Does this article propagate idolatry?

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The Holy Spirit is a 'given'....but your statement is in the extreme, IMO.

Without the empowerment of the Spirit, what does Scripture provide other than death?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The Spirit's indwelling came at Pentecost....there was Scripture long before that.
Not that the spirit didn't play a part in the lives of OT believers, but the indwelling was yet to come....

You also had dreams (a la Daniel), a priesthood (ie. a community of faith), still had nature, had the audible word of God at times, prophets....

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]...but Scripture came first and will remain throughout eternity.[/quote]

Even allowing for a very early writing, God was speaking to folks long before Scripture.
[/quote]


The letter of the law brings death.
The Gospel offers life, grace, peace, hope.....[/quote]

Yes...I believe that's what I said.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The OT Saints didn't have the benefit of the in dwelling Spirit.[/quote]

None of them?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I don't think anyone here has argued that God didn't speak to men before Scripture...that's how we received Scripture.[/quote]

You meant what then?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Will you answer my questions asked in my previous post?[/quote]

I did.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Does God use any of the afore-mentioned methods to instruct us...

Absolutely.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]...AND if He used such methods to contradict a Biblical principle would that be credible?[/quote]

And, of course not. One revelation from God cannot contradict a second revelation from God. Of course, there is always the possibility that we, in our fallible state, didn't understand one (or both) of the revelations and got it (them) wrong.
[/quote]


Say someone had a word of knowledge vision/ revelation that we were wrong on the sodomy is a sin issue and instructed the church that we should accept sodomy like we accept different races of people.

Would that word be given credibility...in your mind?

Not a trick question, just trying to get perspective.

 

[Castor Muscular]

The Holy Spirit is a 'given'....but your statement is in the extreme, IMO.

Really?

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ.

The Spirit's indwelling came at Pentecost....there was Scripture long before that.
Not that the spirit didn't play a part in the lives of OT believers, but the indwelling was yet to come....but Scripture came first and will remain throughout eternity.

We don't know who had the indwelling Spirit in the OT.  You can't argue from silence that nobody did.  Just because it became a "given" after Pentecost doesn't mean it never happened beforehand.  In fact, I'm certain I could cite cases that could only be explained by the indwelling Spirit (such as John the Baptist leaping for joy in the womb).  And if the above scripture is true, then the prophets must have had the Spirit of God, or the wouldn't have understood anything of what they were saying or writing. 

"14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -- this is more than just playing a part. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The Holy Spirit is a 'given'....but your statement is in the extreme, IMO.

Without the empowerment of the Spirit, what does Scripture provide other than death?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The Spirit's indwelling came at Pentecost....there was Scripture long before that.
Not that the spirit didn't play a part in the lives of OT believers, but the indwelling was yet to come....

You also had dreams (a la Daniel), a priesthood (ie. a community of faith), still had nature, had the audible word of God at times, prophets....

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]...but Scripture came first and will remain throughout eternity.

Even allowing for a very early writing, God was speaking to folks long before Scripture.
[/quote]


The letter of the law brings death.
The Gospel offers life, grace, peace, hope.....[/quote]

Yes...I believe that's what I said.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The OT Saints didn't have the benefit of the in dwelling Spirit.[/quote]

None of them?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I don't think anyone here has argued that God didn't speak to men before Scripture...that's how we received Scripture.[/quote]

You meant what then?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Will you answer my questions asked in my previous post?[/quote]

I did.
[/quote]

That's not what I heard...you said apart from the Holy Spirit the Scripture only brought death. Maybe it's semantics....


You again have a grasp of the obvious.....the Srcipture says the Spirit came upon some OT figures....but He left them. The permanent indwelling relationship began at Pentecost. Jesus said of the HS, He is with you but will soon be in you.

You are so obtuse...have a drink buddy! 

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]I'm not sure how you've read what I've written to mean anything in opposition to what you just wrote.  I don't believe (as a "fundamentalist") that a person is to be "hung up on waiting".  I never even introduced the concept of prayer into this discussion, you did.  The Christian life is to be one lived by faith, and that faith is in the objective Person of Christ as He has revealed Himself to us.  How has He revealed Himself to us?  In the Scriptures, which pertain to all of life and godliness, and settle all matters of faith and practice for the Christian, which is what I've argued from the beginning.

- And in the community of faith. 1 Cor 12:27
- And creation. Col 2:17
- And spiritual gifts. 1 Cor 14:22
- And sacraments. 1 Cor 11:27
- And....
[/quote]

And as I've said from the beginning, properly understanding Sola Scriptura, the evangelical community has posited that the word of God has the final say in any matters of dispute where these other authorities differ from it.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Does God use any of the afore-mentioned methods to instruct us...

Absolutely.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]...AND if He used such methods to contradict a Biblical principle would that be credible?

And, of course not. One revelation from God cannot contradict a second revelation from God. Of course, there is always the possibility that we, in our fallible state, didn't understand one (or both) of the revelations and got it (them) wrong.
[/quote]


Say someone had a word of knowledge vision/ revelation that we were wrong on the sodomy is a sin issue and instructed the church that we should accept sodomy like we accept different races of people.

Would that word be given credibility...in your mind?

Not a trick question, just trying to get perspective.[/quote]

First of all, that comparison is disgusting and reflective of a worldview completely opposed to the Gospel. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

Secondly, would their "revelation" be in opposition to what we know about God from Scripture (exegetically understood), the common understanding from the community of faith, nature, and such? I would have to say yes. Thus, no credibility for that particular "revelation".

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The Holy Spirit is a 'given'....but your statement is in the extreme, IMO.

Really?

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ.

The Spirit's indwelling came at Pentecost....there was Scripture long before that.
Not that the spirit didn't play a part in the lives of OT believers, but the indwelling was yet to come....but Scripture came first and will remain throughout eternity.

We don't know who had the indwelling Spirit in the OT.  You can't argue from silence that nobody did.  Just because it became a "given" after Pentecost doesn't mean it never happened beforehand.  In fact, I'm certain I could cite cases that could only be explained by the indwelling Spirit (such as John the Baptist leaping for joy in the womb).  And if the above scripture is true, then the prophets must have had the Spirit of God, or the wouldn't have understood anything of what they were saying or writing. 

"14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -- this is more than just playing a part.

It is a given to rational, intelligent students of scripture.

The Holy Spirit was present in the OT. (Duh)
In creation, He moved on the waters.
He 'came upon' some in the OT...but He left.
David prayed take not the Spirit from me....

The natural man doesn't possess the Spirit, that's why he's natural.....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Does God use any of the afore-mentioned methods to instruct us...

Absolutely.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]...AND if He used such methods to contradict a Biblical principle would that be credible?

And, of course not. One revelation from God cannot contradict a second revelation from God. Of course, there is always the possibility that we, in our fallible state, didn't understand one (or both) of the revelations and got it (them) wrong.

Say someone had a word of knowledge vision/ revelation that we were wrong on the sodomy is a sin issue and instructed the church that we should accept sodomy like we accept different races of people.

Would that word be given credibility...in your mind?

Not a trick question, just trying to get perspective.[/quote]

First of all, that comparison is disgusting and reflective of a worldview completely opposed to the Gospel. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

Secondly, would their "revelation" be in opposition to what we know about God from Scripture (exegetically understood), the common understanding from the community of faith, nature, and such? I would have to say yes. Thus, no credibility for that particular "revelation".
[/quote]


True, but unfortunately, that 'worldview' is offered by some in the modern church movement, for want of a better word.

Thanks for the answer.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]That's not what I heard...you said apart from the Holy Spirit the Scripture only brought death. Maybe it's semantics....[/quote]

Yes...so did Paul.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]You again have a grasp of the obvious.....the Srcipture says the Spirit came upon some OT figures....but He left them. The permanent indwelling relationship began at Pentecost. Jesus said of the HS, He is with you but will soon be in you.[/quote]

You know this how?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Does God use any of the afore-mentioned methods to instruct us AND if He used such methods to contradict a Biblical principle would that be credible?

It could be credible.  Again, I point out the "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek".  On the face, it seems contradictory.  If you're of a mind to dismiss everything that seems contradictory, you're likely to throw out the latter before you understand it.

Thanks for the honesty!
So, if God reveals Himself to you in a dream, vision or the clouds forming a message...and that message was in direct contradiction of Scripture....your message would trump Scripture!

Hence, YOU are your final authority....based on your dreams, visions and the environment!

Honesty?  You know nothing of honesty, unless you simply have a really big reading comprehension problem.

Alayman and I are both dishonest?

It's hard being you....but your post speaks for itself!
You could get a revelation  : that contradicts Scripture and it would be credible! Where is the dishonesty in hat statement?
Where is the comprehension problem in that statement?

I'm willing to learn....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]That's not what I heard...you said apart from the Holy Spirit the Scripture only brought death. Maybe it's semantics....

Yes...so did Paul.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]You again have a grasp of the obvious.....the Srcipture says the Spirit came upon some OT figures....but He left them. The permanent indwelling relationship began at Pentecost. Jesus said of the HS, He is with you but will soon be in you.[/quote]

You know this how?
[/quote]

Paul made a difference between the old and new covenants....the old brought death, the new life...thru the work and indwelling of the Spirit. The role of the Spirit obviously being different in the New as opposed to His role in the old.
Faith comes by hearing...hearing the Word of God. And, no man comes unless the Spirit draws him....thru the hearing of the Word.

What is your problem with that, exactly?


The Lord left Samson...according to Scripture.
David prayed take not the spirit from me.

You're really obtuse (have a drink on me ) so I'm asking...
Do you believe the indwelling of the HS occurred in the OT...meaning the same way the Spirit came at Pentecost?

 

[Castor Muscular]

I'm willing to learn....

Yes, but are you able?

I said:  A seemingly contradictory revelation could be credible.  Again, I point out the "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek".  On the face, it seems contradictory.  If you're of a mind to dismiss everything that seems contradictory, you're likely to throw out the latter before you understand it. 

At the time Jesus said that, it contradicted Scripture.  The NT had not yet been written.  This was a new revelation of grace, contradicting the old revelation of law.  The very existence of this account proves that something can contradict scripture and yet still be God-breathed and true.  Now, you might say, "Of course this was God-breathed... it came directly from God."  But surely you said you also believe that the writings of Paul are God-breathed?  And I can assure you, much of these writings contradict the accepted scripture of his day. 

For the record, I have no dreams, visions, or new revelations to share. 

Well, that's not exactly true.  I believe God has revealed to me some things in scripture that I think are hidden from others.  We discuss these things regularly on FFF.  It's why we often disagree on scriptural points.  You might think it's because of the opposite -- that God revealed the truth to you, and not to me.  That's fine... someday we'll find out. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

The Lord left Samson...according to Scripture.
David prayed take not the spirit from me.

Two historical examples does not make a law. 

God made a donkey talk, but I haven't heard much talking from donkeys lately.  (Great straight line, if anyone wants to go for it.  It's too easy for me.)

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Paul made a difference between the old and new covenants....the old brought death, the new life...thru the work and indwelling of the Spirit. The role of the Spirit obviously being different in the New as opposed to His role in the old.[/quote]

Paul also said that the Law by itself brought death, no?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Faith comes by hearing...hearing the Word of God. And, no man comes unless the Spirit draws him....thru the hearing of the Word.

What is your problem with that, exactly?[/quote]

Why would I have a problem with any of that?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The Lord left Samson...according to Scripture.[/quote]

But not Elijah...hmm...

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]David prayed take not the spirit from me.[/quote]

Yes?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Do you believe the indwelling of the HS occurred in the OT...meaning the same way the Spirit came at Pentecost?[/quote]

Individually? Probably.
In such a corporate fashion? Possibly.
With the same signs as at Pentecost? No.

Let me ask you a question: what do you think the indwelling of the Spirit accomplishes?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The Holy Spirit is a 'given'....but your statement is in the extreme, IMO.

Without the empowerment of the Spirit, what does Scripture provide other than death?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The Spirit's indwelling came at Pentecost....there was Scripture long before that.
Not that the spirit didn't play a part in the lives of OT believers, but the indwelling was yet to come....

You also had dreams (a la Daniel), a priesthood (ie. a community of faith), still had nature, had the audible word of God at times, prophets....

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]...but Scripture came first and will remain throughout eternity.[/quote]

Even allowing for a very early writing, God was speaking to folks long before Scripture.
[/quote]


The letter of the law brings death.
The Gospel offers life, grace, peace, hope.....

[/quote]

Therefore you shall keep his statutes and his commandments, which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land that the Lord your God is giving you for all time.

Oh that they had such a heart as this always, to fear me and to keep all my commandments, that it might go well with them and with their descendants forever!

And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as we are this day. And it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to do all this commandment before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us.

See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish...I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days,...

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I'm willing to learn....

Yes, but are you able?

I said:  A seemingly contradictory revelation could be credible.  Again, I point out the "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek".  On the face, it seems contradictory.  If you're of a mind to dismiss everything that seems contradictory, you're likely to throw out the latter before you understand it. 

At the time Jesus said that, it contradicted Scripture.  The NT had not yet been written.  This was a new revelation of grace, contradicting the old revelation of law.  The very existence of this account proves that something can contradict scripture and yet still be God-breathed and true.  Now, you might say, "Of course this was God-breathed... it came directly from God."  But surely you said you also believe that the writings of Paul are God-breathed?  And I can assure you, much of these writings contradict the accepted scripture of his day. 

For the record, I have no dreams, visions, or new revelations to share. 

Well, that's not exactly true.  I believe God has revealed to me some things in scripture that I think are hidden from others.  We discuss these things regularly on FFF.  It's why we often disagree on scriptural points.  You might think it's because of the opposite -- that God revealed the truth to you, and not to me.  That's fine... someday we'll find out.

Certainly the Gospels into the Book of Acts relate a  'transition' between the Old and New Covenants. Jesus came to fulfill, not abolish the Law.

The difference is, of course, the specific NT roles of grace and faith...activated by the new/different role of the Holy Spirit.

God has spoken to me in specific ways, thru His Word, although He hasn't given me any specific, special, extra- Biblical revelations.

You're right....one day each of us will give an account of HIMSELF to God.

I believe that apostasy is always characterized by a rebellion from God's principles given in His Word.
The 'last days' (whatever your definition) will be marked by a departure form the principles given in His Word.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Faith comes by hearing...hearing the Word of God.

This is one of my pet peeves.  That's not what the verse says.  It says:

"So then Faith comes by hearing, and hearing [comes] by the word of God."

I interpret that differently than most, but however one interprets it, please get the verse right.  There are two steps involved. 

 

[christundivided]

I'm willing to learn....

Yes, but are you able?

I said:  A seemingly contradictory revelation could be credible.  Again, I point out the "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek".  On the face, it seems contradictory.  If you're of a mind to dismiss everything that seems contradictory, you're likely to throw out the latter before you understand it. 

At the time Jesus said that, it contradicted Scripture.  The NT had not yet been written.  This was a new revelation of grace, contradicting the old revelation of law.  The very existence of this account proves that something can contradict scripture and yet still be God-breathed and true.  Now, you might say, "Of course this was God-breathed... it came directly from God."  But surely you said you also believe that the writings of Paul are God-breathed?  And I can assure you, much of these writings contradict the accepted scripture of his day. 

For the record, I have no dreams, visions, or new revelations to share. 

Well, that's not exactly true.  I believe God has revealed to me some things in scripture that I think are hidden from others.  We discuss these things regularly on FFF.  It's why we often disagree on scriptural points.  You might think it's because of the opposite -- that God revealed the truth to you, and not to me.  That's fine... someday we'll find out.

Certainly the Gospels into the Book of Acts relate a  'transition' between the Old and New Covenants. Jesus came to fulfill, not abolish the Law.

The difference is, of course, the specific NT roles of grace and faith...activated by the new/different role of the Holy Spirit.

God has spoken to me in specific ways, thru His Word, although He hasn't given me any specific, special, extra- Biblical revelations.

You're right....one day each of us will give an account of HIMSELF to God.

I believe that apostasy is always characterized by a rebellion from God's principles given in His Word.
The 'last days' (whatever your definition) will be marked by a departure form the principles given in His Word.

I love how so many pretend their not part of that falling away.... everyone "ELSE" is part of it... but not me. I understand completely..... So pitiful.

Dispensational thought is so silly at times. Its amazing how some people took a good concept and ruined it. TB will never convince me that Abraham only tasted of the Holy Ghost every once and while... and then He was gone. David's prayer was an appeal to something he feared. Just because David feared it..... doesn't mean it was or COULD happen. I use to pray the boogie man wouldn't get me my sleep. Haven't prayed that way in a LONG time. Samson's situation is rather unique and could be seen as the Spirit empowering Him from time to time and not necessarily leaving him altogether.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Faith comes by hearing...hearing the Word of God.

This is one of my pet peeves.  That's not what the verse says.  It says:

"So then Faith comes by hearing, and hearing [comes] by the word of God."

I interpret that differently than most, but however one interprets it, please get the verse right.  There are two steps involved.

Faith comes by hearing.
Specifically by hearing the Word of God/Christ...not hearing generic noise or sounds...is the point.


New International Version
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

New Living Translation
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

English Standard Version
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

New American Standard Bible
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

King James Bible
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

International Standard Version
Consequently, faith results from listening, and listening results through the word of the Messiah.

NET Bible
Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Therefore faith is from the hearing ear, and the hearing ear is from the word of God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
So faith comes from hearing the message, and the message that is heard is what Christ spoke.

King James 2000 Bible
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

American King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

American Standard Version
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.

Darby Bible Translation
So faith then is by a report, but the report by God's word.

English Revised Version
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Webster's Bible Translation
So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

So do you deny Luther's authorship to the above quotes?

Seems like Luther was suspicious of James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation.

I'm personally particularly suspicious of 2 Peter, James, and Hebrews.

Luther included them in the canon of his German translation.
He also included the Apocrypha but differentiated it with a footnote saying it was not inspired.
Those are facts.

When you publish your translation, leave them out! ;D

Luther questioned their apostolic authority in his prefaces.

Luther preached from James on at least one occasion.