Election is Christocentric

[praise_yeshua]

.... just found a version with "them."

So now that this silly round-about has happened, what is your  point?

Tell me how "them" is singular.

I never said that.

You as good as said "them" was singular. "Them" is in the text. Explain the difference between the reality of the text and what YOU said.

 

[FSSL]

.... just found a version with "them."

So now that this silly round-about has happened, what is your  point?

Tell me how "them" is singular.

I never said that.

You as good as said "them" was singular. "Them" is in the text. Explain the difference between the reality of the text and what YOU said.

Quote me. I am not prepared to defend something I do not believe.

 

[rsc2a]

I've had opportunities in my life to work with Calvinists in ministry and I refused to do so. I gave up trying to get along with them. I just tell it like it is.

I'm sure they were absolutely heartbroken.

Just as much as those outside your circle.

If you really want to minister with someone who shares your compassion, I might recommend the Westboro Baptist folks.

And how do you know how much others are willing to work with my family? Or its this another time when you make stuff up, tell people what they actually think, then call them stupid for disagreeing with what you said they believe?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I've had opportunities in my life to work with Calvinists in ministry and I refused to do so. I gave up trying to get along with them. I just tell it like it is.

I'm sure they were absolutely heartbroken.

Just as much as those outside your circle.

If you really want to minister with someone who shares your compassion, I might recommend the Westboro Baptist folks.

And how do you know how much others are willing to work with my family? Or its this another time when you make stuff up, tell people what they actually think, then call them stupid for disagreeing with what you said they believe?

Isn't that funny. You say I don't know you and then you claim to know me.....

Typical liberal. You can't keep your logic straight. If I don't know you.... you certainly don't know me. What a buffoon.

By the way, I'm just acting like Calvin. In fact, I haven't begun to act like Calvin.... YET. Calvin liked to call people names.

Maybe you should start a thread on how ungodly Calvin was for calling names.... You little pansy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

.... just found a version with "them."

So now that this silly round-about has happened, what is your  point?

Tell me how "them" is singular.

I never said that.

You as good as said "them" was singular. "Them" is in the text. Explain the difference between the reality of the text and what YOU said.

Quote me. I am not prepared to defend something I do not believe.

I don't think you're prepared to defend much of anything.... This is what you said....

"Those" is plural, not a collective or group. If this referred to Israel, we would have a singular pronoun

 

[FSSL]

Tell me how "them" is singular.

You as good as said "them" was singular. "Them" is in the text. Explain the difference between the reality of the text and what YOU said.

"Those" is plural , not a collective or group. If this referred to Israel, we would have a singular pronoun.

Okay... now let's move forward. You misread, and misread and misread.  I clearly said that "Those" (in most modern versions, translated "them" in the KJV) is plural.

See... I never said it was singular.

 

[Ransom]

I've had opportunities in my life to work with Calvinists in ministry and I refused to do so. I gave up trying to get along with them.

Darn. All those lost opportunities to gaze lovingly at your infallibility.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I've had opportunities in my life to work with Calvinists in ministry and I refused to do so. I gave up trying to get along with them.

Darn. All those lost opportunities to gaze lovingly at your infallibility.

Pot......

I've never seen you admit to a mistake. Not once. At least we are "twins" in the matter.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Tell me how "them" is singular.

You as good as said "them" was singular. "Them" is in the text. Explain the difference between the reality of the text and what YOU said.

"Those" is plural , not a collective or group. If this referred to Israel, we would have a singular pronoun.

Okay... now let's move forward. You misread, and misread and misread.  I clearly said that "Those" (in most modern versions, translated "them" in the KJV) is plural.

See... I never said it was singular.

You know those and them are similar. I just depends on your usage of them. Tell me the difference based on your usage.

Why did you reference Israel and point to a singular pronoun in speaking of a collective?

 

[FSSL]

You know those and them are similar. I just depends on your usage of them. Tell me the difference based on your usage.

No real difference that changes the interpretation of this passage... Not an issue with me. Unless you speak like a person in 1611, it makes no diff.

Why did you reference Israel and point to a singular pronoun in speaking of a collective?

Many, in their attempts to deny that individuals are elect, see the election as corporate. They opine that Israel was God's "Plan A" and the Church is God's "Plan B." So, to deny the election of individuals, they take this entire passage metaphorically. I've seen that kind of crazy thinking before.

So, I am just making the point that NO corporate view of election works in this passage. It is speaking of the election of "those/them" individuals.

The grammar and use of historical individuals only supports an individual, personal view of election.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I couldn't decide whether to go with this, or "Waiting for Bo to understand any scripture."  I said, what the heck, go with the PY meme.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You know those and them are similar. I just depends on your usage of them. Tell me the difference based on your usage.

No real difference that changes the interpretation of this passage... Not an issue with me. Unless you speak like a person in 1611, it makes no diff.

Why did you reference Israel and point to a singular pronoun in speaking of a collective?

Many, in their attempts to deny that individuals are elect, see the election as corporate. They opine that Israel was God's "Plan A" and the Church is God's "Plan B." So, to deny the election of individuals, they take this entire passage metaphorically. I've seen that kind of crazy thinking before.

So, I am just making the point that NO corporate view of election works in this passage. It is speaking of the election of "those/them" individuals.

The grammar and use of historical individuals only supports an individual, personal view of election.

Tell me the last time you "saw" this? Please be specific.

You're making what I call the "Wallace" defense. I realized this yesterday driving into work. Its a rather silly defense.

It really weaslly and dishonest to say that Romans 8:30 uses a plural pronoun and then refuse to see "multiple" peoples or a "group" of people in the verse. You want to see an individual. Just how dishonest can you get?

There is a "group" of people mentioned in this verse. This "group" of people is referenced as "them" or "those". It is impossible to see a single individual in this verse. Impossible. Ita a group. A collective. "Corporate" election. IN OTHER VERSES.... the use of the word "elect" reference a people. Not a person. Never has. Never will. You Calvinists are so dishonest.

God's singular choice in election was His SINGLE choice in His darling Son. That is who deserves the glory. That is who deserves EVERYTHING.

I haven't read one verse that has your name in it. Not one. .... but you want to make it about YOU. Calvin did. You do.

 

[subllibrm]

I said that God chose the Church, the elect... In Christ. God's choice was in Christ. Not in the elect themselves. You have a very poor understanding of election.

So do you ever flesh that out or are we supposed to understand it because you keep repeating it over and over?

 

[subllibrm]

Why in the world are you trying to include Israel? I didn't ask for your interpretation. I ask you about the grammatical construct of the verse.
How is "plural" not a group? It certainly isn't singular. Explain to me how plural is singular.

Your post is not very clear... but let me put it this way...

If it is a group (a collective), then it would be a singular pronoun.
Since we have a plural pronoun, this passage refers to more than one person.

This passage is addressing the election, justification and glorification of individuals.

Do you really believe this? A group is referenced by a singular pronoun?

What about "them"? Do you know what "them" means?

Phrases like "you O Israel ..." are singular pronouns.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I said that God chose the Church, the elect... In Christ. God's choice was in Christ. Not in the elect themselves. You have a very poor understanding of election.

So do you ever flesh that out or are we supposed to understand it because you keep repeating it over and over?

It an entirely different "thing" to say that God chose individuals than it is to say that God chose a "group" of people. The focus is removed from the individual and placed upon the group. The Calvinist knows this. It is one of the reasons they go to great lengths to fight this truth. To lie about the Scriptures.

God's singular choice was in His Son. God's singular focus in the election of any group of people was His choice in Christ. God has something to "go by" when He made His choice. It certain wasn't the elect. It was His Son.

Do you understand any better now?

 

[subllibrm]

Some people just get so upset, it renders their arguments as clear as mud. 

As that guy in LA once said, "can't we all just get along"?

No more vitriolic polemic ad hominem attacks.

Let the succinctness and lucidity of your arguments rise to the fore.

Yeah. Jesus didn't get anything across when he made a whip and drove some people out of the temple. He RUINED everything He was trying to say....

Listen. I hate Calvinism. I HATE it. I've had opportunities in my life to work with Calvinists in ministry and I refused to do so. I gave up trying to get along with them. I just tell it like it is. Calvinism is a damnable doctrine that is destroying the lives of many people.

I could care less what you think about my methods. You're a Calvinist and all you're looking to do is pretend you're taking the "high road" in the argument. You have never made much of theological attempt to defend what you believe. You can't. Its beyond you. None of you really have. FSSL is just playing around. I use to think he could defend himself and he's proven my suspicion wrong.

And yet you spend hours on a forum with mostly Calvinist?

There are few here.... I wouldn't say they are the majority. To fight the good fight.... you have to spend time with them.... Geesh!!!!

???

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why in the world are you trying to include Israel? I didn't ask for your interpretation. I ask you about the grammatical construct of the verse.
How is "plural" not a group? It certainly isn't singular. Explain to me how plural is singular.

Your post is not very clear... but let me put it this way...

If it is a group (a collective), then it would be a singular pronoun.
Since we have a plural pronoun, this passage refers to more than one person.

This passage is addressing the election, justification and glorification of individuals.

Do you really believe this? A group is referenced by a singular pronoun?

What about "them"? Do you know what "them" means?

Phrases like "you O Israel ..." are singular pronouns.

"O Israel" isn't in Romans 8:30. Why are you agreeing with FSSL? He's wrong. He's trying to interject something that isn't there. Which is exactly what I we were arguing about. How about keeping this straight!!! You have to walk before you run. You have to learn to put one foot in front of the other.

 

[subllibrm]

I said that God chose the Church, the elect... In Christ. God's choice was in Christ. Not in the elect themselves. You have a very poor understanding of election.

So do you ever flesh that out or are we supposed to understand it because you keep repeating it over and over?

It an entirely different "thing" to say that God chose individuals than it is to say that God chose a "group" of people. The focus is removed from the individual and placed upon the group. The Calvinist knows this. It is one of the reasons they go to great lengths to fight this truth. To lie about the Scriptures.

God's singular choice was in His Son. God's singular focus in the election of any group of people was His choice in Christ. God has something to "go by" when He made His choice. It certain wasn't the elect. It was His Son.

Do you understand any better now?

Not really. Sorry.

 

[subllibrm]

Why in the world are you trying to include Israel? I didn't ask for your interpretation. I ask you about the grammatical construct of the verse.
How is "plural" not a group? It certainly isn't singular. Explain to me how plural is singular.

Your post is not very clear... but let me put it this way...

If it is a group (a collective), then it would be a singular pronoun.
Since we have a plural pronoun, this passage refers to more than one person.

This passage is addressing the election, justification and glorification of individuals.

Do you really believe this? A group is referenced by a singular pronoun?

What about "them"? Do you know what "them" means?

Phrases like "you O Israel ..." are singular pronouns.

"O Israel" isn't in Romans 8:30. Why are you agreeing with FSSL? He's wrong. He's trying to interject something that isn't there. Which is exactly what I we were arguing about. How about keeping this straight!!! You have to walk before you run. You have to learn to put one foot in front of the other.

I was pointing out that Israel is often mentioned in the singular. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I said that God chose the Church, the elect... In Christ. God's choice was in Christ. Not in the elect themselves. You have a very poor understanding of election.

So do you ever flesh that out or are we supposed to understand it because you keep repeating it over and over?

It an entirely different "thing" to say that God chose individuals than it is to say that God chose a "group" of people. The focus is removed from the individual and placed upon the group. The Calvinist knows this. It is one of the reasons they go to great lengths to fight this truth. To lie about the Scriptures.

God's singular choice was in His Son. God's singular focus in the election of any group of people was His choice in Christ. God has something to "go by" when He made His choice. It certain wasn't the elect. It was His Son.

Do you understand any better now?

Not really. Sorry.

Are you being obtuse????

Here let me give you an example. Say you told your daughter was a member of a large charitable organization. She personally gave everything she had to see the group succeed in their work while everyone else did nothing. Better yet. Many actually worked against her efforts to be successful..... Yet, her work was a HUGE success. It made the news. Everyone started talking about just how well everyone had done. The self appointed leaders of the group wanted to talk about how every individual was essential to the success of the organization.... ignoring the sacrifice your daughter had made alone?

Just how would you feel?

A Calvinist makes election about themselves..... when it is all about Christ.