I find myself applauding the above post.
First my alma mater (TTU) now Clearwater
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I don't know. He said the only reason people get a liberal arts degree is for an excuse to get toasted, something that I know to be false for a large number of people.FSSL said:
And comparing education to a Ponzi scheme is ridiculous. Granted, he did say he was a fundamentalist and fundamentalism often shares a bed with anti-intellectualism.
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cubanito said:
Me too. I love plums.
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rsc2a said:
There are many reasons why a person pursues a liberal arts degree. Some are deluded by the educational system to keep the pnzi scheme going and really think it useful. Others have all manner of high flying ideals that hit a brick wall once the student loans come due. Others do indeed choose these majors because they are EASY and allows them to pass while stoned.
There is NO need to learn by going to school. When younger I would sometimes pick up a volume from an encyclopedia and just read. I also used to buy old college textbooks at garage sales and read them. My entire education in economics was one saturday afternoon while my wife was shopping and I read her old economics textbook cover to cover in 3 hours. Yes, I am the smartest man here, in part because I self educate.
As to me being anti-intellectual, in college, while keeping a 30 hour a week job, I completed the coursework for 4 bachelors (chemistry, biology, biochemistry and psychology) and 2 minors (math and anthropology). 183 credits, 3.875 GPA on a 4.0 max system. I also worked during my first 2 years of med school and, afterwards, was an assistant professor of medicine for 12 years.
I can tell you most of what you were taught is either wrong or at best incomplete. Here's an example, 1+1=10 is a perfectly true mathematical statement. Just ask your computer. It was not until my late 30's that I finally learned the rudiments of counting integers on my fingers, and by no means have I mastered it.
Oh, and Galileo was wrong on at least 3 levels. Find yourself an astronomer online ans ask him if, according to relativity theory, the Earth really does go around the sun. Go ahead, learn something outside a classroom someday. You might fall in love with learning and continue to despise the educational system.
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Oh....I was going to leave well enough alone but since you are flat out lying, I think I'll continue...
[quote author=cubanito]There are many reasons why a person pursues a liberal arts degree. Some are deluded by the educational system to keep the pnzi scheme going and really think it useful. Others have all manner of high flying ideals that hit a brick wall once the student loans come due. Others do indeed choose these majors because they are EASY and allows them to pass while stoned. [/quote]
I work for an organization that employs over 15,000 people. The overwhelming majority of them have a B.S., B.A. or greater. Few of these majors were pursued because they were easy. Or should I tell all the engineers, biologists, programmers, lawyers, marketers, geologists, urban planners, architects, GIS analysts, accountants... that all their education was useless? In fact, I know plenty of folks who have turned their liberal arts degrees into fruitful careers in related fields. But then, how can I argue with the smartest man alive...
[quote author=cubanito]As to me being anti-intellectual, in college, while keeping a 30 hour a week job, I completed the coursework for 4 bachelors (chemistry, biology, biochemistry and psychology) and 2 minors (math and anthropology). 183 credits, 3.875 GPA on a 4.0 max system. I also worked during my first 2 years of med school and, afterwards, was an assistant professor of medicine for 12 years. [/quote]
...except that you are a liar. At a minimum, a B.S. takes around 120 hours. A second B.S. takes again, at a minimum, another 24 hours. So, at a minimum, you would need 192 credit hours for four B.S., not counting the additional hours required for your supposed minors.
Furthermore, at 183 credit hours over four years, that's only 46 credit hours a year. Big stinkin' deal. Two full-time loads and a couple summer classes each term and you could get that easy.
You worked during school? So did a lot of folks, and a lot of them worked full-time while they were doing it and still have a full+ load. *raises hand*
[quote author=cubanito]There is NO need to learn by going to school. When younger I would sometimes pick up a volume from an encyclopedia and just read. I also used to buy old college textbooks at garage sales and read them. My entire education in economics was one saturday afternoon while my wife was shopping and I read her old economics textbook cover to cover in 3 hours. Yes, I am the smartest man here, in part because I self educate.[/quote]
If your entire education in econ was a single textbook, you wouldn't make a very good economist. Surely not good enough to say you are educated about the topic. !light bulb! I figured it out...that's why you are convinced you are so smart. You read Dr. Seuss once and that makes you a genius about poetry! Tell me..what gave you your great theological insight? The Jesus Storybook Bible?
Plenty of us here do self-educate. I've lost track long ago of the number of books I've personally read, and my reading preference is non-fiction, preferably non-fiction with lots of footnotes. Does that make me a genius? Not even a little bit. But it does make me more knowledgeable than the average person.
In fact, your statement that there is no need to learn by going to school is simply absurd. Working in a highly technical field, I can assure you that the classes I took were vital to my being able to understand how to do my job. Of course, doctors and nurses don't need no book learnin' either.
[quote author=cubanito]I can tell you most of what you were taught is either wrong or at best incomplete. Here's an example, 1+1=10 is a perfectly true mathematical statement. Just ask your computer. It was not until my late 30's that I finally learned the rudiments of counting integers on my fingers, and by no means have I mastered it.[/quote]
Oh boy! You learned about binary numbers. That's supposed to be impressive why?
[quote author=cubanito]Oh, and Galileo was wrong on at least 3 levels. Find yourself an astronomer online ans ask him if, according to relativity theory, the Earth really does go around the sun. Go ahead, learn something outside a classroom someday. You might fall in love with learning and continue to despise the educational system.[/quote]
Galileo was wrong about many things. The man lived hundreds of years ago. Now you are disenchanted with education because Einstein expanded on what Galileo (and Ptolemy and Copernicus and Kepler and Newton and...) discovered?
And I love learning. That's why I'm currently reading three different books including one on soil chemistry in gardening, a smallish book on Christian living and a massive 800 page book on theology (Book 2 of 5..I'll be on 3 eventually.) with probably more than 1500+ footnotes. Of course, this doesn't count all the research and learning that are required by my daily 9-5 or the study I do for the Bible study I teach. And, here's the kicker...I still see plenty of value in the educational system, particularly the parts that teach the students how to start self-educating.
[quote author=cubanito]There are many reasons why a person pursues a liberal arts degree. Some are deluded by the educational system to keep the pnzi scheme going and really think it useful. Others have all manner of high flying ideals that hit a brick wall once the student loans come due. Others do indeed choose these majors because they are EASY and allows them to pass while stoned. [/quote]
I work for an organization that employs over 15,000 people. The overwhelming majority of them have a B.S., B.A. or greater. Few of these majors were pursued because they were easy. Or should I tell all the engineers, biologists, programmers, lawyers, marketers, geologists, urban planners, architects, GIS analysts, accountants... that all their education was useless? In fact, I know plenty of folks who have turned their liberal arts degrees into fruitful careers in related fields. But then, how can I argue with the smartest man alive...
[quote author=cubanito]As to me being anti-intellectual, in college, while keeping a 30 hour a week job, I completed the coursework for 4 bachelors (chemistry, biology, biochemistry and psychology) and 2 minors (math and anthropology). 183 credits, 3.875 GPA on a 4.0 max system. I also worked during my first 2 years of med school and, afterwards, was an assistant professor of medicine for 12 years. [/quote]
...except that you are a liar. At a minimum, a B.S. takes around 120 hours. A second B.S. takes again, at a minimum, another 24 hours. So, at a minimum, you would need 192 credit hours for four B.S., not counting the additional hours required for your supposed minors.
Furthermore, at 183 credit hours over four years, that's only 46 credit hours a year. Big stinkin' deal. Two full-time loads and a couple summer classes each term and you could get that easy.
You worked during school? So did a lot of folks, and a lot of them worked full-time while they were doing it and still have a full+ load. *raises hand*
[quote author=cubanito]There is NO need to learn by going to school. When younger I would sometimes pick up a volume from an encyclopedia and just read. I also used to buy old college textbooks at garage sales and read them. My entire education in economics was one saturday afternoon while my wife was shopping and I read her old economics textbook cover to cover in 3 hours. Yes, I am the smartest man here, in part because I self educate.[/quote]
If your entire education in econ was a single textbook, you wouldn't make a very good economist. Surely not good enough to say you are educated about the topic. !light bulb! I figured it out...that's why you are convinced you are so smart. You read Dr. Seuss once and that makes you a genius about poetry! Tell me..what gave you your great theological insight? The Jesus Storybook Bible?
Plenty of us here do self-educate. I've lost track long ago of the number of books I've personally read, and my reading preference is non-fiction, preferably non-fiction with lots of footnotes. Does that make me a genius? Not even a little bit. But it does make me more knowledgeable than the average person.
In fact, your statement that there is no need to learn by going to school is simply absurd. Working in a highly technical field, I can assure you that the classes I took were vital to my being able to understand how to do my job. Of course, doctors and nurses don't need no book learnin' either.
[quote author=cubanito]I can tell you most of what you were taught is either wrong or at best incomplete. Here's an example, 1+1=10 is a perfectly true mathematical statement. Just ask your computer. It was not until my late 30's that I finally learned the rudiments of counting integers on my fingers, and by no means have I mastered it.[/quote]
Oh boy! You learned about binary numbers. That's supposed to be impressive why?
[quote author=cubanito]Oh, and Galileo was wrong on at least 3 levels. Find yourself an astronomer online ans ask him if, according to relativity theory, the Earth really does go around the sun. Go ahead, learn something outside a classroom someday. You might fall in love with learning and continue to despise the educational system.[/quote]
Galileo was wrong about many things. The man lived hundreds of years ago. Now you are disenchanted with education because Einstein expanded on what Galileo (and Ptolemy and Copernicus and Kepler and Newton and...) discovered?
And I love learning. That's why I'm currently reading three different books including one on soil chemistry in gardening, a smallish book on Christian living and a massive 800 page book on theology (Book 2 of 5..I'll be on 3 eventually.) with probably more than 1500+ footnotes. Of course, this doesn't count all the research and learning that are required by my daily 9-5 or the study I do for the Bible study I teach. And, here's the kicker...I still see plenty of value in the educational system, particularly the parts that teach the students how to start self-educating.
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1- Notice how your mentioned list of bachelors are devoid of philosophy, english literature, women's studies ect. Thank you for seeing it my way. I am all for a college education, such as paying for my daughter's BS in Biology, when it has actual useful content towards a paycheck. The reality is, liberal arts degrees are not worth much, and educational systems LIE to their clients in promoting them. Again the reality, it is far easier to do a degree in fine arts than to actually go through calculus, or differential equations, or learning organic chemistry ect. My BA in psychology was a joke I took mainly for easy grades. If you believe that there are not a great many people who choose easy majors so they can coast through college you are naive or self-delusional. There are of course those with the high ideals also, and many other reasons for loading up with huge debts for an essentially useless degree, as I noted. The educational system, were it actually concerned with the future of it's students, would make it clear that many majors are worthless. But, like any other of man's enterprises, it is a selfish rotting mess,
2- I went to the U of Miami in Coral Gables from 1976 through 1981. I live at 5661 Granada Blvd, 33146, about 10 blocks away. Back then, "Sun Tan U" as it was known had a strict NO ATTENDANCE policy. No teacher was allowed to take attendance. I find it curious that on the one hand you say what I did was impossible, and on the other you say it was no big deal. Perhaps in your case a course in basic propositional logic might have helped your argumentative skills. No matter, I am a liar huh? Well, that is because once again you fail in being able to read what was written. As I NEVER claimed that alcholism was the sole purpose for a college degree, that being your take away; I also never claimed I got the 4 bachelors. I did indeed do the entire coursework that was required for the 3 BS, 1 BA and 2 AS degrees BUT the U would only give me a BA and a BS. That was part of the reason I took psych, because I got an easy second bachelor. But you see, I am a liar, even though these are easy to check public facts. Cool, at least you have a pulse, I like that.
3- Correct, binary math is one such reason. Now go read Continuum Hypothesis and Godell's incompleteness theorems to get some more reasons. As to Galileo, he was a liar. He fudged his data. The system that fit the data at the time was Tycho Brae because, unintentionally, his system approximated elliptical orbits for planets. There were other reasons Galileo was wrong, such as writing a book calling his defender and friend "Pope" Urban a simpleton. However you miss the point yet again. It is the fact that in the typical classroom of TODAY mathematics and Eucledian geometry are set forth as Absolute Truth, when that is not true; and that Galileo as some sort of martyr to the forces of ignorant religion, when in fact Galileo was a liar AND an insultive idiot.
While there are, on human terms, "good" people working very hard to do a decent job here and there; the majority of the educational system is a rotting, self-interested, inefficient machine that hatesTruth, originality and the worship of the Creator with a passion. Frankly, while IFB colleges and seminaries may not be as thoroughly dedicated to the Abolition of Man, Truth and, oh yes I am going to say it, the American Dream; the majority of colleges have that as their central motivating impetus. Please note, my squirrel friend, that I started by noting I was giving the view as a Christian who has spent his entire educational life among the zombies (zombies = the living dead who want to eat your brains, ie, the unregenerate). Now I speak of the zombies, who have so supressed the Truth from their rotting brains that they no longer realize the Evil they do, and the Satan they serve. I do not want here to write of the fewer in number, but far more dangerous vampires. Vampires are also dead, but they are conaciously evil and wish to suck the Life=blood out of you. In the educational system there are also vampires, people who actively seek to destroy that which they know to be True. Thye however lurk in shadows. The average secular campus is populated by zombies.
As to IBF colleges, only was 2 weeks at Dallas Theological seminary for a copurse in creationism, so I can not opine.
JR, amused at the need for self protection thus far displayed.
2- I went to the U of Miami in Coral Gables from 1976 through 1981. I live at 5661 Granada Blvd, 33146, about 10 blocks away. Back then, "Sun Tan U" as it was known had a strict NO ATTENDANCE policy. No teacher was allowed to take attendance. I find it curious that on the one hand you say what I did was impossible, and on the other you say it was no big deal. Perhaps in your case a course in basic propositional logic might have helped your argumentative skills. No matter, I am a liar huh? Well, that is because once again you fail in being able to read what was written. As I NEVER claimed that alcholism was the sole purpose for a college degree, that being your take away; I also never claimed I got the 4 bachelors. I did indeed do the entire coursework that was required for the 3 BS, 1 BA and 2 AS degrees BUT the U would only give me a BA and a BS. That was part of the reason I took psych, because I got an easy second bachelor. But you see, I am a liar, even though these are easy to check public facts. Cool, at least you have a pulse, I like that.
3- Correct, binary math is one such reason. Now go read Continuum Hypothesis and Godell's incompleteness theorems to get some more reasons. As to Galileo, he was a liar. He fudged his data. The system that fit the data at the time was Tycho Brae because, unintentionally, his system approximated elliptical orbits for planets. There were other reasons Galileo was wrong, such as writing a book calling his defender and friend "Pope" Urban a simpleton. However you miss the point yet again. It is the fact that in the typical classroom of TODAY mathematics and Eucledian geometry are set forth as Absolute Truth, when that is not true; and that Galileo as some sort of martyr to the forces of ignorant religion, when in fact Galileo was a liar AND an insultive idiot.
While there are, on human terms, "good" people working very hard to do a decent job here and there; the majority of the educational system is a rotting, self-interested, inefficient machine that hatesTruth, originality and the worship of the Creator with a passion. Frankly, while IFB colleges and seminaries may not be as thoroughly dedicated to the Abolition of Man, Truth and, oh yes I am going to say it, the American Dream; the majority of colleges have that as their central motivating impetus. Please note, my squirrel friend, that I started by noting I was giving the view as a Christian who has spent his entire educational life among the zombies (zombies = the living dead who want to eat your brains, ie, the unregenerate). Now I speak of the zombies, who have so supressed the Truth from their rotting brains that they no longer realize the Evil they do, and the Satan they serve. I do not want here to write of the fewer in number, but far more dangerous vampires. Vampires are also dead, but they are conaciously evil and wish to suck the Life=blood out of you. In the educational system there are also vampires, people who actively seek to destroy that which they know to be True. Thye however lurk in shadows. The average secular campus is populated by zombies.
As to IBF colleges, only was 2 weeks at Dallas Theological seminary for a copurse in creationism, so I can not opine.
JR, amused at the need for self protection thus far displayed.
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And I have plums, it's a plumber I need. That was not a typo. Spanish is my native language so what you think is a typo is actually Hisponics. You have colleges teaching Ebonics? Well, bring some sauce for my goose.
Just to make it plain:
Just to make it plain:
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cubanito said:
Liberal arts degrees may not be worth much. Turn that psychology degree you are deriding into a career in advertising or that philosophy degree into a J.D. and they are worth plenty. Just like everything else, you largely get out what you are willing to put in. Or should I mention the Ph.D. (Math) my wife knows who now owns a junkyard as a career?
What you are espousing is are some of the very talking points of anti-intellectualism... "Education purely for the sake of education is worthless. If it doesn't lead to a paycheck, there is no point." As a supposed doctor, you owe a great deal to people who spent their lives studying human biology and medicine simply because it fascinated them, not out of pursuit of a paycheck.
[quote author=cubanito]2- I went to the U of Miami in Coral Gables from 1976 through 1981. I live at 5661 Granada Blvd, 33146, about 10 blocks away. Back then, "Sun Tan U" as it was known had a strict NO ATTENDANCE policy. No teacher was allowed to take attendance. I find it curious that on the one hand you say what I did was impossible, and on the other you say it was no big deal. Perhaps in your case a course in basic propositional logic might have helped your argumentative skills. No matter, I am a liar huh? Well, that is because once again you fail in being able to read what was written. As I NEVER claimed that alcholism was the sole purpose for a college degree, that being your take away; I also never claimed I got the 4 bachelors. I did indeed do the entire coursework that was required for the 3 BS, 1 BA and 2 AS degrees BUT the U would only give me a BA and a BS. That was part of the reason I took psych, because I got an easy second bachelor. But you see, I am a liar, even though these are easy to check public facts. Cool, at least you have a pulse, I like that.[/quote]
Let's see...
I completed the coursework for 4 bachelors (chemistry, biology, biochemistry and psychology) and 2 minors (math and anthropology) - the smartest man who ever lived
College for the majority of students is a waste of time (and in secular schools, detrimental to your liver for sure)...Others do indeed choose these majors because they are EASY and allows them to pass while stoned... - the smartest man who ever lived
...maybe your degrees were in "talking out of both sides of the mouth" because any reasonable person is going to read the first to mean you completed 4 bachelors (which you are still functionally claiming) and the second that the majority of students are attending college simply to get hammered.
Now, for that lesson in basic propositional logic:
I said that it was impossible for you to have attained 4 B.S. degrees (which you have now upped to 3 BS / 1 BA) and two minors having only 183 credits.
I also said that the fact that you allegedly accomplished this while working part-time was no big deal.
A => C and B => C does not require that A = B. See also: illicit minor.
[quote author=cubanito]3- Correct, binary math is one such reason. Now go read Continuum Hypothesis and Godell's incompleteness theorems to get some more reasons. As to Galileo, he was a liar. He fudged his data. The system that fit the data at the time was Tycho Brae because, unintentionally, his system approximated elliptical orbits for planets. There were other reasons Galileo was wrong, such as writing a book calling his defender and friend "Pope" Urban a simpleton. However you miss the point yet again. It is the fact that in the typical classroom of TODAY mathematics and Eucledian geometry are set forth as Absolute Truth, when that is not true; and that Galileo as some sort of martyr to the forces of ignorant religion, when in fact Galileo was a liar AND an insultive idiot.[/quote]
No thanks. I prefer my math to be practical. Of course, I suggest you were referring specifically to binary (thus your appeal to base10 as well) and not advanced theoretical mathematics. Unless you can provide a particular paper that shows the claim you made for these theorems you just cited?
And, I have absolutely no issue at all with the typical classroom teaching mathematics and Euclidean geometry as truth. It is true, provided you maintain the basic parameters than 99.9999% of folks will be functioning in. Likewise, I don't go into complex explanations of cellular physiology such as ATP synthase when explaining to my seven year old how eating proper foods makes her grow taller either. Maybe you have a beef with Galileo because you are afraid someone might think he was smarter than you.
[quote author=cubanito]While there are, on human terms, "good" people working very hard to do a decent job here and there; the majority of the educational system is a rotting, self-interested, inefficient machine that hatesTruth, originality and the worship of the Creator with a passion. Frankly, while IFB colleges and seminaries may not be as thoroughly dedicated to the Abolition of Man, Truth and, oh yes I am going to say it, the American Dream; the majority of colleges have that as their central motivating impetus. Please note, my squirrel friend, that I started by noting I was giving the view as a Christian who has spent his entire educational life among the zombies (zombies = the living dead who want to eat your brains, ie, the unregenerate). Now I speak of the zombies, who have so supressed the Truth from their rotting brains that they no longer realize the Evil they do, and the Satan they serve. I do not want here to write of the fewer in number, but far more dangerous vampires. Vampires are also dead, but they are conaciously evil and wish to suck the Life=blood out of you. In the educational system there are also vampires, people who actively seek to destroy that which they know to be True. Thye however lurk in shadows. The average secular campus is populated by zombies.[/quote]
Sounds a lot like a bunch of church folk I know...
[quote author=cubanito]JR, amused at the need for self protection thus far displayed.[/quote]
Blah...I'm happy with my lowly B.S. I'm fine learning on my own and don't need a bunch more letters after my name although I haven't discounted the possibility of further schooling for some subjects more easily other-taught. I'm not claiming to be the smartest man alive. In short, have fun with that.