God and Government

  • Thread starter Thread starter Timothy
  • Start date Start date
Proverb 21:1The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

I think He is very active in government
 
Recovering IFB said:
Proverb 21:1The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

I think He is very active in government
Click to expand...

The verse I though of right away!

Also Romans 13...public servants are ministers of God...

I believe Christians should be actively involved in their government.
 
Recovering IFB said:
Proverb 21:1The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

I think He is very active in government
Click to expand...

That came to my mind when creating this thread.

So - the evil we see in government - does God just allow it, or does he somehow will it to happen.
 
Recovering IFB said:
I believe He allows it,.... For whatever reasons He see fit
Click to expand...

Just like he allows bad in our own personal lives. I can see that.
 
[quote author=Timothy]So - the evil we see in government - does God just allow it, or does he somehow will it to happen.[/quote]

"Yes"
 
All through history God has used all kinds of leaders and governments to fulfill His purpose...think of Nebuchanezzar, Pharaoh, Cyrus...He still does today...that certainly does not mean God leads them to make evil decisions or God is responsible for their decisions.
 
aleshanee said:
Timothy said:
How much exactly does God control our governmental leadership?
Click to expand...

very little.... unless you want to believe barak obama is acting under the authority and direction of God......  because if you do.... then you all better go back and erase every negative thing and snide remark you have ever written online about him...... ....why?....... because according to your own words and what you say you believe you have all spoken ill of an anointed servant of God.... .......people should think before they make blanket statements about where they believe their allegiance lies.... they might be held to the conditions of that statement whether it;s a valid one or not.....
Click to expand...

Just a little devil's advocate here, but who's to say that God isn't using B.O. as an instrument of judgment, like He did with Saul when Israel wanted a human king against His wishes?  He gave them what they wanted, even though what they wanted brought turmoil and hardship.
 
aleshanee said:
ALAYMAN said:
aleshanee said:
Timothy said:
How much exactly does God control our governmental leadership?
Click to expand...

very little.... unless you want to believe barak obama is acting under the authority and direction of God......  because if you do.... then you all better go back and erase every negative thing and snide remark you have ever written online about him...... ....why?....... because according to your own words and what you say you believe you have all spoken ill of an anointed servant of God.... .......people should think before they make blanket statements about where they believe their allegiance lies.... they might be held to the conditions of that statement whether it;s a valid one or not.....
Click to expand...

Just a little devil's advocate here, but who's to say that God isn't using B.O. as an instrument of judgment, like He did with Saul when Israel wanted a human king against His wishes?  He gave them what they wanted, even though what they wanted brought turmoil and hardship.
Click to expand...

ok.... but in that same line of devils advocacy... (remember i was actually a devil here for a couple of hours yesterday ;))... if christians really believe that.... and are convinced that barak obama is acting as the instrument of Gods judgement, should they not have a little more respect for him than they do?.......
Click to expand...

You bring up a good point.
 
aleshanee said:
ok.... but in that same line of devils advocacy... (remember i was actually a devil here for a couple of hours yesterday ;))... if christians really believe that.... and are convinced that barak obama is acting as the instrument of Gods judgement, should they not have a little more respect for him than they do?.......
Click to expand...


Mitch Ryder sung about those she-devils. :D

I believe that honor and respect ought to go to the office, but of course that doesn't mean keeping quiet about policies that are evil.  Regardless of that, my point was that God indeed sovereignly orchestrates the affairs of government, even if it means allowing evil to prosper for a time.
 
aleshanee said:
ALAYMAN said:
aleshanee said:
ok.... but in that same line of devils advocacy... (remember i was actually a devil here for a couple of hours yesterday ;))... if christians really believe that.... and are convinced that barak obama is acting as the instrument of Gods judgement, should they not have a little more respect for him than they do?.......
Click to expand...


Mitch Ryder sung about those she-devils. :D

I believe that honor and respect ought to go to the office, but of course that doesn't mean keeping quiet about policies that are evil.  Regardless of that, my point was that God indeed sovereignly orchestrates the affairs of government, even if it means allowing evil to prosper for a time.
Click to expand...

allowing?... yes..... always orchestrating?.... no..... those are two totally separate concepts.... both respect that God is sovereign.. but one makes Him a micromanager along the lines of how many calvinists view Him..... and it would also make Him the author of the very polices you say might be evil and that we as christians should not be quiet about......

all im saying is... if christians are going to go about claiming to truly believe some of the things i have seen them say concerning what part God plays in government then they should think carefully about what that means and act accordingly...... otherwise it;s nothing but a lot of high minded stuff to lay on other people they want to impress or influence.....  without ever feeling any responsibility to live up to the higher principles expressed in those supposed beliefs......
Click to expand...

I'd say we are much closer to being in nearly perfect agreement than any semantic differences we may have.  The simple way I'd express God's sovereignty is that He never causes anybody to sin.  That is of their own free choice, but even in their choice, God oversees, and has the ability if He chose, to override their choice, and He certainly takes the choices of evil men and uses for His ultimate plan, which is clearly illustrated by Joseph, and best by Christ's crucifixion.  Again, God does not cause anybody to sin, He is not the author of it, yet He takes it and uses it in some ultimate sense to bring about His providential plan, and that includes leaders and kings choices, as well as commoners.
 
aleshanee said:
i agree with that....  i believe proverbs 21-1 is talking about how God has that ability to override a kings choice if He wants to... but i don;t believe it is saying.. (as some have suggested)... that He always directs the heart of a king or that He even constantly takes an active part in world governments..... i think history shows there have been a few governments on the world stage throughout history that He took no active part in at all..... He still used what those evil governments did to His glory..... and equipped others to oppose and fight against those governments....... ..
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree.  The idea that God restrains His active blessing on a person, or people groups, is well illustrated in the Romans 1 passage which speaks of how He gives them over to a reprobate mind.

aleshanee said:

the thing i object to whenever this issue comes up is that inevitably someone... (or a lot of someones).. will point to scriptures like proverbs 21-1 and other scriptures in the Bible and claim they are telling us to always be obedient to civil authority..... i also notice they say it a lot more often when a republican is in office than they do when it;s a democrat... ..... but then i see that same person or persons post a cartoon comparing the president to a monkey... or openly condemning some policy the president supports or has just signed into law... and even telling of how they plan to side step that policy and do exactly the opposite ........ .. and i have to wonder.... do they really believe what they are saying when they quote prov 21-1 and hebrews 13-17 and tell us it applies to all government authority... or is it just something they have learned to use to their own advantage laying it aside at it suits them and picking it up again when it serves their purpose?........

it;s something they should really think about........
Click to expand...

I believe that Christians have to act according to their conscience, and the Scriptures in regards to the appropriate level of civil disobedience.  I'm certainly glad that those Christian leaders of the 19th and 20th centuries like Wilberforce sought to actively defy the government in regards to the heinous sin of slavery.  And there's no doubt per the Acts 5 passages that we ought to obey God rather than men in matters of proclaiming the gospel, but some of the things that Christians have used to proclaim their "rights" have more to do with politics than religious freedom.  In those cases, I think that rendering unto Caesar would be more appropriate to honor Christ.
 
Timothy said:
aleshanee said:
ALAYMAN said:
aleshanee said:
Timothy said:
How much exactly does God control our governmental leadership?
Click to expand...

very little.... unless you want to believe barak obama is acting under the authority and direction of God......  because if you do.... then you all better go back and erase every negative thing and snide remark you have ever written online about him...... ....why?....... because according to your own words and what you say you believe you have all spoken ill of an anointed servant of God.... .......people should think before they make blanket statements about where they believe their allegiance lies.... they might be held to the conditions of that statement whether it;s a valid one or not.....
Click to expand...

Just a little devil's advocate here, but who's to say that God isn't using B.O. as an instrument of judgment, like He did with Saul when Israel wanted a human king against His wishes?  He gave them what they wanted, even though what they wanted brought turmoil and hardship.
Click to expand...

ok.... but in that same line of devils advocacy... (remember i was actually a devil here for a couple of hours yesterday ;))... if christians really believe that.... and are convinced that barak obama is acting as the instrument of Gods judgement, should they not have a little more respect for him than they do?.......
Click to expand...

You bring up a good point.
Click to expand...

We should always be respectful to others and respect the office of the presidency.
That does not mean we should not take a stand for what is right. I believe when we disagree with others, whether it is political, moral or spiritual we should do so with class and dignity.
I pray for the president and our leaders everyday and challenge our church to do so as well.
And yes, I believe he is there for a purpose and God in His sovereignty is in control.
 
aleshanee said:
i agree with that....  i believe proverbs 21-1 is talking about how God has that ability to override a kings choice if He wants to... but i don;t believe it is saying.. (as some have suggested)... that He always directs the heart of a king or that He even constantly takes an active part in world governments..... i think history shows there have been a few governments on the world stage throughout history that He took no active part in at all..... He still used what those evil governments did to His glory..... and equipped others to oppose and fight against those governments....... ..

the thing i object to whenever this issue comes up is that inevitably someone... (or a lot of someones).. will point to scriptures like proverbs 21-1 and other scriptures in the Bible and claim they are telling us to always be obedient to civil authority..... i also notice they say it a lot more often when a republican is in office than they do when it;s a democrat... ..... but then i see that same person or persons post a cartoon comparing the president to a monkey... or openly condemning some policy the president supports or has just signed into law... and even telling of how they plan to side step that policy and do exactly the opposite ........ .. and i have to wonder.... do they really believe what they are saying when they quote prov 21-1 and hebrews 13-17 and tell us it applies to all government authority... or is it just something they have learned to use to their own advantage laying it aside at it suits them and picking it up again when it serves their purpose?........

it;s something they should really think about........
Click to expand...

Here's the thing we often forget.  We don't have a king.  In our nation the government isn't our authority, we are the governments authority.  We have elected representatives, not kings.  They are elected to listen to us and be a voice to enact what we the people wish.  We decided a long time ago that we weren't going to submit to kings and queens, we declared our independence and our government was going to be of the people, by the people and for the people.

The government exists for two reasons - To enforce legal contracts and to provide a defense of people's rights (I.e. Against crime or invasion - note invasion, no preemptive strikes allowed, and definitely no invading other countries).  This means they do not exist to teach us, feed us, clothe us, redistribute our income, heal us, indoctrinate us, promote ideologies to us, rob us (tax), kidnap us (conscription), kill us (wars, death penalty), tell us what we can and can't have... Or any other illegitimate functions which they seem to believe they are supposed to be doing. 

Those in government today have forgotten that they are not the authority over people but rather representatives of the people.  So they chip away at our Constitutional rights, one of those rights being freedom of speech and that includes the right to dissent.  The Framers of the Constitution guaranteed freedom of speech and expression to the citizens of the United States with the First Amendment, which reads, in part, "Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech."

We are seeing a massive attack on our 1st, 2nd and 4th Amendment rights right now and we the people need to stand up and remind those in government that we didn't elect them to be our nannies, we didn't elect them to take away our rights, we elected them to be the voice of the people. 

As for the OP, I don't believe God controls our government at all.  We have what we elected and now we have to deal with it and do our best to turn the ship around again. 
 
ThatGirl said:
...As for the OP, I don't believe God controls our government at all.  We have what we elected and now we have to deal with it and do our best to turn the ship around again.
Click to expand...

I agree with much of your post, except the apparent protest against the death penalty, and this last statement that God is not active in the affairs of men collectively governing our country.  I suppose I would want to hear a further explanation of what you mean when you say that He doesn't control it at all, but I think the fact that God cares about the sparrow falling to the ground indicates that His providential hand extends to even minute details of the lives of His creation, government(s) not exempted.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top