Election is Christocentric

[praise_yeshua]

Why in the world are you trying to include Israel? I didn't ask for your interpretation. I ask you about the grammatical construct of the verse.
How is "plural" not a group? It certainly isn't singular. Explain to me how plural is singular.

Your post is not very clear... but let me put it this way...

If it is a group (a collective), then it would be a singular pronoun.
Since we have a plural pronoun, this passage refers to more than one person.

This passage is addressing the election, justification and glorification of individuals.

Do you really believe this? A group is referenced by a singular pronoun?

What about "them"? Do you know what "them" means?

Phrases like "you O Israel ..." are singular pronouns.

"O Israel" isn't in Romans 8:30. Why are you agreeing with FSSL? He's wrong. He's trying to interject something that isn't there. Which is exactly what I we were arguing about. How about keeping this straight!!! You have to walk before you run. You have to learn to put one foot in front of the other.

I was pointing out that Israel is often mentioned in the singular. Nothing more, nothing less.

Israel was more than just one person...... This is true regardless of a singular reference to a group. A "group" is more than one. It doesn't matter if its Israel or its the "elect". God work was for the group.

Have you ever heard the old saying....

"Bless God.... I believe if I was the ONLY ONE in sin.... God would have died for me alone!!!!"....

 

[subllibrm]

I said that God chose the Church, the elect... In Christ. God's choice was in Christ. Not in the elect themselves. You have a very poor understanding of election.

So do you ever flesh that out or are we supposed to understand it because you keep repeating it over and over?

It an entirely different "thing" to say that God chose individuals than it is to say that God chose a "group" of people. The focus is removed from the individual and placed upon the group. The Calvinist knows this. It is one of the reasons they go to great lengths to fight this truth. To lie about the Scriptures.

God's singular choice was in His Son. God's singular focus in the election of any group of people was His choice in Christ. God has something to "go by" when He made His choice. It certain wasn't the elect. It was His Son.

Do you understand any better now?

Not really. Sorry.

Are you being obtuse????

Here let me give you an example. Say you told your daughter was a member of a large charitable organization. She personally gave everything she had to see the group succeed in their work while everyone else did nothing. Better yet. Many actually worked against her efforts to be successful..... Yet, her work was a HUGE success. It made the news. Everyone started talking about just how well everyone had done. The self appointed leaders of the group wanted to talk about how every individual was essential to the success of the organization.... ignoring the sacrifice your daughter had made alone?

Just how would you feel?

A Calvinist makes election about themselves..... when it is all about Christ.

But I am not essential to the work of Christ and I have never claimed any such thing. I'm not sure that I have seen anyone else claim that either.

FWIW I still think that you are confusing reformed/covenant theology with sovereign grace.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I said that God chose the Church, the elect... In Christ. God's choice was in Christ. Not in the elect themselves. You have a very poor understanding of election.

So do you ever flesh that out or are we supposed to understand it because you keep repeating it over and over?

It an entirely different "thing" to say that God chose individuals than it is to say that God chose a "group" of people. The focus is removed from the individual and placed upon the group. The Calvinist knows this. It is one of the reasons they go to great lengths to fight this truth. To lie about the Scriptures.

God's singular choice was in His Son. God's singular focus in the election of any group of people was His choice in Christ. God has something to "go by" when He made His choice. It certain wasn't the elect. It was His Son.

Do you understand any better now?

Not really. Sorry.

Are you being obtuse????

Here let me give you an example. Say you told your daughter was a member of a large charitable organization. She personally gave everything she had to see the group succeed in their work while everyone else did nothing. Better yet. Many actually worked against her efforts to be successful..... Yet, her work was a HUGE success. It made the news. Everyone started talking about just how well everyone had done. The self appointed leaders of the group wanted to talk about how every individual was essential to the success of the organization.... ignoring the sacrifice your daughter had made alone?

Just how would you feel?

A Calvinist makes election about themselves..... when it is all about Christ.

But I am not essential to the work of Christ and I have never claimed any such thing. I'm not sure that I have seen anyone else claim that either.

FWIW I still think that you are confusing reformed/covenant theology with sovereign grace.

Nope. The teaching of election on reformed/covenant theology is about the individual. I'm not confused at all. You might be.

 

[rsc2a]

I said that God chose the Church, the elect... In Christ. God's choice was in Christ. Not in the elect themselves. You have a very poor understanding of election.

So do you ever flesh that out or are we supposed to understand it because you keep repeating it over and over?

It an entirely different "thing" to say that God chose individuals than it is to say that God chose a "group" of people. The focus is removed from the individual and placed upon the group. The Calvinist knows this. It is one of the reasons they go to great lengths to fight this truth. To lie about the Scriptures.

God's singular choice was in His Son. God's singular focus in the election of any group of people was His choice in Christ. God has something to "go by" when He made His choice. It certain wasn't the elect. It was His Son.

Do you understand any better now?

Not really. Sorry.

Are you being obtuse????

Yes. Clearly you are an idiot. Or was it moron?

Either way, question not the great and powerful PY.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I said that God chose the Church, the elect... In Christ. God's choice was in Christ. Not in the elect themselves. You have a very poor understanding of election.

So do you ever flesh that out or are we supposed to understand it because you keep repeating it over and over?

It an entirely different "thing" to say that God chose individuals than it is to say that God chose a "group" of people. The focus is removed from the individual and placed upon the group. The Calvinist knows this. It is one of the reasons they go to great lengths to fight this truth. To lie about the Scriptures.

God's singular choice was in His Son. God's singular focus in the election of any group of people was His choice in Christ. God has something to "go by" when He made His choice. It certain wasn't the elect. It was His Son.

Do you understand any better now?

Not really. Sorry.

Are you being obtuse????

Yes. Clearly you are an idiot. Or was it moron?

Either way, question not the great and powerful PY.

That's right... That job should be left to the great and powerful rsc2a!!!

What a silly argument. Yes. I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. I haven't claimed I had any "power"..... yet you're attacking me as if I have!!!! Geesh!!!

 

[rsc2a]

Claiming anyone who disagrees with you is a raving moron is an implicit claim of power.

 

[FSSL]

Israel was more than just one person...... This is true regardless of a singular reference to a group. A "group" is more than one. It doesn't matter if its Israel or its the "elect". God work was for the group.

So... the grammar of Romans 8:30 doesn't matter to you anyways.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Claiming anyone who disagrees with you is a raving moron is an implicit claim of power.

Now its not. Its an opinion based on my belief. You're the proof!!!

I never called your sock a moron. I asked if he was being obtuse. You're such a drama queen!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Israel was more than just one person...... This is true regardless of a singular reference to a group. A "group" is more than one. It doesn't matter if its Israel or its the "elect". God work was for the group.

So... the grammar of Romans 8:30 doesn't matter to you anyways.

Yes. It does. What you said was wrong. Admit it.

 

[FSSL]

Admit that "those/them" are not plural?

You are out of your mind!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Admit that "those/them" are not plural?

You are out of your mind!

Whatever. You have yet to say why you included a reference to Israel as singular pronoun in your comments on Romans 8:30.... Care to say why you did this?

 

[FSSL]

Admit that "those/them" are not plural?

You are out of your mind!

Whatever. You have yet to say why you included a reference to Israel as singular pronoun in your comments on Romans 8:30.... Care to say why you did this?

The word "IF," in my post was clear enough. You need to reread.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Admit that "those/them" are not plural?

You are out of your mind!

Whatever. You have yet to say why you included a reference to Israel as singular pronoun in your comments on Romans 8:30.... Care to say why you did this?

The word "IF," in my post was clear enough. You need to reread.

Why did you use the word "if"? Why include the reference at all? Did it mean anything at all?

 

[FSSL]

SMH

 

[praise_yeshua]

SMH

Don't get dizzy.... Its not fun for elderly people.