For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone

[Liberty1]

I've never read of a music concert in the NT for the express purpose of giving out the gospel.

I think you are setting up a false dichotomy.

Just because music concerts are not mentioned in the NT, does not mean that they are not able to be used for spreading the gospel.

It is obvious to me, having attended many CCM concerts, that you may be speaking from never attending one.

In the 80's, at Liberty, I saw Dallas Holm, Truth, and Sandi Patti. Does that count? My point is that the Bible places supreme importance on "preach the Word..." A number of current pastors, (mentioned in my previous post), in evangelical circles have written chapters on the need to be "biblicists" in proclaiming the Gospel. The emotional highs of the modern lights and deafening sounds of music simply don't fit the model of those who want to return to the spiritual depths of the 1st century. Can a person get saved at a concert? of course they can. Is that the model of biblical outreach of the gospel? Well, in answer to the topic of this thread, no.

 

[ALAYMAN]

We're comparing a lecture to the preaching of the Word?

Yes, they are, at least rsc2a explicitly did.  And when called on it, he buries his head, because even he knows how stupid that was.

No. We are comparing some sermons to a lecture. Admin (I believe) made this point explicitly. We are also pointing out the foolishness that is evident when people claim that the only way to hear the word preached is through a sermon.

You want to see message of Jesus preached and proclaimed mightily? Feed someone or put clothes on their back. These examples are straight from the mouth of Jesus.

YeH Paul did a lot of that while wandering naked cold hungry and afflicted and others sent one and agaon unto his necessity.

Or, we could use examples from the the life of Christ. His "sermons" were taught mostly not to large groups of assembled people for just such an occasion but rather in His interactions with small groups and individuals in real world situations along the way. And some of these "sermons" tell us something about "feeding the hungry and clothing the naked" or about taking care of the "widows and the orphans". "This is real religion".

The liberals want to ignore the gospel and the X'ers and sometimes Evangelical's want to ignore the individual physical needs. B.A.L.A.N.C.E.  In the same way "preaching" is not only behind a pulpit and "worshiping" is not just music.

Well I have been accused of "introducing a red herring" for the above post. I guess I shall apologize to Alayman for not having read the some 300 prior posts in the thread. I don't come here much anymore because I work insane hours and don't have the time. But I think if one looks at the post in question it is directly related to the post I responded to....as well as anticipating the oft-used accusation of being a liberal by some for caring about the physical needs of people as a witness.

I had no interest in discussing the lame thread topic because it's so dumb and overdone. Apparently many felt the same as it seems not to be the current focus.

In the words of the immortal Guy Beaumont..."Carry on".   

Always glad for your participation, even when I disagree with your content, or your herringbones.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Well I have been accused of "introducing a red herring" for the above post. I guess I shall apologize to Alayman for not having read the some 300 prior posts in the thread. I don't come here much anymore because I work insane hours and don't have the time. But I think if one looks at the post in question it is directly related to the post I responded to....as well as anticipating the oft-used accusation of being a liberal by some for caring about the physical needs of people as a witness.

I had no interest in discussing the lame thread topic because it's so dumb and overdone. Apparently many felt the same as it seems not to be the current focus.

In the words of the immortal Guy Beaumont..."Carry on".   

I commented on it, but I never thought it was a red herring, I just disagreed with the conclusion.

This thread has turned into a convoluted labyrinth of rabbit trails though, many my fault.

 

[subllibrm]

This thread has turned into a convoluted labyrinth of rabbit trails though, many my fault.

It's DUCK season!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Wow.  I am away for a week and this thread turns into 35 pages of................. well, not sure.......



Yet still no clear scriptural mandate for listening to CCM.  Interesting.....

Nor clear scriptural mandate for not listening to CCM.

Thou hast hitteth the naileth on the headeth. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I've never read of a music concert in the NT for the express purpose of giving out the gospel.

I think you are setting up a false dichotomy.

Just because music concerts are not mentioned in the NT, does not mean that they are not able to be used for spreading the gospel.

It is obvious to me, having attended many CCM concerts, that you may be speaking from never attending one.

In the 80's, at Liberty, I saw Dallas Holm, Truth, and Sandi Patti. Does that count? My point is that the Bible places supreme importance on "preach the Word..." A number of current pastors, (mentioned in my previous post), in evangelical circles have written chapters on the need to be "biblicists" in proclaiming the Gospel. The emotional highs of the modern lights and deafening sounds of music simply don't fit the model of those who want to return to the spiritual depths of the 1st century. Can a person get saved at a concert? of course they can. Is that the model of biblical outreach of the gospel? Well, in answer to the topic of this thread, no.

Personally, I agree with your commentary on some of what passes as CCM today...but my children and Grandchildren can and do worship thru what is to me noise and distractions.

I think you make another good point that many IFB's still think the popular Christian music of the 70s and 80s to be contemporary and sinful. They look like what they are on this issue....arbitrary, unreasonable and off the reservation as far as BIBLE principles are concerned.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Phew! I have been on the road for the past 10 days and trying to keep up with the forum using my phone. Sorry for bouncing in and out.

Have I missed anything? Did I convert any lost traditional souls? Anyone still think I have inconsistencies that need answering?

What is it that makes "Speak Life" a Christian song to you and not this song:
I love you, you love me, we're a happy family.
with a great big hug and a kiss from me to you, won't you say you love me too

( My understanding of your position is that a song simply needs to mention a Biblical concept to be Christian, so this would qualify)

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Traditionalists say the darndest things!

If you cannot see the straightforward biblical truths (giving life and hope through our speech) in a song written by a Christian artist on an album that hit #1 on the Christian billboard charts, flanked by songs about forgiveness, God's control and Christian perseverance, then you must turn the channel on your tv.

Your inability to see biblical truth is being enhanced by your habit of watching a tv show about a purple dinosaur.

I'm not sure what you mean by "traditionalist".
(also I love how you try to imply that I watch a show about a purple dinosaur while ironically giving away the fact that you knew the song was sung by a purple dinosaur - gotcha!)

So your answer is:
"Speak Life" is a Christian song because it was written by a Christian artist and hit #1 on the Christian billboard charts.

At least you admit that someone with no knowledge of Toby Mac would not know it was a Christian song.
So does that mean that any song written by a Christian artist automatically becomes a Christian song?


I enjoy CCM.  Some of my favorite artists are Chris Tomlin, the Getty's, Lauren Talley, and Hillsong.
However, I am bothered by so-called "Christian artists" who seem to try hard to make their songs vague and general in order to appeal to the world. My impression with "Speak Life" (and most Toby Mac songs in general) is that it was written to be sung on any radio station, in any movie, etc. I feel that Toby Mac wrote the song solely to make money (hence no mention of God/Jesus/Lord/Faith/etc.)
Other CCM artists do the same thing by writing "love songs to God" that don't actually mention God and could be featured on the local radio station that plays Celine Dion and Shania Twain songs. (yeah, I know these are dated references, I don't keep up with the current love song artists)
I'm glad "Speak Life" spoke to your heart and you got a blessing from it. But I do not consider songs to be Christian if the message of the song doesn't make it so.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=aleshanee]...in my opinion...[/quote]

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=aleshanee]...in my opinion...

that;s right..... this whole issue is ruled by matters of opinion..... on both sides.... or do you think there is some scriptural mandate for requiring ccm be used in a church service?... or for labelling anyone who doesn;t agree as biblically illiterate?......
[/quote]

Requiring?  No.  Allowing?  Sure.  And the literacy,  or lack thereof, would be based on the arguments for our against.

 

[Ransom]

(also I love how you try to imply that I watch a show about a purple dinosaur while ironically giving away the fact that you knew the song was sung by a purple dinosaur - gotcha!)

Really? You think it's funny that he would know about the theme song of a harmless though vapid PBS children's program that's been on the air for over 20 years? Even the most sheltered psycho-fundy kids would have to have been raised in a pit in the basement to have never heard of Barney.

So your answer is:
"Speak Life" is a Christian song because it was written by a Christian artist and hit #1 on the Christian billboard charts.

A Christian song, about Christian themes, recorded by a professing Christian musician, on a label founded by other Christian musicians to distribute other Christian music in Christian bookstores, for purchase by and the enjoyment of a Christian audience.

And you question its Christian-ness why, specifically?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

(also I love how you try to imply that I watch a show about a purple dinosaur while ironically giving away the fact that you knew the song was sung by a purple dinosaur - gotcha!)

Really? You think it's funny that he would know about the theme song of a harmless though vapid PBS children's program that's been on the air for over 20 years? Even the most sheltered psycho-fundy kids would have to have been raised in a pit in the basement to have never heard of Barney.

That was my point. Everyone knows the song, yet admin tried to backhand insult me for knowing it.
Sorry, just a little tongue-in-cheek humor.

So your answer is:
"Speak Life" is a Christian song because it was written by a Christian artist and hit #1 on the Christian billboard charts.

A Christian song, about Christian themes, recorded by a professing Christian musician, on a label founded by other Christian musicians to distribute other Christian music in Christian bookstores, for purchase by and the enjoyment of a Christian audience.

And you question its Christian-ness why, specifically?

So we are all in agreement then? Nothing in the song specifically makes it Christian - only external things that aren't apparent while reading the lyrics.

At least you've all admitted to being wrong finally.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

So we are all in agreement then? Nothing in the song specifically makes it Christian - only external things that aren't apparent while reading the lyrics.

Since you do not accept the fact that "speaking life and hope" are specifically Christian themes, perhaps you could share with us why they are not.

I would also be curious to know why Christians on this forum think that the phrases of "speaking life and hope" are best regarded as secular.

They are Christian themes. So is love and family (in the Barney song). Many songs have Christian themes (love, peace, hope, etc.) but are not Christian.

So your position is that mentioning a positive attribute from the Bible (a "Christian theme") makes a song Christian.

To which I refuted by posting the Barney song to show you that you are wrong.

 

[rsc2a]

Gnosticism: Showing up in churches for 2000 years and counting!

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

So we are all in agreement then? Nothing in the song specifically makes it Christian - only external things that aren't apparent while reading the lyrics.

Since you do not accept the fact that "speaking life and hope" are specifically Christian themes, perhaps you could share with us why they are not.

I would also be curious to know why Christians on this forum think that the phrases of "speaking life and hope" are best regarded as secular.

You are trying to present a dichotomy no one else is.

First of all, the Bible doers not tell us to "speak life". What it does say is:
John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So, the words that He spake are spirit and life. The scriptures are spirit and life. But we are not "speaking spirit and life". We are showing others spirit and life as we explain the scriptures.

The song says "speak life", the closest Biblical principle I can ascribe to it is "speak words that are a blessing.

You on the other habd are defending this as though Maher is establishing a cardinal doctrine such as the trinity. He is not. He is simply making a vague general Bible principle, hardly the same at all.

 

[Ransom]

So we are all in agreement then? Nothing in the song specifically makes it Christian - only external things that aren't apparent while reading the lyrics.

It's uncanny, how frequently a straw man argument is prefaced with "So we are all in agreement then?"

No, we're not in agreement, and you apparently are a little light in the intellectual-honesty department.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

So we are all in agreement then? Nothing in the song specifically makes it Christian - only external things that aren't apparent while reading the lyrics.

It's uncanny, how frequently a straw man argument is prefaced with "So we are all in agreement then?"

No, we're not in agreement, and you apparently are a little light in the intellectual-honesty department.

It's more fun that way.
(And you were the one who said that only external things, such as being played on a Christian radio station makes it Christian. While you probably didn't mean to prove my point, you did agree with me.)

 

[ALAYMAN]

Well... what more can we say? These posters cannot recognize biblical themes. We have sure learned that they know their Ozzy, Barney and druggie songs!

Sometimes there's very little difference between what I've seen in Ozzy, or gangsta rap, and the kind of stuff you seem to support.  Of course, itz all good homie, cuz the Bible don't be sayin' dat "thou shalt not imitate the trappings of 50 cent".

 

[lnf]

I have followed this thread through its 40 pages.  What a grief to the spirit it has become! 

As for the TobyMac song, I must say that I haven’t actually listened to it, although I did see the posted lyrics.

It seems to me that several of those who have been called out for labeling the song as “secular” have actually said much more than that, which seems to have been lost in the 40 pages of back-and forth.  It seems pretty clear to me that they have claimed that the lyrics do not espouse an exclusively Christian ideal.  In fact, I thought that they clearly showed that the idea of “speak life” is so universal that it can be found in various and sundry religions, including Christianity, and also within an atheistic mindset. 

No, I’m not going to quote from religious writings to prove my point.  But I will mention Facebook.  I used to play games on Facebook, so I have had “friends” from all over the world.  They came from all walks of life…Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan, some dabbled a bit in every religion, and some were decidedly atheist.  And they all posted memes…

…Give a smile…you never know what someone else is going through.  Say a kind word…it may make all the difference to someone having a bad day.  Watch out for Karma…it will come back to bite you.  What goes around comes around. 

These examples are only those I remember off-hand, but you should get the idea.  Each of these statements were given in a similar context as “speak life”, or “be nice”, if you prefer. 

So, to bring my thoughts to conclusion, I can understand where some might think that “Speak Life” is not a song they would consider as “Christian Worship Music”.  In any case, simply due to genre, the song would not be considered appropriate in a traditional service.  And as Admin has already stated, it is not used in his church’s traditional service.  Now, if I were to attend a contemporary service, I might not be very surprised to hear it, even if I didn’t personally find it “worship-worthy”. 

I don’t understand why we have all this contention over worship music.  Frankly, I consider it a matter of personal preference, seeing as how it seems Scripture neither espouses nor forbids specific genres of music to be fit for worship.  I believe it is up to each congregation to give their input to their pastor.  And if I personally found the worship music in my church to be inappropriate, I could always vote with my feet…

 

[Mathew Ward]

I thought this might help. It is Toby Mac talking about the song "Speak Life"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vVnJpR5AHy8