Faith of our fathers...does doctrine rank high in your prioritization?

[ALAYMAN]

Had a visitor at our church recently who had been a young girl 15 years ago when she last attended our church.  In chatting with her I discovered she was attending a "holiness" type church (Arminian) because it is where her brother attends (he also was at our church in the same timeframe as she had been years ago).  I encountered the same sort of situation over the summer when a man who had been training for the ministry at Vineyard's OBC quit there out of (somewhat merited) bitterness and when he landed on his feet he was pastoring a "holiness" (Arminian) church.  It dawned on me (though I really already knew it) that people choose churches to attend for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is social familiarity with those in attendance.  Though the reason for that is self-evident, I still believe that if I was looking for a church that there are certain core tenets that would be deal breakers for me even if I knew and had great affinity for the people at a given church, such as eternal security (among other doctrinal issues). 

With that in mind, do you still attend a church of like faith as the type you attended in your youth?  If not, is your choice of church based more on the social aspect of church, or did you have a change of heart about the core doctrinal teachings you were raised with?

Put another way, if you were currently looking for a church, what criteria would be your top priorities in your search?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

With that in mind, do you still attend a church of like faith as the type you attended in your youth?  If not, is your choice of church based more on the social aspect of church, or did you have a change of heart about the core doctrinal teachings you were raised with?

I do not attend a church of like faith in which I grew up. In fact, I do not attend a church of existing "like faith".

The social aspect is a HUGE aspect of it for me, primarily the idea of small groups. With the group I attend meets, we can discuss weaknesses and differences without judgement (yet accountability). We struggle through life together, following Jesus even without "core" agreements of both spiritual and political stripe.

Put another way, if you were currently looking for a church, what criteria would be your top priorities in your search?

How is the church impacting the community in a material way? How do the people of the church treat people with different doctrinal, political and social ideals? Are the people of the church accepting of people who may have "issues", even where there is disagreement with said "issues"? (ex. homeless, addicts, divorcees, homosexuals, etc.)

I want to be where disciples are created and encouraged and loved. "Herein will they know you are My disciples, if you love one another."

I want to be where people do justice, love mercy and walk with God.

 

[Tim]

Had a visitor at our church recently who had been a young girl 15 years ago when she last attended our church.  In chatting with her I discovered she was attending a "holiness" type church (Arminian) because it is where her brother attends (he also was at our church in the same timeframe as she had been years ago).  I encountered the same sort of situation over the summer when a man who had been training for the ministry at Vineyard's OBC quit there out of (somewhat merited) bitterness and when he landed on his feet he was pastoring a "holiness" (Arminian) church.  It dawned on me (though I really already knew it) that people choose churches to attend for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is social familiarity with those in attendance.  Though the reason for that is self-evident, I still believe that if I was looking for a church that there are certain core tenets that would be deal breakers for me even if I knew and had great affinity for the people at a given church, such as eternal security (among other doctrinal issues). 

With that in mind, do you still attend a church of like faith as the type you attended in your youth?  If not, is your choice of church based more on the social aspect of church, or did you have a change of heart about the core doctrinal teachings you were raised with?

Put another way, if you were currently looking for a church, what criteria would be your top priorities in your search?

As a child my parents attended Pentecostal and then later on Free Will Baptist Churches. For my dad he seemed to select a Church based on their believing a Christian could lose salvation.

After I got married my wife and I agreed we would attend independent Baptist Churches for the most part. I think most of my Church life has been avoiding Churches similar to what I attended as a Child but also having that similar old time, hell-fire preaching, feeling with traditional hymns, lovable older folks, and a pastor who was reachable as a friend. I think it would be fair to say my behavior on this forum clearly displayed my spiritual seriousness for a season - and that left me unable to clearly know a good Church from a bad. That said, I think God used our time in every fellowship of believers for Good.

Now I crave a Church that teaches doctrine and has a selection of members that take loving God seriously. I want a Church were the preaching of truth makes our faith come alive - not sermons filled with commands with little substance. And I would love a Church with at least one family attending similar to ours (we have 6 children, home school, etc). I would like a traditional Church in style, but not anti-CCM in practice. I enjoy singing hymns.

 

[ALAYMAN]

With that in mind, do you still attend a church of like faith as the type you attended in your youth?  If not, is your choice of church based more on the social aspect of church, or did you have a change of heart about the core doctrinal teachings you were raised with?

I do not attend a church of like faith in which I grew up. In fact, I do not attend a church of existing "like faith".

The social aspect is a HUGE aspect of it for me, primarily the idea of small groups. With the group I attend meets, we can discuss weaknesses and differences without judgement (yet accountability). We struggle through life together, following Jesus even without "core" agreements of both spiritual and political stripe.

Put another way, if you were currently looking for a church, what criteria would be your top priorities in your search?

How is the church impacting the community in a material way? How do the people of the church treat people with different doctrinal, political and social ideals? Are the people of the church accepting of people who may have "issues", even where there is disagreement with said "issues"? (ex. homeless, addicts, divorcees, homosexuals, etc.)

I want to be where disciples are created and encouraged and loved. "Herein will they know you are My disciples, if you love one another."

I want to be where people do justice, love mercy and walk with God.

When you say "accepting of ....<various groups of immorality>" do you mean that the church is not to exercise discipline of any kind?  Secondly, regarding "Herein will they know you are My disciples", is it not "loving" to tell people the truth (seasoned with grace).  And lastly, isn't the purpose of the church (generally speaking) to gather with other believers in unity and fellowship with one another around the person of Christ?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

When you say "accepting of ....<various groups of immorality>" do you mean that the church is not to exercise discipline of any kind?

Not saying that at all.

  Secondly, regarding "Herein will they know you are My disciples", is it not "loving" to tell people the truth (seasoned with grace). 

Yes it is. Hence, the importance of intimacy in a small group setting where reproving one another is a part of the community process.

And lastly, isn't the purpose of the church (generally speaking) to gather with other believers in unity and fellowship with one another around the person of Christ?

Yes. Which is why I would look for a community that follows what Jesus teaches, not necessarily structured after Paul's (assumed) dynamic.

 

[ALAYMAN]

When you say "accepting of ....<various groups of immorality>" do you mean that the church is not to exercise discipline of any kind?

Not saying that at all.

  Secondly, regarding "Herein will they know you are My disciples", is it not "loving" to tell people the truth (seasoned with grace). 

Yes it is. Hence, the importance of intimacy in a small group setting where reproving one another is a part of the community process.

And lastly, isn't the purpose of the church (generally speaking) to gather with other believers in unity and fellowship with one another around the person of Christ?

Yes. Which is why I would look for a community that follows what Jesus teaches, not necessarily structured after Paul's (assumed) dynamic.

Thanks for the clarifications.  I know you aren't (theologically) in alignment with the group you worship with on some serious issues.  Just curious, do they know of your dislike of Pauline doctrine, as well as your unorthodox (or, ahem, heretical ) Christology?  If so, are you afforded opportunities to talk about those issues in class or small group discussions?

 

[Bruh]

Had a visitor at our church recently who had been a young girl 15 years ago when she last attended our church.  In chatting with her I discovered she was attending a "holiness" type church (Arminian) because it is where her brother attends (he also was at our church in the same timeframe as she had been years ago).  I encountered the same sort of situation over the summer when a man who had been training for the ministry at Vineyard's OBC quit there out of (somewhat merited) bitterness and when he landed on his feet he was pastoring a "holiness" (Arminian) church.  It dawned on me (though I really already knew it) that people choose churches to attend for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is social familiarity with those in attendance.  Though the reason for that is self-evident, I still believe that if I was looking for a church that there are certain core tenets that would be deal breakers for me even if I knew and had great affinity for the people at a given church, such as eternal security (among other doctrinal issues). 

With that in mind, do you still attend a church of like faith as the type you attended in your youth?  If not, is your choice of church based more on the social aspect of church, or did you have a change of heart about the core doctrinal teachings you were raised with?

Put another way, if you were currently looking for a church, what criteria would be your top priorities in your search?

My experience tells me, the pastor and I  could agree on 100 percent on cardinal doctrine join the church and three months later find out that he is the most controlling pastor in the entire universe.

My point is this, you really don't know the pastor and how he pastors the members until maybe a year or more, or much much sooner.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Thanks for the clarifications.  I know you aren't (theologically) in alignment with the group you worship with on some serious issues.  Just curious, do they know of your dislike of Pauline doctrine, as well as your unorthodox (or, ahem, heretical ) Christology?  If so, are you afforded opportunities to talk about those issues in class or small group discussions?

I do not bring up differences in the church or SS class setting whatsoever. Small group (6 married couples), I have and I do. One of our co-pastors* hosts the group and we've had personal chats outside the group setting as well. Others in the group know I differ and they afford me freedom of conscience just as I allow them freedom of conscience. I am allowed to have and express differences of doctrinal positions but I choose not to express it unless asked directly. I will not make my positions a point of contention. They are my brethren who strive to follow Christ as I do so I choose to unite on points with which we agree rather than to assault them with my divergent beliefs.

My wife and kids hold to the traditional Evangelical positions and I never try to talk them out of their own faith. Granted, I have discussed my positions, but never infer they take on what I hold to. When discussions take place, I point them to Jesus and tell them to do what He teaches. So like to keep harmony within my family is very important, so is keeping harmony with my brethren with whom I serve and worship. That is more important to me than trying to prove I am right.

Now this forum, that is another matter.

*(We have 2 co-pastors: one preaches and arranges the contemporary service and the other, our traditional service.)

 

[Smellin Coffee]

If so, are you afforded opportunities to talk about those issues in class or small group discussions?

One more thing. Differences of opinions are encouraged at the church I attend and people are encouraged to speak up. Our church is a participant of the

on Wednesday nights where topics are discussed both at tables and as a group. Topics aren't generally about doctrine, per se, but many times discussion has been diverted to it. In November, we did a discussion about "New Atheism" and actually had a couple agnostics and atheists participate in the discussion. Neither side was about proselytizing the other but rather about trying to understand viewpoints from "the other side". Of course rules are mentioned every week up front and an awareness that opinions expressed might not be that of the church or its leadership, but there have been some very interesting discussions without ever becoming heated.

Anyway, our church is pretty free about individuality in beliefs and even expression and I haven't been treated with any disrespect or felt devalued by those who oppose my belief system. Differences are expected so people can disagree and feel accepted and even respected.

 

[ALAYMAN]

If so, are you afforded opportunities to talk about those issues in class or small group discussions?

One more thing. Differences of opinions are encouraged at the church I attend and people are encouraged to speak up. Our church is a participant of the

on Wednesday nights where topics are discussed both at tables and as a group. Topics aren't generally about doctrine, per se, but many times discussion has been diverted to it. In November, we did a discussion about "New Atheism" and actually had a couple agnostics and atheists participate in the discussion. Neither side was about proselytizing the other but rather about trying to understand viewpoints from "the other side". Of course rules are mentioned every week up front and an awareness that opinions expressed might not be that of the church or its leadership, but there have been some very interesting discussions without ever becoming heated.

Anyway, our church is pretty free about individuality in beliefs and even expression and I haven't been treated with any disrespect or felt devalued by those who oppose my belief system. Differences are expected so people can disagree and feel accepted and even respected.

I think that allowing voices of variation may be helpful if done the right way, but if there are sheep among the discussion I can't help but feel a protective role as somewhat an elder to make sure that those who would lead the na?ve away from true teaching.  In a group setting there are bound to be people who could be taken into danger and heresy by sophistry.  It's the same guarded approach I would use with not exercising my liberty (assuming I have awareness of their weakness)  in the presence of those who are prone to stumble.

 

[Walt]

Had a visitor at our church recently who had been a young girl 15 years ago when she last attended our church.  In chatting with her I discovered she was attending a "holiness" type church (Arminian) because it is where her brother attends (he also was at our church in the same timeframe as she had been years ago).  I encountered the same sort of situation over the summer when a man who had been training for the ministry at Vineyard's OBC quit there out of (somewhat merited) bitterness and when he landed on his feet he was pastoring a "holiness" (Arminian) church.  It dawned on me (though I really already knew it) that people choose churches to attend for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is social familiarity with those in attendance.  Though the reason for that is self-evident, I still believe that if I was looking for a church that there are certain core tenets that would be deal breakers for me even if I knew and had great affinity for the people at a given church, such as eternal security (among other doctrinal issues). 

With that in mind, do you still attend a church of like faith as the type you attended in your youth?  If not, is your choice of church based more on the social aspect of church, or did you have a change of heart about the core doctrinal teachings you were raised with?

Put another way, if you were currently looking for a church, what criteria would be your top priorities in your search?

I wasn't in church as a child, but when I began attending as a teen, the basic tenets have not changed, although there is probably some differentiation somewhere along the line.

To me, doctrine is of primary importance, but there are other considerations.

 

[Walt]

If so, are you afforded opportunities to talk about those issues in class or small group discussions?

One more thing. Differences of opinions are encouraged at the church I attend and people are encouraged to speak up. Our church is a participant of the

on Wednesday nights where topics are discussed both at tables and as a group. Topics aren't generally about doctrine, per se, but many times discussion has been diverted to it. In November, we did a discussion about "New Atheism" and actually had a couple agnostics and atheists participate in the discussion. Neither side was about proselytizing the other but rather about trying to understand viewpoints from "the other side". Of course rules are mentioned every week up front and an awareness that opinions expressed might not be that of the church or its leadership, but there have been some very interesting discussions without ever becoming heated.

Anyway, our church is pretty free about individuality in beliefs and even expression and I haven't been treated with any disrespect or felt devalued by those who oppose my belief system. Differences are expected so people can disagree and feel accepted and even respected.

I think that allowing voices of variation may be helpful if done the right way, but if there are sheep among the discussion I can't help but feel a protective role as somewhat an elder to make sure that those who would lead the na?ve away from true teaching.  In a group setting there are bound to be people who could be taken into danger and heresy by sophistry.  It's the same guarded approach I would use with not exercising my liberty (assuming I have awareness of their weakness)  in the presence of those who are prone to stumble.

I think it is wonderful that people are encouraged to speak up, but "wrong" views of Scripture need to be gently rebuked.  Otherwise, people are just pooling ignorance.  As Alayman said, it's hard to get it right and also protect doctrine.