For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone

[Mathew Ward]

First of all, he claimed that Christs sermons were "taught mostly not to large groups", yet the word multitude/multitudes is used in connection with Christ roughly 80 times in the gospels. The vast majority of those references were in regards to times He ministered and taught.

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 13:54  And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

Mark 1:21  And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mark 3:1  And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.

Luke 4:15-16  And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Now there are numerous occasions he taught his disciples...Matthew 5:1-2  And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Then of couse you have his individual dealings like Nicodemus, women at the well, the man with the 38 year infirmity and we could go on and on.

This is noteworthy...John 6:2-3  And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.

So he went from town to town going to the synagogues and meeting with individuals. Not teaching large groups like the feeding of the 5000.

 

[Bob H]

My statement was "Where did I make the claim that the "only way to hear the word preached is through a sermon"?

That statement/claim was never made in this thread.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

First of all, he claimed that Christs sermons were "taught mostly not to large groups", yet the word multitude/multitudes is used in connection with Christ roughly 80 times in the gospels. The vast majority of those references were in regards to times He ministered and taught.

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 13:54  And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

Mark 1:21  And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mark 3:1  And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.

Luke 4:15-16  And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Now there are numerous occasions he taught his disciples...Matthew 5:1-2  And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Then of couse you have his individual dealings like Nicodemus, women at the well, the man with the 38 year infirmity and we could go on and on.

This is noteworthy...John 6:2-3  And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.

So he went from town to town going to the synagogues and meeting with individuals. Not teaching large groups like the feeding of the 5000.

Here is my difference in opinion, while I mentioned the word multitude, and the 5000, I would not consider the synagogue a "small group". Certainly, we don't get a number, nor an adjective like large or small or any variant, but I would liken the synagogue to a smaller church setting, where many are gathered. I don't call that a "small group". The "disciples", the one on ones, very much fit the small group bill.

"He went from town to town going to the synagogues and meeting with individual" is only part of what he did. It is also important to note that many of hins interaction with individuals were done in front of multitudes.

Matthew 5:1-2  And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Matthew 8:1-2  When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:6-8  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Matthew 9:33  And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.

Matthew 11:7  And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

Matthew 12:15  But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Matthew 13:2  And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

Matthew 13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Matthew 15:10  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

Matthew 15:30  And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

Matthew 17:14  And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

Matthew 22:33  And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Matthew 23:1  Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Mark 2:13  And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.

Mark 3:32-33  And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

Mark 4:1  And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.

I will quit here. I don't want to take the time to comb out the parallel passages. I think I established the fact that teaching larger groups was as much of what he did as teaching small groups.

 

[Mathew Ward]

First of all, he claimed that Christs sermons were "taught mostly not to large groups", yet the word multitude/multitudes is used in connection with Christ roughly 80 times in the gospels. The vast majority of those references were in regards to times He ministered and taught.

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 13:54  And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

Mark 1:21  And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mark 3:1  And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.

Luke 4:15-16  And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Now there are numerous occasions he taught his disciples...Matthew 5:1-2  And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Then of couse you have his individual dealings like Nicodemus, women at the well, the man with the 38 year infirmity and we could go on and on.

This is noteworthy...John 6:2-3  And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.

So he went from town to town going to the synagogues and meeting with individuals. Not teaching large groups like the feeding of the 5000.

Here is my difference in opinion, while I mentioned the word multitude, and the 5000, I would not consider the synagogue a "small group". Certainly, we don't get a number, nor an adjective like large or small or any variant, but I would liken the synagogue to a smaller church setting, where many are gathered. I don't call that a "small group". The "disciples", the one on ones, very much fit the small group bill.

"He went from town to town going to the synagogues and meeting with individual" is only part of what he did. It is also important to note that many of hins interaction with individuals were done in front of multitudes.

Matthew 5:1-2  And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Matthew 8:1-2  When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:6-8  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Matthew 9:33  And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.

Matthew 11:7  And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

Matthew 12:15  But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Matthew 13:2  And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

Matthew 13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Matthew 15:10  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

Matthew 15:30  And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

Matthew 17:14  And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

Matthew 22:33  And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Matthew 23:1  Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Mark 2:13  And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.

Mark 3:32-33  And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

Mark 4:1  And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.

I will quit here. I don't want to take the time to comb out the parallel passages. I think I established the fact that teaching larger groups was as much of what he did as teaching small groups.

There a couple of prominent (large) synagogues but the majority would fit the bill of a small group. This was his main emphasis of teaching.

Most of the verses you listed contain the word multitudes, but there is very little of Christ addressing the multitudes to teach them. Also note that there are also times (Matthew 15 and others) where he teaches in parables for only those with ears to hear.

 

[subllibrm]

First of all, he claimed that Christs sermons were "taught mostly not to large groups", yet the word multitude/multitudes is used in connection with Christ roughly 80 times in the gospels. The vast majority of those references were in regards to times He ministered and taught.

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 13:54  And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

Mark 1:21  And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mark 3:1  And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.

Luke 4:15-16  And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Now there are numerous occasions he taught his disciples...Matthew 5:1-2  And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Then of couse you have his individual dealings like Nicodemus, women at the well, the man with the 38 year infirmity and we could go on and on.

This is noteworthy...John 6:2-3  And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.

So he went from town to town going to the synagogues and meeting with individuals. Not teaching large groups like the feeding of the 5000.

Here is my difference in opinion, while I mentioned the word multitude, and the 5000, I would not consider the synagogue a "small group". Certainly, we don't get a number, nor an adjective like large or small or any variant, but I would liken the synagogue to a smaller church setting, where many are gathered. I don't call that a "small group". The "disciples", the one on ones, very much fit the small group bill.

"He went from town to town going to the synagogues and meeting with individual" is only part of what he did. It is also important to note that many of hins interaction with individuals were done in front of multitudes.

Matthew 5:1-2  And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Matthew 8:1-2  When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:6-8  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Matthew 9:33  And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.

Matthew 11:7  And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

Matthew 12:15  But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Matthew 13:2  And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

Matthew 13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Matthew 15:10  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

Matthew 15:30  And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

Matthew 17:14  And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

Matthew 22:33  And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Matthew 23:1  Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Mark 2:13  And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.

Mark 3:32-33  And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

Mark 4:1  And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.

I will quit here. I don't want to take the time to comb out the parallel passages. I think I established the fact that teaching larger groups was as much of what he did as teaching small groups.

There a couple of prominent (large) synagogues but the majority would fit the bill of a small group. This was his main emphasis of teaching.

Most of the verses you listed contain the word multitudes, but there is very little of Christ addressing the multitudes to teach them. Also note that there are also times (Matthew 15 and others) where he teaches in parables for only those with ears to hear.

I believe that there is a pattern that as the message got deeper the group being taught got smaller. Note that the John 6 teaching about  His body and blood was not well received by the "multitude" and when the crowd cleared He taught further to those who had stayed with Him. Also consider that the "group" of Peter, James and John received teaching that initially went to them only.

 

[Liberty1]

I've never read of a music concert in the NT for the express purpose of giving out the gospel. The supremacy of preaching as the primary method of Biblical instruction has been elaborated most recently by a number of writers from John Stott and John Piper, to James Montgomery Boice and Philip Ryken. Jesus was a preacher/teacher - and only in our "watered down de-emphasis of preaching generation" has there been a love of talking about the crucifixion and resurrection in pleasurable, easy to swallow methods. The Gospel is easy to proclaim, but "easy" shouldn't be confused with flippant, or a side note to a rock concert.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]My statement was "Where did I make the claim that the "only way to hear the word preached is through a sermon"? [/quote]

The church I just mentioned having attended last weekend had about 40 minutes of warmup music, and then about 40 minutes of sermon, with a short couple of minutes invitation, so it fits the bill fairly well.  Too much emphasis on music, not enough on the word. - Alayman

Notice where the equation is. Music = "warm-up", sermon = "the word"

[quote author=ALAYMAN]If you think the quoted excerpts you cited somehow prove that I was making the claim that a church sermon is the only way people ever hear a sermon then you have more severe reading comprehension issues than I thought.[/quote]

A sermon is the only way people hear a sermon? Is this supposed to mean something?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Those excerpts state that in corporate worship the central (not "sole", that's a different word and different concept) emphasis should be the proclaimed word of God (the gospel). [/quote]

And you haven't yet shown why a song like In Christ Alone isn't proclamation of the word other than "because I said so".

[quote author=ALAYMAN]See, that word "central" doesn't mean "sole".  Not only that, but merely because I stated that the sermon should be the "central" (see, there's that word again.  look it up in Websters.  It's synonym is not "sole") part of corporate worship, it did not mean what you asserted, namely, that sermons or "preaching" only exists in corporate worship.[/quote]

Preaching only exists in corporate worship? Maybe you can cite where I asserted such because it's explicitly contrary to what I have said in this very thread!?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]I'd say nice try on your part, but it was really rather bland and predictable for you.[/quote]

Yes, I'm blandly predictable. It's also known as consistent and not making it up as I go along.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]My statement was "Where did I make the claim that the "only way to hear the word preached is through a sermon"?

The church I just mentioned having attended last weekend had about 40 minutes of warmup music, and then about 40 minutes of sermon, with a short couple of minutes invitation, so it fits the bill fairly well.  Too much emphasis on music, not enough on the word. - Alayman

Notice where the equation is. Music = "warm-up", sermon = "the word"

[quote author=ALAYMAN]If you think the quoted excerpts you cited somehow prove that I was making the claim that a church sermon is the only way people ever hear a sermon then you have more severe reading comprehension issues than I thought.[/quote]

A sermon is the only way people hear a sermon? Is this supposed to mean something?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Those excerpts state that in corporate worship the central (not "sole", that's a different word and different concept) emphasis should be the proclaimed word of God (the gospel). [/quote]

And you haven't yet shown why a song like In Christ Alone isn't proclamation of the word other than "because I said so".

[quote author=ALAYMAN]See, that word "central" doesn't mean "sole".  Not only that, but merely because I stated that the sermon should be the "central" (see, there's that word again.  look it up in Websters.  It's synonym is not "sole") part of corporate worship, it did not mean what you asserted, namely, that sermons or "preaching" only exists in corporate worship.[/quote]

Preaching only exists in corporate worship? Maybe you can cite where I asserted such because it's explicitly contrary to what I have said in this very thread!?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]I'd say nice try on your part, but it was really rather bland and predictable for you.[/quote]

Yes, I'm blandly predictable. It's also known as consistent and not making it up as I go along.
[/quote]


After that bloviating, I join in asking:
"Where did Alayman make the claim that the "only way to hear the word preached is through a sermon"?

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Tarheel, I am a rabbit trail chasing junkie, but I have made a personal determination (perhaps not quite as strong as a Nazarite vow) NOT to chase rsc2a down the rabbit hole. It seems to always turns out to be an adventure even Charles Lutwidge's imagination would have a hard time processing.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Tarheel, I am a rabbit trail chasing junkie, but I have made a personal determination (perhaps not quite as strong as a Nazarite vow) NOT to chase rsc2a down the rabbit hole. It seems to always turns out to be an adventure even Charles Lutwidge's imagination would have a hard time processing.

Yeah, I thought about composing another response showing how vapid his response was (again), but the truth is that he enjoys being obtuse.  The sad thing is that he leads people in worship.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Yeah, I thought about composing another response showing how vapid his response was (again), but the truth is that he enjoys being obtuse.  The sad thing is that he leads people in worship.[/quote]

I thought the sad thing was people who call themselves Christians making fun of others and calling names?

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Yeah, I thought about composing another response showing how vapid his response was (again), but the truth is that he enjoys being obtuse.  The sad thing is that he leads people in worship.

I thought the sad thing was people who call themselves Christians making fun of others and calling names?
[/quote]

The real sad thing is that you feel no remorse or repentance for being a pompous word twisting sophist.  The most ironic moment of my day so far was when you asked christundivided if he had EVER admitted being wrong.  Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Frag]

Wow.  I am away for a week and this thread turns into 35 pages of................. well, not sure.......



Yet still no clear scriptural mandate for listening to CCM.  Interesting.....

 

[subllibrm]

Wow.  I am away for a week and this thread turns into 35 pages of................. well, not sure.......



Yet still no clear scriptural mandate for listening to CCM.  Interesting.....

Nor clear scriptural mandate for not listening to CCM.

 

[Bob H]

Wow.  I am away for a week and this thread turns into 35 pages of................. well, not sure.......



Yet still no clear scriptural mandate for listening to CCM.  Interesting.....

Nor clear scriptural mandate for not listening to CCM.

I wonder if there is one for him taking another week off

 

[subllibrm]

Wow.  I am away for a week and this thread turns into 35 pages of................. well, not sure.......



Yet still no clear scriptural mandate for listening to CCM.  Interesting.....

Nor clear scriptural mandate for not listening to CCM.

I wonder if there is one for him taking another week off

We could take up a collection to pay for an extended vacation 

 

[Bob H]

Wow.  I am away for a week and this thread turns into 35 pages of................. well, not sure.......



Yet still no clear scriptural mandate for listening to CCM.  Interesting.....

Nor clear scriptural mandate for not listening to CCM.

I wonder if there is one for him taking another week off

We could take up a collection to pay for an extended vacation 

Naw. But you can take one up for me.

 

[Just John]

We're comparing a lecture to the preaching of the Word?

Yes, they are, at least rsc2a explicitly did.  And when called on it, he buries his head, because even he knows how stupid that was.

No. We are comparing some sermons to a lecture. Admin (I believe) made this point explicitly. We are also pointing out the foolishness that is evident when people claim that the only way to hear the word preached is through a sermon.

You want to see message of Jesus preached and proclaimed mightily? Feed someone or put clothes on their back. These examples are straight from the mouth of Jesus.

YeH Paul did a lot of that while wandering naked cold hungry and afflicted and others sent one and agaon unto his necessity.

Or, we could use examples from the the life of Christ. His "sermons" were taught mostly not to large groups of assembled people for just such an occasion but rather in His interactions with small groups and individuals in real world situations along the way. And some of these "sermons" tell us something about "feeding the hungry and clothing the naked" or about taking care of the "widows and the orphans". "This is real religion".

The liberals want to ignore the gospel and the X'ers and sometimes Evangelical's want to ignore the individual physical needs. B.A.L.A.N.C.E.  In the same way "preaching" is not only behind a pulpit and "worshiping" is not just music.

Well I have been accused of "introducing a red herring" for the above post. I guess I shall apologize to Alayman for not having read the some 300 prior posts in the thread. I don't come here much anymore because I work insane hours and don't have the time. But I think if one looks at the post in question it is directly related to the post I responded to....as well as anticipating the oft-used accusation of being a liberal by some for caring about the physical needs of people as a witness.

I had no interest in discussing the lame thread topic because it's so dumb and overdone. Apparently many felt the same as it seems not to be the current focus.

In the words of the immortal Guy Beaumont..."Carry on".   

 

[Just John]

Wow.  I am away for a week and this thread turns into 35 pages of................. well, not sure.......



Yet still no clear scriptural mandate for listening to CCM.  Interesting.....

Nor clear scriptural mandate for not listening to CCM.

I wonder if there is one for him taking another week off

LOL.  Well played. 

 

[Bob H]

. I don't come here much anymore because I work insane hours and don't have the time.

Retire man! It ain't a bad life