For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone

[subllibrm]

I didn't say equal.

You said that the ratio (40 minutes of singing and 40 minutes of sermon)  "you will not find the above ratio problematic".  How is 40/40 not an equal ratio?

I said I didn't find the "ratio" a problem. You are the one who conflated that into calling their "value" equal.

A pound of sand and a pound of gold are equal in weight ratio. Does that also mean they are of equal value?

Ratio and value are not synonymous. So 40 minutes singing and 40 minutes of preaching, while equal in time, does not automatically make them equal in value. The onus is on you to show/prove that equal time somehow minimizes the value of one over the other.

 

[subllibrm]

Of course, you could keep insisting that church is primarily about a lecture...

I predict that just such will happen and that you will be called obtuse.  ;D

 

[ALAYMAN]

I said I didn't find the "ratio" a problem. You are the one who conflated that into calling their "value" equal.

A pound of sand and a pound of gold are equal in weight ratio. Does that also mean they are of equal value?

Ratio and value are not synonymous. So 40 minutes singing and 40 minutes of preaching, while equal in time, does not automatically make them equal in value. The onus is on you to show/prove that equal time somehow minimizes the value of one over the other.

That's a lot of words stung into some nice semantical gymnastics.  Instead of rsc2a, maybe it's you who deserves the O word today.   By your apparent (at least implied) reckoning of value, we could have 10 minutes of preaching and 80 minutes of preached word, isn't that right?

yet, against Colossians 3 which says: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God."

<ahem>  What do ya reckon "the words of Christ" are? 

I see NO competition between the teaching ministry of the church and the music ministry. In fact, Scripture never places on in priority over and against the other.

Not a competition, and nobody said such, oh word twister.  Both components are valid worship for the coporate Christian body, along with prayer, and other things.  But to state that the centrality of Christian corporate worship is anything other than the preached word stands against long-held evangelical Christian practice.

Of course, you could keep insisting that church is primarily about a lecture...

Which of course shows one of several things...

1) Your lack of appreciation for what the true preaching of Christ's gospel is...
2) Your lack of understanding of what preaching actually is...
3) Your obtuse penchant for misrepresentation of your opponent...


Personally, I think it's a little of all three.

 

[christundivided]

Yes, you are correct.  I stand against the notion that you and subllibrm put forth which claims that music has an equal part in the Christian worship experience.  In that sense, I stand with ages of protestant evangelical emphasis.

yet, against Colossians 3 which says: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God."

I see NO competition between the teaching ministry of the church and the music ministry. In fact, Scripture never places on in priority over and against the other.

I've never liked the term "music ministry". Now can you "minister" to someone via song. Sure.... Now turn such a thing into what it is today...... Can't see it.

I have to disagree with the "priority" of one over another. Paul didn't tell Timothy and Titus to "sing the song". Be instant, in season and out of season. Just my penny.

 

[rsc2a]

Of course, you could keep insisting that church is primarily about a lecture...

I predict that just such will happen and that you will be called obtuse.  ;D

Called it.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Called it.

Truth is truth, and a spade is a spade.  You're a spade.  You called the precious preaching of God's word "a lecture".  I should call you a lot worse for that.

 

[subllibrm]

I said I didn't find the "ratio" a problem. You are the one who conflated that into calling their "value" equal.

A pound of sand and a pound of gold are equal in weight ratio. Does that also mean they are of equal value?

Ratio and value are not synonymous. So 40 minutes singing and 40 minutes of preaching, while equal in time, does not automatically make them equal in value. The onus is on you to show/prove that equal time somehow minimizes the value of one over the other.

That's a lot of words stung into some nice semantical gymnastics.  Instead of rsc2a, maybe it's you who deserves the O word today.   By your apparent (at least implied) reckoning of value, we could have 10 minutes of preaching and 80 minutes of preached word, isn't that right?

I never claimed there was a correct ratio. You are the one who contended that 40 min of each was somehow wrong. The onus is on you to show what the proper ratio is.

BTW do you stop the campfire singing to make sure you get the "devotional" equal time? 

 

[ALAYMAN]

I never claimed there was a correct ratio. You are the one who contended that 40 min of each was somehow wrong. The onus is on you to show what the proper ratio is.

A lack of balance reveals a potential flaw in philosophy.  Obviously there's not a verse in Scripture that says "the right proportion worship is 20% singing and 80% preaching".  It is disingenuous and a little disappointing for you to take the discussion that direction. 

Let me ask you a question since you are so non-comittal on the subject.  Is there ANY proportion or disproportion of singing to preaching that would be troublesome to you if it were a regular habit in the corporate worship gathering?

BTW do you stop the campfire singing to make sure you get the "devotional" equal time? 

Depends on whether the singers veer any towards the CCM path.

 

[Mathew Ward]

I never claimed there was a correct ratio. You are the one who contended that 40 min of each was somehow wrong. The onus is on you to show what the proper ratio is.

A lack of balance reveals a potential flaw in philosophy.  Obviously there's not a verse in Scripture that says "the right proportion worship is 20% singing and 80% preaching".  It is disingenuous and a little disappointing for you to take the discussion that direction. 

Let me ask you a question since you are so non-comittal on the subject.  Is there ANY proportion or disproportion of singing to preaching that would be troublesome to you if it were a regular habit in the corporate worship gathering?

BTW do you stop the campfire singing to make sure you get the "devotional" equal time? 

Depends on whether the singers veer any towards the CCM path.

I've heard a lot of guys preach over an hour and not say anything.

I've also heard guys speak for 5 minutes and say plenty.


Lincoln's 2 minute speech at Gettysburg (272 words) far outweighs Everett's 2 hour speech.

 

[subllibrm]

I never claimed there was a correct ratio. You are the one who contended that 40 min of each was somehow wrong. The onus is on you to show what the proper ratio is.

A lack of balance reveals a potential flaw in philosophy.  Obviously there's not a verse in Scripture that says "the right proportion worship is 20% singing and 80% preaching".  It is disingenuous and a little disappointing for you to take the discussion that direction. 

Let me ask you a question since you are so non-committal on the subject.  Is there ANY proportion or disproportion of singing to preaching that would be troublesome to you if it were a regular habit in the corporate worship gathering?

I am non-committal because I had never thought about it before you made it an issue. Must be how we do it is just right. 

And to your accusation of disingenuous, I was looking for you to clear up the question of correct ratio to show that the preaching is esteemed over the song service. If you can point out a wrong ratio then it would follow that you believe there to be a right ratio. And I never asked for scripture, I asked you to expand on your statement for the sake of application.

Personally I wouldn't have enjoyed the service you described. My experience has been that the leaders expect everyone to stand throughout the singing portion and I can't stand for 40 minutes (all assumptive conclusion on my part).

If I had to choose one over the other I would skip singing entirely to be able to hear the word preached.

Of course we are both working from the American model of a 1 to 1 1/2 hour Sunday morning service. Were we in another cultural setting where "church" took all day how would we know when we have hit the correct mix of worship activities? To folks overseas in the underground church, I could imagine them thinking we are all doing it wrong.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I've heard a lot of guys preach over an hour and not say anything.

I've also heard guys speak for 5 minutes and say plenty.


Lincoln's 2 minute speech at Gettysburg (272 words) far outweighs Everett's 2 hour speech.

Completely understand.  But all things being equal, proper exposition of the word is the proper model in view here, not a Hyles-style abuse of Scripture in order to push a cotton-candy or hobby horse.  If it is a given that we are talking about sound exegesis and exposition, then I'd make a strong argument that the centrality of the word ought to be the emphasis.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I am non-committal because I had never thought about it before you made it an issue.

Fair enough.  Mea culpa bro.

And to your accusation of disingenuous, I was looking for you to clear up the question of correct ratio to show that the preaching is esteemed over the song service. If you can point out a wrong ratio then it would follow that you believe there to be a right ratio. And I never asked for scripture, I asked you to expand on your statement for the sake of application.

The simple answer is that it is plain and obvious from a cursory reading of Scripture that the enormity of the occurrence of God's word (and the command to look to it for instruction) in the life of the people of God far outweighs the usage of music in worship.

Personally I wouldn't have enjoyed the service you described. My experience has been that the leaders expect everyone to stand throughout the singing portion and I can't stand for 40 minutes (all assumptive conclusion on my part).

Well, your assumptions are absolutely dead spot on.  Though there was a modest effort made by the worship leader to let the congregants know that they didn't have to stand when others stood.  It all seemed a bit choreographed to me, a bit contrived. 

Of course we are both working from the American model of a 1 to 1 1/2 hour Sunday morning service. Were we in another cultural setting where "church" took all day how would we know when we have hit the correct mix of worship activities? To folks overseas in the underground church, I could imagine them thinking we are all doing it wrong.

I think that the way a service manifests itself ought to be Spirit led and might appear different in different cultural contexts, but despite these differences I'd say that the word should be front and center for the equipping, admonishing, and edification of the saints.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Completely understand.  But all things being equal, proper exposition of the word is the proper model in view here, not a Hyles-style abuse of Scripture in order to push a cotton-candy or hobby horse.  If it is a given that we are talking about sound exegesis and exposition, then I'd make a strong argument that the centrality of the word ought to be the emphasis.[/quote]

Have you even read the lyrics to In Christ Alone? It's filled with Scripture, so if the centrality of Scripture is what concerns you most...

...of course, I'd prefer Jesus be central.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]The simple answer is that it is plain and obvious from a cursory reading of Scripture that the enormity of the occurrence of God's word (and the command to look to it for instruction) in the life of the people of God far outweighs the usage of music in worship. [/quote]

Pop quiz! Which book of the Bible is the longest? Which has the most chapters?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]I think that the way a service manifests itself ought to be Spirit led and might appear different in different cultural contexts, but despite these differences I'd say that the word should be front and center for the equipping, admonishing, and edification of the saints.[/quote]

"I'd say my personal preferences should be for all people and all times."

 

[subllibrm]

And now for something from that evil grey area:

Keith & Kristyn Getty "The Power of the Cross"

 

[Bob H]

If your church holds a "singsparation" and no one gives a devotional, did worship happen?

I guess it depends on when it is. If you have it Sunday morn during service time go for it.

Anyone here ever learn carpentry by listening to a lecture on the subject?

We're comparing a lecture to the preaching of the Word? Paul and Spurgeon wouldn't be popular these days. The primacy of preaching is surely gone in America. The people in America want to be entertained and it has crept into the Church. But the scripture has forth told such.

Complaining that he has told them over and over what to do and they still won't do it.

I guess we do have a different view on preaching

Flame on boys but don't tell me it isn't true because I have lived it.

I guess that ends this. If your experience & discernment of the times out weighs mine and everyone elses there's no need to flame on. No hard feelings my good Christian bro.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I guess that ends this. If your experience & discernment of the times out weighs mine and everyone elses there's no need to flame on. No hard feelings my good Christian bro.

And this is what makes worship relative to the individual. Different styles/venues influence people differently.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[rsc2a]

And now for something from that evil grey area:

Keith & Kristyn Getty "The Power of the Cross"

If there was only the word of God being proclaimed in that song...

...but then that there's a woman so it wouldn't count.

 

[Bob H]

I guess that ends this. If your experience & discernment of the times out weighs mine and everyone elses there's no need to flame on. No hard feelings my good Christian bro.

And this is what makes worship relative to the individual. Different styles/venues influence people differently.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I never said otherwise and that's not what was pointed out. But I will admit my communication skills lack.

 

[subllibrm]

And now for something from that evil grey area:

Keith & Kristyn Getty "The Power of the Cross"

If there was only the word of God being proclaimed in that song...

...but then that there's a woman so it wouldn't count.

And she was wearing pants!