Does this article propagate idolatry?

[ALAYMAN]

That's fine.  And I rest in the Spirit-given discernment.  No shame in that, either.

I disagree with your interpretation of what constitutes the canon, but I never said you should be ashamed of your position.  If you however likewise believe that Scripture is not the Christian's ultimate rule for faith and practice, yes, I believe you to be in grave error bordering on a departure from the faith once delivered.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...molasses-boy.[/quote]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Two different conversations going on here turtle-boy...[/quote]

"...and have not love, he is as a..."

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...molasses-boy.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Two different conversations going on here turtle-boy...[/quote]

"...and have not love, he is as a..."
[/quote]

I love you enough to rebuke you for falsely calling me an idolator, sorghum-child.  Put your big-boy pants on when you use big-boy ad hominem.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...molasses-boy.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Two different conversations going on here turtle-boy...

"...and have not love, he is as a..."
[/quote]

I love you enough to rebuke you for falsely calling me an idolator, sorghum-child.  Put your big-boy pants on when you use big-boy ad hominem.[/quote]

If Sproul is your hero, you should strive more to engage those you disagree with more like him. He's always been (to my knowledge) respectful, considerate, gracious and kind to those he is verbally sparring with. As it is, you remind me more of Ruckman than anyone else.

 

[ALAYMAN]

And, nowhere has he claimed that the "rule of law" doesn't itself have authority.

Your authority to punish your child, or spank your wife, ain't the same kind of authority that God has, nor is it the same kind that Scripture has in the life of a Christian.  I've acknowledged multiple layers of authority are in play within our lives, but from the beginning I've stated what the main of evangelical tradition has asserted that in all matters Scripture is the Christian's final court on matters of faith and practice.

Alayman - Honest question: Do you even know what the problem we have with your stated stance is?

That I am right, and won't acquiesce to gross error?

 

[ALAYMAN]

If Sproul is your hero, you should strive more to engage those you disagree with more like him. He's always been (to my knowledge) respectful, considerate, gracious and kind to those he is verbally sparring with. As it is, you remind me more of Ruckman than anyone else.

lol, you called me and others idolators, but you want me to give you a smooch?  lol, Gump, you're too much.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Alayman - Honest question: Do you even know what the problem we have with your stated stance is?

That I am right, and won't acquiesce to gross error?
[/quote]

I'll take this to simply mean "no".

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

And, nowhere has he claimed that the "rule of law" doesn't itself have authority.

Your authority to punish your child, or spank your wife, ain't the same kind of authority that God has, nor is it the same kind that Scripture has in the life of a Christian.[/quote]

Absolutely. And the authority that stop signs have isn't the same type of authority that's in my employee handbook. I have explicitly stated that there are many types of authority in various areas of our lives.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]I've acknowledged multiple layers of authority are in play within our lives...[/quote]

Yes...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...but from the beginning I've stated what the main of evangelical tradition has asserted that in all matters Scripture is the Christian's final court on matters of faith and practice.[/quote]

...no.

Here is what you keep saying:

God = Scripture    ~~ authoritative for ~~>    humanity

Here is what we are saying (and Scripture itself teaches):

God  ~~  reveals ~~> Scripture    ~~ authoritative for ~~>  humanity


The equal sign is the problem. No one here has denied that Scripture (however you define that) is authoritative. No one has stated that Scripture (however you define that) can be over-ridden by any other form of authority out there. What they (and I) are clearly and emphatically stating is that Scripture (however you define that) is not equal to God Himself in any respect whatsoever.

 

[Castor Muscular]

rsc2a,  put another way,  what I'm reading from some is:

Scripture is the ultimate authority.
God is the ultimate authority.

You can't have two ultimate authorities.  Either one is penultimate (or lower), or you're saying scripture is God.  I'm pretty sure there isn't a quadity, that is, Father, Son, Spirit, and Scripture.  And if someone wants to quote me "In the beginning was the Word", you'll have to show me where "The Word" refers to the 66 books of canon. 

 

[rsc2a]

If Sproul is your hero, you should strive more to engage those you disagree with more like him. He's always been (to my knowledge) respectful, considerate, gracious and kind to those he is verbally sparring with. As it is, you remind me more of Ruckman than anyone else.

lol, you called me and others idolators, but you want me to give you a smooch?  lol, Gump, you're too much.

If you call yourself a Christian, that's exactly what I expect. Jesus said to pray for your enemies (and I wouldn't call you an enemy). He also said to love them. As some of those enemies were brutally murdering Him, He was actively forgiving them.

I expect you to treat everyone with dignity and respect regardless of their beliefs (or viewpoints) because they are counted among humanity, because they carry the very image of God as an intrinsic part of who they are. I expect you to value them as creatures cared for and loved by God if nothing else. I expect you to fulfill the law of Christ, to love others, to be patient, kind, long-suffering, gentle... I expect you to show at least shadows of love, joy, peace, patience, self-control.....

Yes, if you call yourself a Christian, I expect these things. If you don't call yourself a Christian, I won't have these expectations.

(And, FTR, I have stated repeatedly that I fall short on a regular basis. I have stated (or strongly implied?) that I am as guilty of idolatry as the next person. We all are. I try to repent when I get called on it. I don't defend it as a measure of how spiritual I am.)

 

[ALAYMAN]

rsc2a,  put another way,  what I'm reading from some is:

Scripture is the ultimate authority.
God is the ultimate authority.

You can't have two ultimate authorities.  Either one is penultimate (or lower), or you're saying scripture is God. 

SC actually had a very appropriate analogy with "the King" reference.  A King rules with authority, and his decrees are an extension of His authority.  God has not been silent, an He has ultimate authority, which is communicated by His word.

 

[ALAYMAN]

If you call yourself a Christian, that's exactly what I expect. Jesus said to pray for your enemies (and I wouldn't call you an enemy). He also said to love them. As some of those enemies were brutally murdering Him, He was actively forgiving them.

I expect you to treat everyone with dignity and respect regardless of their beliefs (or viewpoints) because they are counted among humanity, because they carry the very image of God as an intrinsic part of who they are. I expect you to value them as creatures cared for and loved by God if nothing else. I expect you to fulfill the law of Christ, to love others, to be patient, kind, long-suffering, gentle... I expect you to show at least shadows of love, joy, peace, patience, self-control.....

Yes, if you call yourself a Christian, I expect these things. If you don't call yourself a Christian, I won't have these expectations.

(And, FTR, I have stated repeatedly that I fall short on a regular basis. I have stated (or strongly implied?) that I am as guilty of idolatry as the next person. We all are. I try to repent when I get called on it. I don't defend it as a measure of how spiritual I am.)

Well, before you go falsely calling people idolators maybe you should consider that everybody ain't as spiritual as you.  Consider me the weaker brother and suck it up tortoise.

 

[Castor Muscular]

SC actually had a very appropriate analogy with "the King" reference.  A King rules with authority, and his decrees are an extension of His authority.  God has not been silent, an He has ultimate authority, which is communicated by His word.

Then, by definition, scripture is not the ultimate and final authority.  God is.  Scripture is merely an extension of his authority. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

SC actually had a very appropriate analogy with "the King" reference.  A King rules with authority, and his decrees are an extension of His authority.  God has not been silent, an He has ultimate authority, which is communicated by His word.

Then, by definition, scripture is not the ultimate and final authority.  God is.  Scripture is merely an extension of his authority.

The way you are stating it seems like semantics.  The reason that God's word has final authority is because there are often theories of competing authorities (Postmoderns make it existential experience, Catholics the magesterium and tradition on equal ground with Scripture, etc).  Evangelicals have by and large always agreed that no other source for authority ranks on the same level as Scripture. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

The way you are stating it seems like semantics.  The reason that God's word has final authority is because there are often theories of competing authorities (Postmoderns make it existential experience, Catholics the magesterium and tradition on equal ground with Scripture, etc).  Evangelicals have by and large always agreed that no other source for authority ranks on the same level as Scripture.

Now you're just saying that scripture trumps competing man-breathed authorities.  I think we all agree with that.  We just don't agree that the 66 books are necessarily all God-breathed scripture. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Now you're just saying that scripture trumps competing man-breathed authorities.

Yes, exactly, that's what I've said from the beginning.  I haven't argued for the 66 book canon once, though I believe it to be the right view of Scripture.  rsc2a's arguments have been that Scripture is not our final authority, but rather a plethora of other things rate on a similar plane.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]rsc2a's arguments have been that Scripture is not our final authority...[/quote]

Then, by definition, scripture is not the ultimate and final authority.  God is.  Scripture is merely an extension of his authority.  - CM

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Now you're just saying that scripture trumps competing man-breathed authorities.

Yes, exactly, that's what I've said from the beginning.  I haven't argued for the 66 book canon once, though I believe it to be the right view of Scripture.  rsc2a's arguments have been that Scripture is not our final authority, but rather a plethora of other things rate on a similar plane.

What they are arguing, in essence, is that we decide what God says and didn't say...so the authority rests with us.
Every man can do what is right in his own eyes.... :

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Well, before you go falsely calling people idolators maybe you should consider that everybody ain't as spiritual as you.[/quote]

I'm sure everyone isn't. I'm also sure there are innumerable people more spiritual than I am. I try not to compare myself to others on invisible traits that have no way of objectively measuring them.  With that being said...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Consider me the weaker brother and suck it up tortoise.[/quote]

...if the weaker brother is acting like a jerk, I'll still tell him to knock it off.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]What they are arguing, in essence, is that we decide what God says and didn't say...so the authority rests with us.[/quote]

That's not what I am saying. I'm saying that, ultimately, all authority rests with God. Whether we acknowledge it or not is completely irrelevant. Whether we want to make something else co-equal to God is irrelevant. God is the ultimate and final authority in all things.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I'm sure everyone isn't. I'm also sure there are innumerable people more spiritual than I am. I try not to compare myself to others on invisible traits that have no way of objectively measuring them.  With that being said...

You can't even tell when you're being compared to a pharisee, so I'm not worried about measuring up.


[quote author=rsc2a]
...if the weaker brother is acting like a jerk, I'll still tell him to knock it off.
[/quote]

lol, now I'm an idolatrous jerk.


You just can't make these things up.