Full Time Ministry

[subllibrm]

Is "suffering" to be expected by those who are in full time Christian ministry?

*I am working through the thought process that results in the clergy/laity divide.

 

[Ransom]

"Expected" meaning "should come as no surprise"? Sure, Jesus, Paul, and James said as much.

"Expected" meaning "mandatory"? No. We're not Roman Catholic. Our clergy don't take vows of poverty. There's plenty in the Bible about the right use of money, including warnings about trusting too much in wealth or desiring to acquire much of it. But nothing that disallows a minister of the Gospel from living comfortably, if that is what God has willed for him.

 

[cpizzle]

Preachers often talk of "suffering for Jesus" when they are actually just reaping the results of bad decisions.

 

[Ransom]

Preachers often talk of "suffering for Jesus" when they are actually just reaping the results of bad decisions.

Or getting justified pushback for being a jerk.

 

[cpizzle]

I will be serious for a moment....

For the past 6 years, I have pastored a church of 50-60 people.  I work full time at a secular job and my church is very generous to me as well. 

I oftentimes feel convicted about how good I actually have it.  My church members love me and I have not had an angry member in over 4 years.  I am well off financially and take 2 nice vacations each year.  I am certainly not rich, but I am doing much better than almost everyone I went to Bible college with. 

I don't feel bad about what I have, I consider it a blessing from God.  Pastors aren't required to be poor or self flagellating.  My conviction stems from others in the ministry who are also called by God to their respected circumstances.  Especially missionaries who sacrifice everything to bring the Gospel to the unreached world. 

Look, if someone refuses to work outside of their church, has 9 kids, and won't let their wife earn anything beyond a Christian School teachers salary, then I can't truly feel sorry for them.  If someone quits a successful career because God called them to serve as an Assistant Pastor or to live overseas as a missionary, then I do feel guilty.  I get the "good life" while they struggle to make simple ends meet. 
 

 

[Walt]

Is "suffering" to be expected by those who are in full time Christian ministry?

*I am working through the thought process that results in the clergy/laity divide.

Yes, but not only by them... it should be expected by all Christians.

Again, defining terms would be helpful -- what is meant by "suffering"?  We live an a sin-soaked world, and we all have sin natures, so we will likely be disappointed by someone during our lives.  We live in bodies cursed by sin - they break down, which is another form of suffering.

I'm not sure why people would think suffering is unique to Christians in full-time ministry -- by which I assume you mean Christians who early their living through a ministry, because, in a sense, all Christians are in a full-time ministry.

 

[Walt]

I oftentimes feel convicted about how good I actually have it.  My church members love me and I have not had an angry member in over 4 years.

That' amazing -- what do you do, run 'em off before they become members?

 

[subllibrm]

Is "suffering" to be expected by those who are in full time Christian ministry?

*I am working through the thought process that results in the clergy/laity divide.

Yes, but not only by them... it should be expected by all Christians.

Again, defining terms would be helpful -- what is meant by "suffering"?  We live an a sin-soaked world, and we all have sin natures, so we will likely be disappointed by someone during our lives.  We live in bodies cursed by sin - they break down, which is another form of suffering.

I'm not sure why people would think suffering is unique to Christians in full-time ministry -- by which I assume you mean Christians who early their living through a ministry, because, in a sense, all Christians are in a full-time ministry.

You pretty much got it. The concern I have is for those "in ministry" who refer to a them and us divide. "They don't understand what it means to be in  ministry" being a common refrain. Not that there isn't a similar attitude on the layman side but the one I hear a lot lately is from "within" ministry.

I guess I am wondering if there is a secret hand shake that I missed out on learning.  ;D

 

[BibleGal]

It would be difficult to work Full Time if you are a Church Elder. Paul expects all men to work to support themselves and their family

A church is ran by a group of Elders (Male)  so in the best circumstances, there should be no one assuming a huge burden

All other men of god to take the reins for a while when it's time. Be fair

This volunteer position isn't meant to be forever.

 

[Walt]

It would be difficult to work Full Time if you are a Church Elder. Paul expects all men to work to support themselves and their family

A church is ran by a group of Elders (Male)  so in the best circumstances, there should be no one assuming a huge burden

All other men of god to take the reins for a while when it's time. Be fair

This volunteer position isn't meant to be forever.

Are you equating Elder with Pastor?

And why do you say that it is a voluntary position?

Not all men are qualified, and even among those that are, some men are terrible with organization; others are bad with managing finances; others are very bad people persons.

So, if a church motorically rotates men in and out of leadership, it could be bad for the church, in my opinion.

 

[subllibrm]

How about your thoughts on this: "They don't understand what it means to be in ministry"

Does this mean that those who are in a ministry that pays are somehow different than those who are only volunteers? Again the clergy/laity distinction seems divisive and unnecessary.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

How about your thoughts on this: "They don't understand what it means to be in ministry"

Does this mean that those who are in a ministry that pays are somehow different than those who are only volunteers? Again the clergy/laity distinction seems divisive and unnecessary.

Yet, you're the one who broached the subject.

 

[subllibrm]

How about your thoughts on this: "They don't understand what it means to be in ministry"

Does this mean that those who are in a ministry that pays are somehow different than those who are only volunteers? Again the clergy/laity distinction seems divisive and unnecessary.

Yet, you're the one who broached the subject.

Yes?

So have you heard this line of thinking? Do you agree or disagree?

The OP is a question so what is wrong with focusing it down further?

 

[Walt]

How about your thoughts on this: "They don't understand what it means to be in ministry"

Does this mean that those who are in a ministry that pays are somehow different than those who are only volunteers? Again the clergy/laity distinction seems divisive and unnecessary.

I agree with you... but it's not just clergy/laity division.

I have heard that statement, or variations on it - "no one that's not been in the ministry knows what it means to be in the ministry" comes to mind.

There are two sides (maybe facets) to this.  It's probably true that the ministry has its own unique burdens (and blessings)... and on an even larger scale, no one knows what it is like to be anyone else; no one knows what it is like to be me: I have weaknesses, sins, foibles, prejudices, strengths, experiences, etc that are unique to me.

However, so often that statement is used as some kind of rationale for something-or-other.  For example: "the ministry has burdens that you cannot imagine; that's why I need a place to relax" (i.e., vacation home, when church members are barely able to afford a house).  Or "...that's why I deserve a huge bonus" (and so on).

Or sometimes it is a plea for sympathy, but anyone could make this.  Fireman and policeman could easily make the same plea, with some good justification.

Personally, I've never fully bought into such boasting, and, in my opinion, a pastor is much better off not making such claims.

 

[cpizzle]

"Ministry" is a broad term.  All Christians are "in the ministry" in the sense that we have a work to do for Christ.

However, when Paul mentioned that God "put him in the ministry", it is obviously speaking of a higher calling. 

We are all called to service, but few are called to "leadership."  Leadership in the ministry does carry it's own set of burdens and blessings.  This is especially true in "Full Time" Christian service.  The expectations placed upon FT pastors and missionaries are enormous.  In IFB circles, the "earthly reward" is hardly commiserate with the "labor."  The constant judging of the leader and his family is probably the greatest cause of stress and misery.  Every service, they are put on trial and one "slip up" can lose them an influential member.  Even worse for FT assistants.  The "Man of God" micromanages every aspect of their lives and pays them very low wages.  Without the comfort of the Holy Ghost and a full reliance on divine grace, many of them burn out and become casualties.  Or, they become pastors and joyfully wield the authority against others.  They were beaten with whips, they will beat their assistants with scorpions.

 

[subllibrm]

"Ministry" is a broad term.  All Christians are "in the ministry" in the sense that we have a work to do for Christ.

However, when Paul mentioned that God "put him in the ministry", it is obviously speaking of a higher calling. 

We are all called to service, but few are called to "leadership."  Leadership in the ministry does carry it's own set of burdens and blessings.  This is especially true in "Full Time" Christian service.  The expectations placed upon FT pastors and missionaries are enormous.  In IFB circles, the "earthly reward" is hardly commiserate with the "labor."  The constant judging of the leader and his family is probably the greatest cause of stress and misery.  Every service, they are put on trial and one "slip up" can lose them an influential member.  Even worse for FT assistants.  The "Man of God" micromanages every aspect of their lives and pays them very low wages.  Without the comfort of the Holy Ghost and a full reliance on divine grace, many of them burn out and become casualties.  Or, they become pastors and joyfully wield the authority against others.  They were beaten with whips, they will beat their assistants with scorpions.

Oh stop sugar coating it. 

 

[Twisted]

"Ministry" is a broad term.  All Christians are "in the ministry" in the sense that we have a work to do for Christ.

However, when Paul mentioned that God "put him in the ministry", it is obviously speaking of a higher calling. 

We are all called to service, but few are called to "leadership."  Leadership in the ministry does carry it's own set of burdens and blessings.  This is especially true in "Full Time" Christian service.  The expectations placed upon FT pastors and missionaries are enormous.  In IFB circles, the "earthly reward" is hardly commiserate with the "labor."  The constant judging of the leader and his family is probably the greatest cause of stress and misery.  Every service, they are put on trial and one "slip up" can lose them an influential member.  Even worse for FT assistants.  The "Man of God" micromanages every aspect of their lives and pays them very low wages.  Without the comfort of the Holy Ghost and a full reliance on divine grace, many of them burn out and become casualties.  Or, they become pastors and joyfully wield the authority against others.  They were beaten with whips, they will beat their assistants with scorpions.

So true and so nauseating. 

 

[PFFlyer]

How about your thoughts on this: "They don't understand what it means to be in ministry"

Tedious whining of the immature.

Does this mean that those who are in a ministry that pays are somehow different than those who are only volunteers? Again the clergy/laity distinction seems divisive and unnecessary.

?Divisive and unnecessary? is a pretty mild description of that hateful and destructive doctrine. 
About the only thing that can be said for it is that it's been providing fair proof of Paul's prophesied apostasy in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 for several centuries now.

 

[Walt]

We are all called to service, but few are called to "leadership."  Leadership in the ministry does carry it's own set of burdens and blessings.  This is especially true in "Full Time" Christian service.  The expectations placed upon FT pastors and missionaries are enormous.  In IFB circles, the "earthly reward" is hardly commiserate with the "labor."  The constant judging of the leader and his family is probably the greatest cause of stress and misery.  Every service, they are put on trial and one "slip up" can lose them an influential member.  Even worse for FT assistants.  The "Man of God" micromanages every aspect of their lives and pays them very low wages.  Without the comfort of the Holy Ghost and a full reliance on divine grace, many of them burn out and become casualties.  Or, they become pastors and joyfully wield the authority against others.  They were beaten with whips, they will beat their assistants with scorpions.

Let's not forget the blessings... most pastors that I know of take off Mondays - most of the church members don't get ANY day off.  They "work" their secular job Mon-Fri, do church visitation/soul-winning/bus work on Sat, and work their own "ministry" on Sunday (playing the piano, teaching SS, other items).  So, they get NO days off at all, while the pastor gets off one day, and, usually, he can set his own hours and times.

In addition, many hotels or vacation spots have free housing (or deep discounts for ministers).

They don't have discounts for red-headed, Texan-speaking middle-aged guys, so I have to pay full price.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

We are all called to service, but few are called to "leadership."  Leadership in the ministry does carry it's own set of burdens and blessings.  This is especially true in "Full Time" Christian service.  The expectations placed upon FT pastors and missionaries are enormous.  In IFB circles, the "earthly reward" is hardly commiserate with the "labor."  The constant judging of the leader and his family is probably the greatest cause of stress and misery.  Every service, they are put on trial and one "slip up" can lose them an influential member.  Even worse for FT assistants.  The "Man of God" micromanages every aspect of their lives and pays them very low wages.  Without the comfort of the Holy Ghost and a full reliance on divine grace, many of them burn out and become casualties.  Or, they become pastors and joyfully wield the authority against others.  They were beaten with whips, they will beat their assistants with scorpions.

Let's not forget the blessings... most pastors that I know of take off Mondays - most of the church members don't get ANY day off.  They "work" their secular job Mon-Fri, do church visitation/soul-winning/bus work on Sat, and work their own "ministry" on Sunday (playing the piano, teaching SS, other items).  So, they get NO days off at all, while the pastor gets off one day, and, usually, he can set his own hours and times.

In addition, many hotels or vacation spots have free housing (or deep discounts for ministers).

They don't have discounts for red-headed, Texan-speaking middle-aged guys, so I have to pay full price.

I would love to have a list of the free housing or deep discounts...I had no idea they were available. Except for my AAA discount, I pay full price.