For clarification!

[Smellin Coffee]

Why do you accept Luke's gospel but not his early history of the church?

Who says I don't accept Acts? I believe as a historian, he recorded it as he understood it. Did he get all the facts exactly right? Probably not (his version of Paul's life immediately following conversion differs from Paul's version). I would have to assume the same with Luke's gospel.

 

[rsc2a]

And yet in Acts we have the Church sending Paul out as a missionary...

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Tarheel:
You must feel some empathy for God concerning His plan.
One man, Paul, sidetracked and led the church astray for 2000 years.
Thankfully, you, at least, have seen the light.

Smellin:
No need to be snarky. I am not expecting anyone to agree with me. This is my opinion through my study. If I were coming out of Judaism, Catholicism or the Muslim religion, who have had their tenets around about as long (or longer), I would be lauded for getting out of steeped erroneous tradition. Who is to say that Evangelical Christianity hasn't been erroneous since the beginning?

Doubting Paul's authority goes all the way back to the Corinthian church, so it isn't some new-fangled notion. Marcionism in the first two centuries also pervaded Christianity. If there was no conflict of message between Paul and Jesus, why didn't they hold to the same salvific Gospel message?

And "feel empathy for God"? Where the heck does that come from? God can do whatever He pleases, whenever He chooses. If he allowed the deceiver in His creation of the Garden, what makes you think He wouldn't allow it in His creation of the church? Ever read the parable of the wheat and tares? Who are we to determine which is which? Won't God "weed it out" (no pun intended) in the end of His own volition?

And if Christianity is more than merely adhering consent to traditional Christian tenets, then wouldn't it seem reasonable to see people of different belief systems as a part of God's kingdom?

I am not the source of truth by any means. It makes sense that I am wrong in some areas and probably right in others. I would contend that goes for each and every person who ever lived. None of us understand what God is, much less who He is. Nor should we. This is why I will lean on the teachings of Jesus and let everything else run through that filter. I'm sure others will come to a different conclusion and I'm OK with that. That is not my circus, not my monkey.

My intention was not to be 'snarky', but to state the bottom line of what you believe.
God, who I also believe to be sovereign , has...in your estimation...had His message hijacked by Paul.
And the entire leadership of the church have been deceived for generations!

But, you have seen the light.

Where have I misstated your position?

To use your hijack analogy, you must believe God's message has been hijacked by the Pope, by Joseph Smith, etc. and their churches/leadership have also been deceived for generations.

Actually, I don't believe in such a hijack. I believe in the principle found in the wheat and tares, that both will GROW TOGETHER. Could involve Pauline doctrine, but that is merely speculative at best on my part and may not be the case at all. God will take care of it all in the end. He never promised "purity of church doctrine" but asked us for faith to trust Jesus and what He taught and to love one another.

"Seen the light"? I'm not the Illuminati.

At the risk of being snarky, I'll have to disagree.

To ascribe the doctrine of salvation by grace thru faith alone is hardly the equivalent of Joseph Smith's golden tablets or the Pope selling indulgences. We are referencing orthodox soteriology and foundational truth.

You are the arbiter of truth in your religion.
Luke is spot on in his gospel, but deceived and a deceiver in Acts.

If what you believe is true, there has been no orthodoxy since the resurrection.....if there even was a resurrection.
I think we've said all there is to say about this subject as well as about Homosexuality.

Disagreeing with me is not being snarky. Sorry about the assumption from the earlier post, it just seemed sarcastic to me. I misread it so I apologize.

I've said it before, we ALL are arbiters of our own truth. Granted, some may fall down a line of like thinkers but do you really believe everything in the Bible is applicable for doctrinal instruction today? If so, do the women in your church wear head coverings when praying? There are those that do practice it but you decide not to do so. Using your personal hermeneutic, you come up with your position. Nothing wrong with doing that because I am doing the same thing. We just come down on different conclusions probably because we are using different hermeneutics.

The idea of Smith and Pope, the comparison was the ideal of time, same as fundamental Christianity. If God would allow "His Word" to be manipulated by those guys, why would he not allow it be manipulated by others? (FYI, this isn't the first time scribes interpolated God's laws - Jer. 8:8).

Anyway, I've got to run, probably for the day. Maybe pick up tomorrow if you so desire.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What we are seeing here is the end result of the Hyles "1, 2, 3, pray after me" evangelism that produces false "conversions." These poor deluded people have no way to understand the bible for the bible is "spiritually discerned" and it is the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, in the saved person, who "will guide you into all truth."

Typical fundamentalist rhetoric. Its not wonder so many turn their nose up at the challenge of the Gospel to believe...... When it gets a little tough, most just want to through out the old....

"if you had the Holy Ghost, You'd believe just like I would".

Pitiful.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Smellin:
Anyway, I've got to run, probably for the day. Maybe pick up tomorrow if you so desire.

I'm good. Thanks.

 

[LongGone]

Whether you realize this or not.... There are some that combine the practice of homosexuality and pedophilia. Ever heard of NAMBLA? In fact, David Thorstad is the founder of NAMBLA and was the former president of "New York’s Gay Activists Alliance".

Do you know of any Catholics priests that might have a problem with this?

Do not know anyone gay or straight that would not consider David Thorstad or NAMBLA reprehensible.

I can't deny that being "gay" has changed somewhat in the last decade. It has. It had to change in order to gain main stream support. However, I'm probably a little older than you. I can remember a different time. A time in the not too distant past in which homosexuals generally didn't have problem with most anything another gay person choose to do. The raunchier the better.

Do you remember any of this?
[/quote]

I am 58 so my guess is that you are not that much older than me. Rest of what you stated is your own opinion based on nothing. That fact that the gay people you were familiar with lived this way when you were younger is total speculation. To qualify as the last decade is pretty absurd. What has changed is the realization that many gay people chose monogamous relationships and are more open so more people are familiar with these relationships. 

 

[LongGone]

Do not know anyone gay or straight that would not consider David Thorstad or NAMBLA reprehensible.

I can't deny that being "gay" has changed somewhat in the last decade. It has. It had to change in order to gain main stream support. However, I'm probably a little older than you. I can remember a different time. A time in the not too distant past in which homosexuals generally didn't have problem with most anything another gay person choose to do. The raunchier the better.

Do you remember any of this?

I do and it is not gone. The "gay pride" parades are a perfect example of in your face promoting and proselytizing for deviance. All about pushing boundaries.

Of course heterosexual people do the same with Mardi Gras but they are at least honest enough to admit that they are celebrating and promoting debauchery.

i rmember it.... and i;m not even that old..... ???... the gay pride parades in honolulu were... and still are.... nothing but open displays of obscene and raunchy behavior done while marching down the street for all the world to see........ granted they have toned down in recent years.... but when i first move here in the early 1990s they were something you shouldn;t even let children witness.... much less take them to see.......and yet many people did....and still do...... 

It is a stretch to say any gay pride parade represents all or even the majority of gay people. Straight people have naked conferences but that does not represent the majority of straight people. There have been and always will be raunchy straight and gay people.

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

"if you had the Holy Ghost, You'd believe just like I would".

Pitiful.

Yeah, except that is not what I said.

Pitiful.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"if you had the Holy Ghost, You'd believe just like I would".

Pitiful.

Yeah, except that is not what I said.

Pitiful.

It was pretty close

SM does have a problem with many orthodox beliefs.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am 58 so my guess is that you are not that much older than me. Rest of what you stated is your own opinion based on nothing. That fact that the gay people you were familiar with lived this way when you were younger is total speculation. To qualify as the last decade is pretty absurd. What has changed is the realization that many gay people chose monogamous relationships and are more open so more people are familiar with these relationships. 

You're being entirely ridiculous. There are far more "gay" people today than even a decade ago. Heck, there's been close to a billion person increase in the world population over the last decade. Its not because there where millions of monogamous relationships hiding in the background just waiting to come forward. It fact, its rather rare to find a long term monogamous relationship among homosexuals. I know of a few. I personally know one that just ended....that lasted close to 20 years.

I'll be honest, Human beings generally have a lot of problems that have an influence on long term relationships. I do believe homosexuals have MORE baggage that causes issues in a long term relationships. You can say what you want to say. Scream if you want. Sin causes problems. The writer of proverbs said "can a man take fire into his bosom and his clothes not be burned"? You can't live a sinful homosexual life and claim you've never had a problem and being "gay" liberated you. Homosexuals are the servants of sin. They are not alone. Liars are the servants of sin too. Sin never helps anyone.

 

[LongGone]

I am 58 so my guess is that you are not that much older than me. Rest of what you stated is your own opinion based on nothing. That fact that the gay people you were familiar with lived this way when you were younger is total speculation. To qualify as the last decade is pretty absurd. What has changed is the realization that many gay people chose monogamous relationships and are more open so more people are familiar with these relationships. 

You're being entirely ridiculous. There are far more "gay" people today than even a decade ago. Heck, there's been close to a billion person increase in the world population over the last decade. Its not because there where millions of monogamous relationships hiding in the background just waiting to come forward. It fact, its rather rare to find a long term monogamous relationship among homosexuals. I know of a few. I personally know one that just ended....that lasted close to 20 years.

I'll be honest, Human beings generally have a lot of problems that have an influence on long term relationships. I do believe homosexuals have MORE baggage that causes issues in a long term relationships. You can say what you want to say. Scream if you want. Sin causes problems. The writer of proverbs said "can a man take fire into his bosom and his clothes not be burned"? You can't live a sinful homosexual life and claim you've never had a problem and being "gay" liberated you. Homosexuals are the servants of sin. They are not alone. Liars are the servants of sin too. Sin never helps anyone.

I really doubt the actual percentage of gay people have changed. I also think that you that I am, you are and Aleshanee have reached the point where we are viewing everything through our own viewpoint. At this point none of us can produce scripture or validated statistics for the points we are trying to make. I entered this conversation not because I believe that you can make a case from scripture for homosexuality but because people in the original thread and it continued to a lesser degree on this thread were twisting scripture to make it say what they wanted it to rather than what it actually said and in my opinion the conversation had turned to gay bashing.  What was being said did not represent all gay couples especially some that I had worked with for years and considered my friends.

 

[rsc2a]

It is a stretch to say any gay pride parade represents all or even the majority of gay people.

if you say so...... ..... but how often do you hear a openly gay person condemn what goes on during a gay pride parade?...... have you ever heard a gay person say the gay pride parade types don;t represent them?........ or that they don;t want to be associated with them?.......

Yes, multiple times. Yes, multiple times. Yes, multiple times.

[quote author=aleshanee]

Straight people have naked conferences but that does not represent the majority of straight people.

what is so "straight" about that?.......[/quote]

Based on the majority of gay people I know, about as much as gay pride parades represent their views.

[quote author=aleshanee]

There have been and always will be raunchy straight and gay people.

that is true....... but which group has the higher percentage of raunchy types among their ranks?......... there is something about wearing your sexuality as a badge or symbol of your identity that tends to go hand in hand with raunchiness...... regardless of what kind of sexual attractions one has.....[/quote]

Sounds like the prototypical college frat boy has the homosexual beat in spades.

 

[Bob H]

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother "Paul" also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the OTHER scriptures, unto their own destruction"


That settles it for me

 

[BandGuy]

Concerning my positions in these debates, if and WHEN I err, I pray it is always on the side of the distribution of grace and mercy. Sometimes that means living in a world of gray instead of being dogmatic in favor of one side over the other.

Grace and mercy does not = turning the other way, accepting their sin and acting as if there are gray areas in their sin when the Bible says otherwise. That's the cowardly way out. But, biblical grace and mercy is quite the opposite. Biblical grace, mercy and love proclaims the truth and calls for repentance even when doing so will cost you a friendship. Biblical grace, mercy and love cares more about the truth and repentance than popularity.

 

[BandGuy]

Tarheel, I appreciate the clarification. I wouldn't attend a church like that, because to me it would seem too homophobic, but your position is about as good as I would expect from any fundamental-ish Baptist.

:-*

You wouldn't attend a Church like this because they actually the Bible. Just sayin'.  You're liberal theology is unscriptural.

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

It was pretty close

Not by a long shot.

SM does have a problem with many orthodox beliefs.

Duh!

 

[subllibrm]

Tarheel, I appreciate the clarification. I wouldn't attend a church like that, because to me it would seem too homophobic, but your position is about as good as I would expect from any fundamental-ish Baptist.

:-*

You wouldn't attend a Church like this because they actually the Bible. Just sayin'.  You're liberal theology is unscriptural.

They actually _________ the Bible.  Could you elaborate?

Ooh ooh, mad libs. I love that game!

Um, let's see.

They actually glitter coat the Bible

 

[BandGuy]

Tarheel, I appreciate the clarification. I wouldn't attend a church like that, because to me it would seem too homophobic, but your position is about as good as I would expect from any fundamental-ish Baptist.

:-*

You wouldn't attend a Church like this because they actually the Bible. Just sayin'.  You're liberal theology is unscriptural.

They actually _________ the Bible.  Could you elaborate?

Believe... Doh!

 

[LongGone]

well then i must say...... you guys must have a much more conservative community of LGBT.. (willing to promote a lifestyle God calls abomination)... in your city than we do here in honolulu........  ??? ....... not even the most raunchy of college frat boys can match them here... and they would be arrested if they even tried....... but being open lgbt has given many of them here an authorized flash card.... (pardon the pun)... in the eyes of many people including law enforcement who are afraid to say anything lest they get smacked with a lawsuit......... ..but then this is considered one of the battle ground states for the gay advocates pushing the lgbt agenda....... they even started calling it san fran of the mid pacific...... which is sad..... because i really like san francisco.... some parts of it......  :-\
[/quote]

I know nothing about the LGBT community in Honolulu. I moved to Kentucky from Harrisburg, PA. I lived in the Harrisburg area for over 34 years. The last six years I lived in the city in the Midtown section. The gay index for Harrisburg is 169 and the gay index for Honolulu is 99. The index for gay men in Harrisburg is 208. The most concentrated gay population is in the Midtown section of the city. I was a member of Friends of Midtown which was the neighborhood group that worked to improve the neighborhood. I say all this to make the point that while I do not have the same experience as you I have had the opportunity to work with a fair amount of gay people. My opinions are drawn from these interactions. I am by no means an expert.

The gay index is a comparative score based on the percentage of people reporting in the 2000 US Census that they live in a same sex partnership. A score of 100 is the national norm.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother "Paul" also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the OTHER scriptures, unto their own destruction"


That settles it for me

I addressed that passage here:

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/did-the-apostle-paul-ever-pray-an-imprecatory-prayer/msg55123/#msg55123

and here:

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/bible-versions/my-words-shall-not-pass-away/msg49388/#msg49388