Fake Media Stories

[Smellin Coffee]

Questions for Smellin as to his personal religion:

Sorry about the late response. End of year stuff at work. Really tied up last couple weeks and probably next week as well.

Was Jesus virgin born?
And, why does that matter.

Personally, I do believe He was born of a virgin. There is no soterioligal significance so in that aspect, it doesn't matter.

Did Jesus live a perfect, sinless life?
And why does that matter?

Yes. I believe because it was through Him the final covenant was made and unlike with Abraham and Moses, the covenant He fulfilled was for Gentiles as well. This was done at the Last Supper, not the cross, IMHO. The new covenant was perfect because He was perfect.

Was Jesus death necessary or just a whim of the cultural times?
Why does that matter?

Yes, He needed to be publicly executed to bring significance to His resurrection. He also needed to be seen publicly forgiving those same people who were literally in the act of murdering Him to show we are capable of forgiving those who wrong us, even in the worst of circumstances. He is our example in loving our enemies, even to the most horrific of deaths.

Do you believe that the veil in the temple was torn at His crucifixion?
What is the significance of this, if any?

Yes, I believe the veil was torn. I believe it was a portent of things to come: the temple's impending destruction and the literal departure of God's presence (Shekinah) from the Holy of Holies (which was fulfilled when Titus had the temple destroyed for good).

Was the resurrection necessary?
Why or why not?

Yes. A public resurrection after a public death proved He was who He said He was: the Son of God. It verified the words He taught while on earth were from God and those were the same words that were to be given from the disciples to the world to come, making those words of utmost importance to the Christ-follower.

I have answered my questions with all sincerity. Several times (not just in this thread) you keep dodging the one sincere question I ask of you.

So do you include Matthew 6:14-15 in your salvation message?

If you don't, why not in light of the fact Jesus makes it crystal clear about non-forgiveness being a hindrance to our receiving God's forgiveness?

 

[Jim Jones]

Questions for Smellin as to his personal religion:

Sorry about the late response. End of year stuff at work. Really tied up last couple weeks and probably next week as well.

Was Jesus virgin born?
And, why does that matter.

Personally, I do believe He was born of a virgin. There is no soterioligal significance so in that aspect, it doesn't matter.

Did Jesus live a perfect, sinless life?
And why does that matter?

Yes. I believe because it was through Him the final covenant was made and unlike with Abraham and Moses, the covenant He fulfilled was for Gentiles as well. This was done at the Last Supper, not the cross, IMHO. The new covenant was perfect because He was perfect.

Was Jesus death necessary or just a whim of the cultural times?
Why does that matter?

Yes, He needed to be publicly executed to bring significance to His resurrection. He also needed to be seen publicly forgiving those same people who were literally in the act of murdering Him to show we are capable of forgiving those who wrong us, even in the worst of circumstances.

Do you believe that the veil in the temple was torn at His crucifixion?
What is the significance of this, if any?

Yes, I believe the veil was torn. I believe it was a portent of things to come: the temple's impending destruction and the literal departure of God's presence (Shekinah) from the Holy of Holies (which was fulfilled when Titus had the temple destroyed for good).

Was the resurrection necessary?
Why or why not?

Yes. A public resurrection after a public death proved He was who He said He was: the Son of God. It verified the words He taught while on earth were from God and those were the same words that were to be given from the disciples to the world to come, making those words of utmost importance to the Christ-follower.

I have answered my questions with all sincerity. Several times (not just in this thread) you keep dodging the one sincere question I ask of you.

So do you include Matthew 6:14-15 in your salvation message?

If you don't, why not when Jesus makes it crystal clear God about a hindrance to our receiving God's forgiveness?

He is and was God.

Clearly you disagree.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

We believe both. They are all his words and they all work together.

Remember God used men to record the red words also, and he used scribes to copy them for us.
I'm "sure" the scribes hated using their expensive "red" ink when they did their work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Let me say, I know where you are coming from because that is how I believed for 45 years. I'm no stranger to mainstream Protestantism.

That being said, you have yet to show me where II Timothy 3:16-17 is referring to the 66-book canon, specifically in light of what Paul told Timothy in the previous verses:

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Which parts of the New Testament did Timothy learn "from childhood"?

Also, what makes you think that scribes were always pure in their work? Seems Jeremiah stated "they turned the law of God into a lie" (Jeremiah 8:8):

How can you say, ?We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Questions for Smellin as to his personal religion:

Sorry about the late response. End of year stuff at work. Really tied up last couple weeks and probably next week as well.

Was Jesus virgin born?
And, why does that matter.

Personally, I do believe He was born of a virgin. There is no soterioligal significance so in that aspect, it doesn't matter.

Did Jesus live a perfect, sinless life?
And why does that matter?

Yes. I believe because it was through Him the final covenant was made and unlike with Abraham and Moses, the covenant He fulfilled was for Gentiles as well. This was done at the Last Supper, not the cross, IMHO. The new covenant was perfect because He was perfect.

Was Jesus death necessary or just a whim of the cultural times?
Why does that matter?

Yes, He needed to be publicly executed to bring significance to His resurrection. He also needed to be seen publicly forgiving those same people who were literally in the act of murdering Him to show we are capable of forgiving those who wrong us, even in the worst of circumstances.

Do you believe that the veil in the temple was torn at His crucifixion?
What is the significance of this, if any?

Yes, I believe the veil was torn. I believe it was a portent of things to come: the temple's impending destruction and the literal departure of God's presence (Shekinah) from the Holy of Holies (which was fulfilled when Titus had the temple destroyed for good).

Was the resurrection necessary?
Why or why not?

Yes. A public resurrection after a public death proved He was who He said He was: the Son of God. It verified the words He taught while on earth were from God and those were the same words that were to be given from the disciples to the world to come, making those words of utmost importance to the Christ-follower.

I have answered my questions with all sincerity. Several times (not just in this thread) you keep dodging the one sincere question I ask of you.

So do you include Matthew 6:14-15 in your salvation message?

If you don't, why not when Jesus makes it crystal clear God about a hindrance to our receiving God's forgiveness?

He is and was God.

Clearly you disagree.

I believe what Jesus said about Himself.

 

[Tatterdemalion]

He is and was God.

Clearly you disagree.

I believe what Jesus said about Himself.

I know I usually am the one who agrees with your posts, but:

"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 14:7-10

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 14:11

I know how many times He said that He was taking commands from the Father, but I couldn't simply ignore these.

 

[Jim Jones]

Questions for Smellin as to his personal religion:

Sorry about the late response. End of year stuff at work. Really tied up last couple weeks and probably next week as well.

Was Jesus virgin born?
And, why does that matter.

Personally, I do believe He was born of a virgin. There is no soterioligal significance so in that aspect, it doesn't matter.

Did Jesus live a perfect, sinless life?
And why does that matter?

Yes. I believe because it was through Him the final covenant was made and unlike with Abraham and Moses, the covenant He fulfilled was for Gentiles as well. This was done at the Last Supper, not the cross, IMHO. The new covenant was perfect because He was perfect.

Was Jesus death necessary or just a whim of the cultural times?
Why does that matter?

Yes, He needed to be publicly executed to bring significance to His resurrection. He also needed to be seen publicly forgiving those same people who were literally in the act of murdering Him to show we are capable of forgiving those who wrong us, even in the worst of circumstances.

Do you believe that the veil in the temple was torn at His crucifixion?
What is the significance of this, if any?

Yes, I believe the veil was torn. I believe it was a portent of things to come: the temple's impending destruction and the literal departure of God's presence (Shekinah) from the Holy of Holies (which was fulfilled when Titus had the temple destroyed for good).

Was the resurrection necessary?
Why or why not?

Yes. A public resurrection after a public death proved He was who He said He was: the Son of God. It verified the words He taught while on earth were from God and those were the same words that were to be given from the disciples to the world to come, making those words of utmost importance to the Christ-follower.

I have answered my questions with all sincerity. Several times (not just in this thread) you keep dodging the one sincere question I ask of you.

So do you include Matthew 6:14-15 in your salvation message?

If you don't, why not when Jesus makes it crystal clear God about a hindrance to our receiving God's forgiveness?

He is and was God.

Clearly you disagree.

I believe what Jesus said about Himself.

If you have seen me, you have seen the Father?

Was John speaking off the cuff when he declared Jesus as God?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I know I usually am the one who agrees with your posts, but:

"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 14:7-10

Did he mean that everyone who saw him walking around on earth had seen the Father? Key phrase "...from now on..." meaning even though they had seen Jesus beforehand, they had not seen the Father. Jesus said other unbelieving Jews "saw" Him but not the Father:

John 5:37

The Father himself, who sent me, has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form.

Jesus said nobody has ever seen God:

John 8:38

No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

So Jesus claims to "declare" God, not "be" God.

John 6:45-46

Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me. Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father.

Who do you imagine had seen God? No man, but rather the One who is from God.

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 14:11

Look at the verse before this one for context:

Don?t you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father living in me does his works.

Rather than claiming to be God Himself, Jesus said that He spoke the words of God his Father, and thus in this manner the Father could be seen in and through Him. This is fulfillment of the prophecy from Deut. 18:15-29:

Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; according to all that thou desire of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

So Jesus was claiming to be fulfillment of the prophecy because He reflected God's character and God's works were performed through Him.

So if "no man has seen God" that would include those who looked at the physical body of Jesus while He walked the earth.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

If you have seen me, you have seen the Father?

Was John speaking off the cuff when he declared Jesus as God?

I addressed this with my previous post. John didn't claim Jesus was God but rather God worked through Him. Jesus never said He Himself was the Father.

One more point to add. The argument that since God is spirit with no physical body, Jesus was saying since the Spirit of the Father was in Him, He was literally the physical appearance of the Father. This would mean the 12 disciples were God also:

Matthew 10:20

For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Obviously this is a silly notion so it puts into context Jesus was talking about seeing God work through Him, not a literal seeing the Father because He was both the Father and the Son.

 

[Jim Jones]

John didn't claim Jesus was God but rather God worked through Him. Jesus never said He Himself was the Father.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus is God.

Said by John.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'

Did Jesus plagiarize Moses testimony?

 

[FSSL]

^^ boom!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Smellin Coffee]

John didn't claim Jesus was God but rather God worked through Him. Jesus never said He Himself was the Father.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus is God.

Said by John.

The "Word" is "logos" which throughout the entire book of John was NOT talking about Jesus, but about the promises, nature and character of God. Those promises, nature and character of God was fleshed out on earth through Jesus.

Replace the word "word" with "promise":

"The promise became flesh and dwelt among us..."

Gives an entirely new viewpoint. The fulfillment of the promise came in a human body. In the same way, the fulfillment of God's logos also came in a human body. Just as Jesus was not the promise itself but embodied the fulfillment of it, Jesus was not the logos itself but embodied the fulfillment of it.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'

Did Jesus plagiarize Moses testimony?

First, you yourself correctly show the context. John mentioned Jesus' conversation with ABRAHAM, not Moses. To bring "I am" as Abrahamic brings it out of context. Nowhere in the passage is Moses ever referred to.

Second, ?I am? was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The phrase ?I am? occurs many other times in the New Testament, and from what I understand (and I am NOT a Greek scholar) is often translated as ?I am he? or some equivalent (?I am he??Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. ?It is I??Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. ?I am the one I claim to be??John 8:24 and 28.).

Third, Abraham had the gift of prophecy which was understood by the Jews. Hebrews 11 tells how Abraham foresaw the heavenly city. John clearly indicates where John foresaw Jesus' coming. Why? Because it was pre-determined before Abraham "saw" it. So yes, Jesus and His coming to earth in the flesh was foreseen by Abraham because it was in God's eye before Abraham.

Fourth, "I am" in Exodus meant something else in Hebrew. Benson Commentary explains it like this:

That he is eternal and unchangeable: the same yesterday, to-day, and for ever. For the words are with equal propriety rendered, I WILL BE WHAT I AM, or, I AM WHAT I WILL BE, or, I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE.

So "I am" in John is not equivalent with the Hebrew context.

Fifth, why would Jesus run away in the passage if He was claiming to be God?

Jesus: I am God!

Jews: No you are not! We will kill you!

Jesus to His disciples: Let's run and hide! I don't want these guys to kill Me!

His running away in and of itself within context would show He was not claiming to be God in this particular passage. He had other means by which to disperse the crowd (like in the story of the woman caught in adultery) including having angels protect Him. Being God, couldn't He have made the rocks they would throw bounce off of Himself to prove His alleged claim?

The point is, He wasn't claiming to be God but rather from God. The text in its entirety fleshes that out.

Jump to His trial at the end of His earthly life. The High Priest asked Jesus very clearly if he was "the Christ" because that is what the Jews knew Jesus was claiming to be. He did not ask if Jesus was claiming to be God Himself which would have been the ultimate in blasphemy to the Jews.  When the Jews heard Jesus? clear answer (?Yes, it is as you say?), they still accused him of blasphemy and said, ?He is worthy of death? (Matt. 26:66). This is the same reaction the Jews had at the time of John's record, the only difference being the High Priest could turn Him over to the Romans to be killed instead of having the Jews stone Him to death.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Is it just me or has smellin drifted into heresy?
Hammond really did a number on you, smellin...evidently your bible degree was useless or you just didn't pay attention.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Is it just me or has smellin drifted into heresy?
Hammond really did a number on you, smellin...evidently your bible degree was useless or you just didn't pay attention.

Orthodoxy does that to people.

Are you going to keep avoiding my question(s) about Jesus' message on the forgiveness or are you going to answer it?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Is it just me or has smellin drifted into heresy?
Hammond really did a number on you, smellin...evidently your bible degree was useless or you just didn't pay attention.

Orthodoxy does that to people.

Are you going to keep avoiding my question(s) about Jesus' message on the forgiveness or are you going to answer it?

What is the question?
But you do understand that I am not on your level.
You have seen, understood and know what has bypassed 2000 years of scholars, theologians and Christians....but to you the truth has been revealed and it has been understood by you alone.
You are the (singular) elite!

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Is it just me or has smellin drifted into heresy?
Hammond really did a number on you, smellin...evidently your bible degree was useless or you just didn't pay attention.

Orthodoxy does that to people.

Are you going to keep avoiding my question(s) about Jesus' message on the forgiveness or are you going to answer it?

What is the question?

So do you include Matthew 6:14-15 in your salvation message?

If you don't, why not in light of the fact Jesus makes it crystal clear about non-forgiveness being a hindrance to our receiving God's forgiveness? 

  But you do understand that I am not on your level.

I never realized faith was a "tiered" program. Although Evangelicals DO tend to treat it like an American pyramid program, recruiting others to recruit others to recruit others into like belief...

You have seen, understood and know what has bypassed 2000 years of scholars, theologians and Christians....but to you the truth has been revealed and it has been understood by you alone.
You are the (singular) elite!

With your sarcasm, you again lie about my motives.

But biblical Pharisees also had centuries of scholars and theologians and still their orthodoxy was wrong. Age and adherence of orthodoxy does not truth make.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Is it just me or has smellin drifted into heresy?
Hammond really did a number on you, smellin...evidently your bible degree was useless or you just didn't pay attention.

Orthodoxy does that to people.

Are you going to keep avoiding my question(s) about Jesus' message on the forgiveness or are you going to answer it?

What is the question?

So do you include Matthew 6:14-15 in your salvation message?

If you don't, why not in light of the fact Jesus makes it crystal clear about non-forgiveness being a hindrance to our receiving God's forgiveness? 

  But you do understand that I am not on your level.

I never realized faith was a "tiered" program. Although Evangelicals DO tend to treat it like an American pyramid program, recruiting others to recruit others to recruit others into like belief...

You have seen, understood and know what has bypassed 2000 years of scholars, theologians and Christians....but to you the truth has been revealed and it has been understood by you alone.
You are the (singular) elite!

With your sarcasm, you again lie about my motives.

But biblical Pharisees also had centuries of scholars and theologians and still their orthodoxy was wrong. Age and adherence of orthodoxy does not truth make.

I do consider Jesus statement on forgiveness in my soteriology.
But again, I'm no Smellin a crock!

 

[Tatterdemalion]

Fifth, why would Jesus run away in the passage if He was claiming to be God?

Jesus: I am God!

Jews: No you are not! We will kill you!

Jesus to His disciples: Let's run and hide! I don't want these guys to kill Me!

His running away in and of itself within context would show He was not claiming to be God in this particular passage. He had other means by which to disperse the crowd (like in the story of the woman caught in adultery) including having angels protect Him. Being God, couldn't He have made the rocks they would throw bounce off of Himself to prove His alleged claim?

Yet later on, He knocked over a band of armed men with just the words of His mouth, and then restored severed flesh. We shouldn't expect our logic to always mesh with God's plans

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I do consider Jesus statement on forgiveness in my soteriology.

So you do verbally incorporate the principle if not the actual reference of Matthew 6:15 each time you present the Gospel to someone?

 

[Jim Jones]

If Jesus wasn't God. I have no faith whatsoever.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I do consider Jesus statement on forgiveness in my soteriology.

So you do verbally incorporate the principle if not the actual reference of Matthew 6:15 each time you present the Gospel to someone?

When I present the gospel, I present the gospel...not a lesson on soteriology .
What do you do?
How do you present your 'gospel' of positive reinforcement to someone?