Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes] when God says so

[Castor Muscular]

Contrary to what some folks on here say, logos and rhema are NOT totally interchangeable. 

Logos the total inspired Word of God
Rhema -- The Spoken Word

http://ati.iblp.org/ati/family/articles/concepts/rhema/

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bb920623.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/rhema-word.html

http://www.biblestudying.net/charismatic36.html

So, as I have said for a long time, the proper interpretation of Romans 10:17 is, "So then faith comes by hearing [ears to hear, or the ability to hear, comprehend and internalize], and hearing [ears to hear, or the ability to hear, comprehend and internalize] [comes] when God says so."

There are ample examples, especially in Deuteronomy, that show that it is God who gives us ears to hear.  God opens our eyes, ears, etc.  Until then, we are blind to the truth.  So then faith comes when our ears are opened, and the utterance (spoken word) of God opens our ears --- literally, it happens when God says it will happen, and not until. 

I know some of you will say, "Okay, so rhema means spoken word in this verse -- but what it REALLY means is hearing the preaching of the logos -- the written word."  And, in fact, rhema can refer to a spoken verse of the logos.  But if that were the only true interpretation of this verse, then nobody could be saved outside of hearing a preacher.  Surely you won't assert that, will you?  That God is unable to reveal to you the truth by reading his word?  He NEEDS someone to speak the words out loud? 

So, continue reading this verse as if it says, "Faith comes by hearing the logos of God".  You're wrong, but unable to admit it.

 

[prophet]

The spoken word = the written word = the made flesh word = the spirit of truth = the father.
English is easy.

Anishinabe

 

[Castor Muscular]

The spoken word = the written word = the made flesh word = the spirit of truth = the father.
English is easy.

Anishinabe

Greek is not easy, but if you learn it, you'll find out rhema != the written word.  Logos == the written word.  Rhema == the spoken word.  As I said, rhema can refer to a spoken verse from the logos, but it never refers to the complete revealed written word of God, which is logos. 

Follow the links, esp. the first.  Learn something. 

 

[rsc2a]

The spoken word = the written word

Maybe if you squint, turn your head and stretch, you might get something kind of looks like this, perhaps...

...I'll give you transcripts of speeches!

[quote author=prophet]the written word = the made flesh word[/quote]

Of course, here you have heresy.

[quote author=prophet]the made flesh word = the spirit of truth = the father[/quote]

And more heresy.

[quote author=prophet]English is easy.[/quote]

At times.

 

[Castor Muscular]

I was thinking more about this, and I'm baffled as to why some people resist this clear interpretation.  Think about what Paul is saying here.  He's describing the fact that Israel HEARD (as in heard the words) the Gospel, but did not understand or accept it. 

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Why did they not obey the gospel?  Because God did not [yet] open their eyes and ears to the Gospel.

17 So then [the reason they didn't respond in faith is because] faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God [when God gives the word to open their ears].

Why change the meaning of this verse?  This verse, as it is, SHOULD be a supreme comfort.  It means we don't have to be smart enough to have faith.  We don't have to be wise enough to have faith.  We don't have to be educated enough to have faith.  We don't have to be raised in a Christian or Jewish family and prepared for it in order to have faith.  We don't even need to have a properly functioning brain to have faith. 

God is in control of our faith, not us, not our abilities, not anything in us.  God opens our eyes to see and our ears to hear, we see and hear, and faith comes.  What could be a better arrangement than that? 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Castor Muscular]Why change the meaning of this verse?  This verse, as it is, SHOULD be a supreme comfort.  It means we don't have to be smart enough to have faith.  We don't have to be wise enough to have faith.  We don't have to be educated enough to have faith.  We don't have to be raised in a Christian or Jewish family and prepared for it in order to have faith.  We don't even need to have a properly functioning brain to have faith. 

God is in control of our faith, not us, not our abilities, not anything in us.  God opens our eyes to see and our ears to hear, we see and hear, and faith comes.  What could be a better arrangement than that?
[/quote]

But, but, but... we cannot control that!

 

[Castor Muscular]

[quote author=Castor Muscular]Why change the meaning of this verse?  This verse, as it is, SHOULD be a supreme comfort.  It means we don't have to be smart enough to have faith.  We don't have to be wise enough to have faith.  We don't have to be educated enough to have faith.  We don't have to be raised in a Christian or Jewish family and prepared for it in order to have faith.  We don't even need to have a properly functioning brain to have faith. 

God is in control of our faith, not us, not our abilities, not anything in us.  God opens our eyes to see and our ears to hear, we see and hear, and faith comes.  What could be a better arrangement than that?

But, but, but... we cannot control that!
[/quote]

Exactly.  It's insulting to people who want their preaching to be the catalyst to someone's faith.  Almost all Biblical error boils down to pride, doesn't it?

 

[prophet]

Many Israelites, as individuals believed.  Nothing has changed.  It is still the hearing of faith.
God gives us the faith.  He speaks of himself through light, nature, etc.
We resist.  We hear His Word, spoken or read, and the measure of faith in us, put there by our Creator, is enough to believe on the LORD. 
At some point we recieve Him, or finally reject Him....most of us, til death, have probation.
Maybe I read you wrong, CM, but it seems the preacher, sent with the gospel is ineffective unless he shares the Word.  A Bible, a thoroughly written track (sorry J.chick, not yours) a witness that includes the Word triggers the hearing of faith.  Because the Word is God.  So This passage in Rom.10 would seem to put the preacher in proper petspective.  He is only useful as a vehicle for delivery of the Word.  KISS.  Preach the Word, let God do His job, baptize confessors, disciple those who pick up their cross, send them out.
Much 'preaching' is undermining to the Gospel.  It isn't  the preacher, it is the message...the Word...that effects the change.  So I see Rom. 10 as a restraint on preaching, not an open liscense, and certainly not an opportunity to capture the 'laity'

Anishinabe

 

[ALAYMAN]

I believe the Prince of Preachers got it right....

III. Thirdly, THERE IS NO HEARING WITHOUT A PREACHER: "and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Therefore, let us preach.
Someone must make the truth known to men. They will not find out about the Savior unless they are told of him. The gospel will not be revealed to men by any supernatural agency; we must go with it. They cannot learn it without being taught it. No man will know the gospel unless somebody shall tell it to him, by word of mouth, or by the gift of a book or a tract, or by a letter, or by the open preaching of the Word. Somebody must make it known to the man, for how can he believe in him of whom he has not heard, and how can lie hear without a preacher?

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2327.htm


to the chagrin and conflagration of the internet pundits.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Many Israelites, as individuals believed. 

And many did not.  In this passage he's talking about those who did not. 

Maybe I read you wrong, CM, but it seems the preacher, sent with the gospel is ineffective unless he shares the Word. 

Paul's point here is that a preacher can preach the word until he's blue in the face, but the person will not gain faith from it until God says so.  "Did they hear?  Sure they did, but they did not obey the gospel.  So then [we conclude from this], faith comes by hearing, and hearing [the ability for that hearing to be effective] comes when God says so."

Again, for anything from God to be effective, God has to give us ears to hear and eyes to see and a mind to understand.  Just hearing the words or experiencing the experience (like in Deut 29) doesn't do the trick. 

Deut 29:2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

You'd think any normal person who saw God part the red sea would immediately have faith.  But that was not so, as is documented by all the naysayers.  It takes more than seeing great things or hearing the Gospel. 

 

[T-Bone]

It takes both "preaching" and "hearing".  Preaching is in no way just for the clergy to do...and no one can hear unless the Holy Spirit open their spiritual ears to hear. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

It takes both "preaching" and "hearing".  Preaching is in no way just for the clergy to do...and no one can hear unless the Holy Spirit open their spiritual ears to hear.

Exactly.  And that's what the verse says.  What the verse does NOT say is "Faith comes by hearing the word [the preached logos] of God", which is how many preachers read it and teach it.  They turn a two-step process into one-step, and make faith dependent solely upon audibly hearing preaching. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

It takes both "preaching" and "hearing".  Preaching is in no way just for the clergy to do...and no one can hear unless the Holy Spirit open their spiritual ears to hear.

Exactly.  And that's what the verse says.  What the verse does NOT say is "Faith comes by hearing the word [the preached logos] of God", which is how many preachers read it and teach it.  They turn a two-step process into one-step, and make faith dependent solely upon audibly hearing preaching.

It says what it says....faith comes by hearing....hearing the word of God...not by hearing thunder....a pop song...
an explosion...a reality TV episode....

 

[Castor Muscular]

It takes both "preaching" and "hearing".  Preaching is in no way just for the clergy to do...and no one can hear unless the Holy Spirit open their spiritual ears to hear.

Exactly.  And that's what the verse says.  What the verse does NOT say is "Faith comes by hearing the word [the preached logos] of God", which is how many preachers read it and teach it.  They turn a two-step process into one-step, and make faith dependent solely upon audibly hearing preaching.

It says what it says....faith comes by hearing....hearing the word of God...not by hearing thunder....a pop song...
an explosion...a reality TV episode....

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!  And you call yourself a pastor/preacher. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

It takes both "preaching" and "hearing".  Preaching is in no way just for the clergy to do...and no one can hear unless the Holy Spirit open their spiritual ears to hear.

Exactly.  And that's what the verse says.  What the verse does NOT say is "Faith comes by hearing the word [the preached logos] of God", which is how many preachers read it and teach it.  They turn a two-step process into one-step, and make faith dependent solely upon audibly hearing preaching.

It says what it says....faith comes by hearing....hearing the word of God...not by hearing thunder....a pop song...
an explosion...a reality TV episode....

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!  And you call yourself a pastor/preacher.

And, I get paid! That really bothers you, doesn't it?  ;D
The verse, in whatever version you choose, says what it says...not what you want it to say....your best option is to declare it "out of the canon'!

 

[Castor Muscular]

It takes both "preaching" and "hearing".  Preaching is in no way just for the clergy to do...and no one can hear unless the Holy Spirit open their spiritual ears to hear.

Exactly.  And that's what the verse says.  What the verse does NOT say is "Faith comes by hearing the word [the preached logos] of God", which is how many preachers read it and teach it.  They turn a two-step process into one-step, and make faith dependent solely upon audibly hearing preaching.

It says what it says....faith comes by hearing....hearing the word of God...not by hearing thunder....a pop song...
an explosion...a reality TV episode....

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!  And you call yourself a pastor/preacher.

And, I get paid! That really bothers you, doesn't it?  ;D
The verse, in whatever version you choose, says what it says...not what you want it to say....your best option is to declare it "out of the canon'!

It only bothers me because I feel sorry for your congregation.  They have a pastor who would rather think he's right than know the truth of the word.  You don't divide the word of truth.  You subtract it. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

It takes both "preaching" and "hearing".  Preaching is in no way just for the clergy to do...and no one can hear unless the Holy Spirit open their spiritual ears to hear.

Exactly.  And that's what the verse says.  What the verse does NOT say is "Faith comes by hearing the word [the preached logos] of God", which is how many preachers read it and teach it.  They turn a two-step process into one-step, and make faith dependent solely upon audibly hearing preaching.

It says what it says....faith comes by hearing....hearing the word of God...not by hearing thunder....a pop song...
an explosion...a reality TV episode....

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!  And you call yourself a pastor/preacher.

And, I get paid! That really bothers you, doesn't it?  ;D
The verse, in whatever version you choose, says what it says...not what you want it to say....your best option is to declare it "out of the canon'!

It only bothers me because I feel sorry for your congregation.  They have a pastor who would rather think he's right than know the truth of the word.  You don't divide the word of truth. You subtract it.

Oh! The irony!


Faith comes by hearing.
Specifically by hearing the Word of God/Christ...not hearing generic noise or sounds...is the point.


New International Version
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

New Living Translation
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

English Standard Version
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

New American Standard Bible
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

King James Bible
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

International Standard Version
Consequently, faith results from listening, and listening results through the word of the Messiah.

NET Bible
Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Therefore faith is from the hearing ear, and the hearing ear is from the word of God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
So faith comes from hearing the message, and the message that is heard is what Christ spoke.

King James 2000 Bible
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

American King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

American Standard Version
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.

Darby Bible Translation
So faith then is by a report, but the report by God's word.

English Revised Version
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 

[Castor Muscular]

You don't actually read posts, do you?  You just react to them, I guess. 

Except for a couple weirdo translations, they all say what I'm saying.  There are two steps.

Step one:  Faith comes by hearing

Now, how do you get hearing?

Step two:  Hearing comes by the word [rhema, utterance] of God

You are turning it into one step.  Faith comes by hearing the word of God.  Bad pastor.  Bad.  Go to your room.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

You don't actually read posts, do you?  You just react to them, I guess. 

Except for a couple weirdo translations, they all say what I'm saying.  There are two steps.

Step one:  Faith comes by hearing

Now, how do you get hearing?

Step two:  Hearing comes by the word [rhema, utterance] of God

You are turning it into one step.  Faith comes by hearing the word of God.  Bad pastor.  Bad.  Go to your room.

It says what it says....1. faith comes by hearing....2. hearing the word of God...not by hearing thunder....a pop song... 
an explosion...a reality TV episode....

 

[Castor Muscular]

It says what it says....1. faith comes by hearing....2. hearing BY the word of God...not by hearing thunder....a pop song... 
an explosion...a reality TV episode....

You left out the word "by", which changes the whole meaning.  You wrongly subtract the word of God.