full time position. Can't speak for anyone else.
Click to expand...

I happen to think this is the intended plan for ministry positions.  A church disciples the people so that they can become the next ministry leaders.  Of course, this does away with the need for Bible colleges, seminaries and networking a group of traveling speakers who will keep a log of people who want to minister and churches who did not disciple anyone into the position.
 
subllibrm said:
The job I currently hold came because my brother worked there and saw the job posting. Nothing wrong with a "network" in the business world so I am not sure why it must be a problem in ministry. When we look over applications (church or camp) we ask for references.

If you happen to know the person who give a good referral does that invalidate the referral? Or does it make the referral all the more valuable because you know the character of the reference?

Note that this can be good or bad. A great candidate may hurt their cause by hitching their reputation to someone who's referral is a net negative for the reviewer.
Click to expand...

Because nobody advises you to network the will of God.  They always tell you to just pray and allow God to send something your way, if He so desires it.
 
Tom Brennan said:
I've pastored two churches. The first came to me entirely unsolicited after a series of rather strange coincidences. The second one I went looking for via the HAC placement office. In both cases I genuinely believe I found the will of God in pastoring a specific church.

Beyond experientially though, I think the larger answer is the condition of your heart. You and God both know whether you are simply being ambitious and looking for a larger/better opportunity or whether you have a sincere and humble desire to serve Him. Assuming the latter then in my mind either of the two methods you have mentioned in the OP are valid.

At the same time it is also wise to recognize the danger in each approach. In the first approach (I do nothing but pray) I am taking rather calvinistic perspective i.e. God will hit someone over the head and make them ask me to work there. We do not do that with soul winning. We do not do that with parenting. We do not do that in ministry. We are proactive. IOW, the danger of this method of finding a ministerial position is that we sit on our blessed assurance and then blame God when nothing turns up.

The danger of the second approach is not only that our heart can lead us astray out of ambition/greed/etc. but we can become so pragmatic that it ceases to be a spiritual operation. It becomes all about, as you say, networking. We do not pray. We do not trust. We manipulate. We sell ourselves. There is great danger here for the very job we are trying to get is by definition a spiritual job.

I'm not sure I have answered your question but I think it must go back to the heart. I think there must be a balanced approach. And I think since scripture isn't necessarily clear here we should be charitable about how we view the way others approach it and be firmly persuaded in our own mind.
Click to expand...

Your suggestion is a balance of prayerful networking, which makes sense to me.  However, is this really God leading, or your networking that is opening doors?
 
Here is another question along the same lines:

If a church is unable to disciple any of its people to be able to pastor, should you go there to be the pastor knowing that they have no desire to accomplish the purpose of a church?
 
Binaca Chugger said:
Tom Brennan said:
I've pastored two churches. The first came to me entirely unsolicited after a series of rather strange coincidences. The second one I went looking for via the HAC placement office. In both cases I genuinely believe I found the will of God in pastoring a specific church.

Beyond experientially though, I think the larger answer is the condition of your heart. You and God both know whether you are simply being ambitious and looking for a larger/better opportunity or whether you have a sincere and humble desire to serve Him. Assuming the latter then in my mind either of the two methods you have mentioned in the OP are valid.

At the same time it is also wise to recognize the danger in each approach. In the first approach (I do nothing but pray) I am taking rather calvinistic perspective i.e. God will hit someone over the head and make them ask me to work there. We do not do that with soul winning. We do not do that with parenting. We do not do that in ministry. We are proactive. IOW, the danger of this method of finding a ministerial position is that we sit on our blessed assurance and then blame God when nothing turns up.

The danger of the second approach is not only that our heart can lead us astray out of ambition/greed/etc. but we can become so pragmatic that it ceases to be a spiritual operation. It becomes all about, as you say, networking. We do not pray. We do not trust. We manipulate. We sell ourselves. There is great danger here for the very job we are trying to get is by definition a spiritual job.

I'm not sure I have answered your question but I think it must go back to the heart. I think there must be a balanced approach. And I think since scripture isn't necessarily clear here we should be charitable about how we view the way others approach it and be firmly persuaded in our own mind.
Click to expand...

Your suggestion is a balance of prayerful networking, which makes sense to me.  However, is this really God leading, or your networking that is opening doors?
Click to expand...

I don't think you just take what comes your way. I've known evangelist that seem to find God's will changes so they start "pastoring"....... just about the time they get tired of traveling or struggling to make ends meet.

Also known people that seemed to finds God's will to preach a revival just about the same time bear or deer hunting season comes in.
 
Binaca Chugger said:
Your suggestion is a balance of prayerful networking, which makes sense to me.  However, is this really God leading, or your networking that is opening doors?
Click to expand...

Did you get married by just sitting there, praying about it, and waiting for God to tell some woman to pick you? Or did you look around for a woman you might want  to spend the rest of your life with and then volunteer your availability?

...again, obviously, dating/marriage can certainly be done without God but they do not - by definition - exclude God. We don't get our food by sitting and waiting for it to show up. I could go on and on. These don't violate the will of God assuming they are done in faith. How would obtaining a ministry position be any different?
 
Binaca Chugger said:
Here is another question along the same lines:

If a church is unable to disciple any of its people to be able to pastor, should you go there to be the pastor knowing that they have no desire to accomplish the purpose of a church?
Click to expand...

A. Can you expand on why that is the scriptural position? (Not that it isn't good; it certainly is)
B. Why wouldn't you? If you wait for a strong church to call you to pastor, one with no major weaknesses, you will die of old age...  :D
 
Tom Brennan said:
Binaca Chugger said:
Here is another question along the same lines:

If a church is unable to disciple any of its people to be able to pastor, should you go there to be the pastor knowing that they have no desire to accomplish the purpose of a church?
Click to expand...

A. Can you expand on why that is the scriptural position? (Not that it isn't good; it certainly is)
B. Why wouldn't you? If you wait for a strong church to call you to pastor, one with no major weaknesses, you will die of old age...  :D
Click to expand...

Quick response while still at my desk at work:

A.  Failure to disciple is a failure of the church to be a church.  If no one in the church is willing to lead the church, there is a failure to understand the purpose of Christianity and the local church.  I guess there may be the exception where a young church has a pastor leave and no one is yet discipled or there are no men there with that gift.  But that should really be rare.

B.  Why move your family to a new place so you can deliver a lesson to lethargic people who are always going to be apathetic in their Christianity?  This is where I think starting a church would be a much better prospect for someone who is gifted, called and prepared, but has no place to go.
 
Tom Brennan said:
Binaca Chugger said:
Your suggestion is a balance of prayerful networking, which makes sense to me.  However, is this really God leading, or your networking that is opening doors?
Click to expand...

Did you get married by just sitting there, praying about it, and waiting for God to tell some woman to pick you? Or did you look around for a woman you might want  to spend the rest of your life with and then volunteer your availability?
Click to expand...

True story:  When I was finally spiritually stable enough to date for the right reason, I decided I would.  I told Dr. Cowling in class to pick someone (He was harassing me about it) and I would ask her out.  A week later, he suggested a girl.  On the second date with her, I knew she was the one.  Got married a couple years later and have been ever since. 

Tom Brennan said:
...again, obviously, dating/marriage can certainly be done without God but they do not - by definition - exclude God. We don't get our food by sitting and waiting for it to show up. I could go on and on. These don't violate the will of God assuming they are done in faith. How would obtaining a ministry position be any different?
Click to expand...

So, what is the difference in my determining what to do, and God doing it, if I pursue these methods?
 
Binaca Chugger said:
So, what is the difference in my determining what to do, and God doing it, if I pursue these methods?
Click to expand...

Your heart and your faith.
 
Do you have the desire?
... then... are you qualified?
 
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