Election is Christocentric

[praise_yeshua]

I think any rational person would say that election is "Election is Christocentric". In fact, there really isn't any other way around it. God's choice in humanity was first a choice in His darling Son. Jesus Christ.

However, the damnable nonsense of "Calvin's goon's" make it all about THEM.....

THEY ARE GOD's first choice. In fact, they rob all the glory from Christ and then pretend they really are glorifying God more than anyone else.

 

[Tim]

I think any rational person would say that election is "Election is Christocentric". In fact, there really isn't any other way around it. God's choice in humanity was first a choice in His darling Son. Jesus Christ.

However, the damnable nonsense of "Calvin's goon's" make it all about THEM.....

THEY ARE GOD's first choice. In fact, they rob all the glory from Christ and then pretend they really are glorifying God more than anyone else.

I don't see it that way at all.

I constantly am reminded of King David.  God testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'

Do you read anywhere that David  rob all the glory from Christ?

And what about Abraham? What cam first? God or His Faith in God? Did Abraham rob all the glory from Christ?

Does not the Bible teach to fear the Lord? To laud Him? To serve Him? To Obey Him? Only a person who has been changed internally can do this - and it is all about praising a Holy God.

No. I don't see election as a boasting of self, but actually, free grace to all is more about boasting since that can easily point to "self" as seeing the need for Christ.

We can't all just hate each other for doctrinal differences. We need to learn why we see things different and search our own hearts to see if we are truly in the "know" personally.

I believe God has grace for each human - and due to the lack of preaching, witness of Christians, and the simply fact of sin getting in the way, many are going to hell in the very condition they were born in.

But. Honestly. No matter how you slice it - why did God even offer a way of salvation? Why?

Both views are about Love.

 

[biscuit1953]

There won't be one person in heaven saying  "Look at me!  Look at me!  I'm here because of my faith.  It's because of what I I did!" 

Unless God changes a person's heart he will die and go to hell.  Period.  A sinful man cannot change his nature any more than a pig can change its nature.  If anyone is saved it is because of the grace of God and God being glorified in saving those who don't deserve to be saved. 

The biggest hangup of those who are afraid of election is they actually believe the human race deserves salvation and charge God with being unfair because He doesn't fit their concept of who He is. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I think any rational person would say that election is "Election is Christocentric". In fact, there really isn't any other way around it. God's choice in humanity was first a choice in His darling Son. Jesus Christ.

However, the damnable nonsense of "Calvin's goon's" make it all about THEM.....

THEY ARE GOD's first choice. In fact, they rob all the glory from Christ and then pretend they really are glorifying God more than anyone else.

Of course the elect are those who are chosen in Christ.  But God does the choosing.  It says so plainly in scripture.  Election is those who are chosen, not those who choose. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think any rational person would say that election is "Election is Christocentric". In fact, there really isn't any other way around it. God's choice in humanity was first a choice in His darling Son. Jesus Christ.

However, the damnable nonsense of "Calvin's goon's" make it all about THEM.....

THEY ARE GOD's first choice. In fact, they rob all the glory from Christ and then pretend they really are glorifying God more than anyone else.

I don't see it that way at all.

I constantly am reminded of King David.  God testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'

Do you read anywhere that David  rob all the glory from Christ?

And what about Abraham? What cam first? God or His Faith in God? Did Abraham rob all the glory from Christ?

Does not the Bible teach to fear the Lord? To laud Him? To serve Him? To Obey Him? Only a person who has been changed internally can do this - and it is all about praising a Holy God.

No. I don't see election as a boasting of self, but actually, free grace to all is more about boasting since that can easily point to "self" as seeing the need for Christ.

We can't all just hate each other for doctrinal differences. We need to learn why we see things different and search our own hearts to see if we are truly in the "know" personally.

I believe God has grace for each human - and due to the lack of preaching, witness of Christians, and the simply fact of sin getting in the way, many are going to hell in the very condition they were born in.

But. Honestly. No matter how you slice it - why did God even offer a way of salvation? Why?

Both views are about Love.

Tim.... I can't make any theological sense out of what you posted.

Its really rather simple. Calvin's goons say that God chose them in eternity past to be the elect. That isn't remotely true. God chose His Son. All peoples are corporately chosen in Christ. His Church.

Its really that simple. This isn't Christ centric. Not even close.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There won't be one person in heaven saying  "Look at me!  Look at me!  I'm here because of my faith.  It's because of what I I did!" 

Unless God changes a person's heart he will die and go to hell.  Period.  A sinful man cannot change his nature any more than a pig can change its nature.  If anyone is saved it is because of the grace of God and God being glorified in saving those who don't deserve to be saved. 

The biggest hangup of those who are afraid of election is they actually believe the human race deserves salvation and charge God with being unfair because He doesn't fit their concept of who He is.

Faith is powerless to save. Man is not empowered to save himself via faith. God is the only one that has the power to save anyone. Bragging about faith is impossible. Faith has no power. Works on the other hand.... that's the problem.

You can't turn faith into works and that is exactly what your argument does. Its contrary to common sense and contrary to the Scriptures.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think any rational person would say that election is "Election is Christocentric". In fact, there really isn't any other way around it. God's choice in humanity was first a choice in His darling Son. Jesus Christ.

However, the damnable nonsense of "Calvin's goon's" make it all about THEM.....

THEY ARE GOD's first choice. In fact, they rob all the glory from Christ and then pretend they really are glorifying God more than anyone else.

Of course the elect are those who are chosen in Christ.  But God does the choosing.  It says so plainly in scripture.  Election is those who are chosen, not those who choose.

They are chosen in Christ. In other words. Its God's chose in the Christ. Not God's choice in the elect.

How hard is this to understand? Why are you playing games. You know you believe that God chose you first. That is what you Calvinisnt goons believe. All of God's choices revolve around YOU!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I think any rational person would say that election is "Election is Christocentric". In fact, there really isn't any other way around it. God's choice in humanity was first a choice in His darling Son. Jesus Christ.

However, the damnable nonsense of "Calvin's goon's" make it all about THEM.....

THEY ARE GOD's first choice. In fact, they rob all the glory from Christ and then pretend they really are glorifying God more than anyone else.

Of course the elect are those who are chosen in Christ.  But God does the choosing.  It says so plainly in scripture.  Election is those who are chosen, not those who choose.

They are chosen in Christ. In other words. Its God's chose in the Christ. Not God's choice in the elect.

How hard is this to understand? Why are you playing games. You know you believe that God chose you first. That is what you Calvinisnt goons believe. All of God's choices revolve around YOU!

I don't know what you're fussing about.  The fact that we are chosen in Christ doesn't change the meaning of "chosen" or "elect".  God chose.  It's as simple as that. 

 

[rsc2a]

Election is those who are chosen, not those who choose.

I vote both.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think any rational person would say that election is "Election is Christocentric". In fact, there really isn't any other way around it. God's choice in humanity was first a choice in His darling Son. Jesus Christ.

However, the damnable nonsense of "Calvin's goon's" make it all about THEM.....

THEY ARE GOD's first choice. In fact, they rob all the glory from Christ and then pretend they really are glorifying God more than anyone else.

Of course the elect are those who are chosen in Christ.  But God does the choosing.  It says so plainly in scripture.  Election is those who are chosen, not those who choose.

They are chosen in Christ. In other words. Its God's chose in the Christ. Not God's choice in the elect.

How hard is this to understand? Why are you playing games. You know you believe that God chose you first. That is what you Calvinisnt goons believe. All of God's choices revolve around YOU!

I don't know what you're fussing about.  The fact that we are chosen in Christ doesn't change the meaning of "chosen" or "elect".  God chose.  It's as simple as that.

Who said it did?

I SAID you believe it was God's choice in YOU. Not Christ.

 

[Bob H]

I don't know what you're fussing about.  The fact that we are chosen in Christ doesn't change the meaning of "chosen" or "elect".  God chose.  It's as simple as that.

Ok. But you can't have one without the other. Hope you can admit it.


"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

 

[bgwilkinson]

I don't know what you're fussing about.  The fact that we are chosen in Christ doesn't change the meaning of "chosen" or "elect".  God chose.  It's as simple as that.

Ok. But you can't have one without the other. Hope you can admit it.


"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

The complete thought is more revealing.
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience  vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known  the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory?24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I think any rational person would say that election is "Election is Christocentric". In fact, there really isn't any other way around it. God's choice in humanity was first a choice in His darling Son. Jesus Christ.

However, the damnable nonsense of "Calvin's goon's" make it all about THEM.....

THEY ARE GOD's first choice. In fact, they rob all the glory from Christ and then pretend they really are glorifying God more than anyone else.

Of course the elect are those who are chosen in Christ.  But God does the choosing.  It says so plainly in scripture.  Election is those who are chosen, not those who choose.

They are chosen in Christ. In other words. Its God's chose in the Christ. Not God's choice in the elect.

How hard is this to understand? Why are you playing games. You know you believe that God chose you first. That is what you Calvinisnt goons believe. All of God's choices revolve around YOU!

I don't know what you're fussing about.  The fact that we are chosen in Christ doesn't change the meaning of "chosen" or "elect".  God chose.  It's as simple as that.

Who said it did?

I SAID you believe it was God's choice in YOU. Not Christ.

So now you're telling me what I believe? 

What do you believe?  That God chooses those who choose Christ?  If so, then you're adding to the text.  The Bible never says that.  You may BELIEVE it, but it's not what the text says.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I don't know what you're fussing about.  The fact that we are chosen in Christ doesn't change the meaning of "chosen" or "elect".  God chose.  It's as simple as that.

Ok. But you can't have one without the other. Hope you can admit it.

The question isn't whether or not we choose.  The question is WHY we choose, or in what order does the choosing happen?  Did I choose God because he chose me?  (yes, that's what the Bible says)

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

Exactly.  God, wanting to show his wrath, endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath he prepares for destruction.  In other words, God makes some vessels specifically for that purpose. 

 

[rsc2a]

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

Exactly.  God, wanting to show his wrath, endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath he prepares for destruction.  In other words, God makes some vessels specifically for that purpose.

Actually, it says what if God does this.

 

[FSSL]

I think any rational person would say that election is "Election is Christocentric". In fact, there really isn't any other way around it. God's choice in humanity was first a choice in His darling Son. Jesus Christ.

However, the damnable nonsense of "Calvin's goon's" make it all about THEM.....

THEY ARE GOD's first choice. In fact, they rob all the glory from Christ and then pretend they really are glorifying God more than anyone else.

If individuals are not chosen, then justification, sanctification, perseverance and glorification are all obscured and rendered senseless. Justification, sanctification, glorification all stem from the fact that we have been chosen. Only individuals are justified, sanctified, glorified and chosen (Romans 8:30)

Even individuals within the chosen nation of Israel were chosen... Remember Romans 9? God chose Jacob, an individual.

 

[Bob H]

I don't know what you're fussing about.  The fact that we are chosen in Christ doesn't change the meaning of "chosen" or "elect".  God chose.  It's as simple as that.

Ok. But you can't have one without the other. Hope you can admit it.

The question isn't whether or not we choose.  The question is WHY we choose, or in what order does the choosing happen?  Did I choose God because he chose me?  (yes, that's what the Bible says)

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

Exactly.  God, wanting to show his wrath, endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath he prepares for destruction.  In other words, God makes some vessels specifically for that purpose.

Thank you. Most cals don't like to admit to double predestination.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

Exactly.  God, wanting to show his wrath, endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath he prepares for destruction.  In other words, God makes some vessels specifically for that purpose.

Actually, it says what if God does this.

I know you're joking, but for the benefit of others, the context of the "what if" is "What's it to you, bud? You got a problem wit dat?" 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I don't know what you're fussing about.  The fact that we are chosen in Christ doesn't change the meaning of "chosen" or "elect".  God chose.  It's as simple as that.

Ok. But you can't have one without the other. Hope you can admit it.

The question isn't whether or not we choose.  The question is WHY we choose, or in what order does the choosing happen?  Did I choose God because he chose me?  (yes, that's what the Bible says)

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

Exactly.  God, wanting to show his wrath, endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath he prepares for destruction.  In other words, God makes some vessels specifically for that purpose.

Thank you. Most cals don't like to admit to double predestination.

What's it to you, bud?  You got a problem wit dat?    (See above post to rsc2a.)

Seriously, that's Paul's answer to those who object to God predestining some to destruction. 

19 One of you will say to me: ?Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?? 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? 

In other words, "What's it to you, bud?  You got a problem wit dat?  Talk to da hand!!  God's hand!"

 

[Bob H]

... Remember Romans 9?....................

You got one thing right.....................Romans 9 is the battle ground for the debate. To bad the cals misinterpret it