God and Government

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Ransom]

In America it is the people who "hold the sword".

So "the people" have the power to declare war? No. It's the elected officials in Congress.

Do "the people" have the ability to sentence criminals to death? No, elected judges do.[/quote]

It seems ThatGirl believes America is a democracy and not a republic.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=Ransom]

In America it is the people who "hold the sword".

So "the people" have the power to declare war? No. It's the elected officials in Congress.

Do "the people" have the ability to sentence criminals to death? No, elected judges do.

It seems ThatGirl believes America is a democracy and not a republic.
[/quote]

It sounds like she described a constitutional republic to me.  Didn't sound much like America today, though.

 

[ALAYMAN]

It sounds like she described a constitutional republic to me.  Didn't sound much like America today, though.

I think the elephant in the room, which Ransom (and I) rightly points out, is that it doesn't matter what the form of government is, but God sovereignly controls the destiny of nations.

 

[christundivided]

It sounds like she described a constitutional republic to me.  Didn't sound much like America today, though.

I think the elephant in the room, which Ransom (and I) rightly points out, is that it doesn't matter what the form of government is, but God sovereignly controls the destiny of nations.

God pretty much controls everyone's destination to some degree. This doesn't mean what you and Ransom think it means.

 

[christundivided]

...As for the OP, I don't believe God controls our government at all.  We have what we elected and now we have to deal with it and do our best to turn the ship around again.

I agree with much of your post, except the apparent protest against the death penalty, and this last statement that God is not active in the affairs of men collectively governing our country.  I suppose I would want to hear a further explanation of what you mean when you say that He doesn't control it at all, but I think the fact that God cares about the sparrow falling to the ground indicates that His providential hand extends to even minute details of the lives of His creation, government(s) not exempted.

Knowing a sparrow falls to the ground and divinely intervening to catching, or reviving that sparrow are entirely two different things.

The facts are, God sets limits. God defines boundaries. This is what we call the "natural order" of this world. Man operates within those boundaries. Often, just as they please. Yes, Sometimes God intervenes. Yes, sometimes God doesn't. Sometimes, there really isn't any noticeable "rhythm or reason" to such actions. Yet, I am certain there are.

Ultimately, it will not go beyond God's own divine choice/will. Yet, it clear, at least to me, that it is also God's choice/will that man make his own choices. Exert his own will.

Mat 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

"without your Father" speaks more to his active providential will than to a passive bystander.

"Without your Father" is a reference to knowledge. You can't make it be anything other than this. God is active, proactive and passive in the affairs of men. You must discern the difference to understand exactly what is happening at any given moment.

 

[ALAYMAN]

It sounds like she described a constitutional republic to me.  Didn't sound much like America today, though.

I think the elephant in the room, which Ransom (and I) rightly points out, is that it doesn't matter what the form of government is, but God sovereignly controls the destiny of nations.

God pretty much controls everyone's destination to some degree. This doesn't mean what you and Ransom think it means.

I tend to agree with RC Sproul on this one.  If there's one little tiny area of existence that is outside the ultimate control of God's sovereignty, then God ain't sovereign.  And if He ain't sovereign over every single thing, then open theism is the logical outcome. 

But I am willing to hear your explanation of how God is limited as to the extent of His sovereignty regarding people and nations, and how it differs from what you think I (and Ransom) have asserted.

"Without your Father" is a reference to knowledge. You can't make it be anything other than this. God is active, proactive and passive in the affairs of men. You must discern the difference to understand exactly what is happening at any given moment.

Please explain on what basis that you believe this passage is referring to only God's knowledge, and not His providential care?  And on a more philosophical line of reasoning, how can God have any ultimate foreknowledge of things that in some sense He does not will to happen?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]"Without your Father" is a reference to knowledge. You can't make it be anything other than this. God is active, proactive and passive in the affairs of men. You must discern the difference to understand exactly what is happening at any given moment.[/quote]

God is active in the affairs of men. To deny this is modified deism at best.

Colossians and Hebrews tells us the reason you aren't currently flying apart into your elemental particles is because Jesus is right now actively holding your body, and all of creation, together.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=christundivided]"Without your Father" is a reference to knowledge. You can't make it be anything other than this. God is active, proactive and passive in the affairs of men. You must discern the difference to understand exactly what is happening at any given moment.

God is active in the affairs of men. To deny this is modified deism at best.

Colossians and Hebrews tells us the reason you aren't currently flying apart into your elemental particles is because Jesus is right now actively holding your body, and all of creation, together.
[/quote]

Some of us feel like our body is falling apart...

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]"Without your Father" is a reference to knowledge. You can't make it be anything other than this. God is active, proactive and passive in the affairs of men. You must discern the difference to understand exactly what is happening at any given moment.

God is active in the affairs of men. To deny this is modified deism at best.

Colossians and Hebrews tells us the reason you aren't currently flying apart into your elemental particles is because Jesus is right now actively holding your body, and all of creation, together.
[/quote]

Go away. I have no interesting in discussing this with you. At every turn you accuse me of being some type of heretic. I am not a deist. My beliefs don't fall nicely into man made designations. Go away.

 

[christundivided]

I tend to agree with RC Sproul on this one.  If there's one little tiny area of existence that is outside the ultimate control of God's sovereignty, then God ain't sovereign.  And if He ain't sovereign over every single thing, then open theism is the logical outcome. 

But I am willing to hear your explanation of how God is limited as to the extent of His sovereignty regarding people and nations, and how it differs from what you think I (and Ransom) have asserted.

First, you're being dishonest with me. You have no reason to question whether I reject the absolute Sovereignty of God.

Second .... whether God is passive, active or proactive in anything..... doesn't in any way change the fact God is in all ways Sovereign. You simply misunderstand "Sovereignty".

I understand Ransom's motive..... Yet, I don't think you've really thought this through.

Please explain on what basis that you believe this passage is referring to only God's knowledge, and not His providential care?  And on a more philosophical line of reasoning, how can God have any ultimate foreknowledge of things that in some sense He does not will to happen?

That is the perfect question. In fact, I don't think I've ever had someone "get it" right off the bat.

God reacts when, where and how its necessary. God's action in times past have effect (cause and effect). Yet, His divine action empowers the actions of that which He acted upon. Each of His divine actions have purpose. Yet, there are many things that take place apart from the divine purposeful action of God. God acts, reacts, and is proactive in limiting those "effects" for His ultimate purpose.

 

[christundivided]

in a free society the power of the sword truly does rest with the people..... but when they elect a president or government official to serve in that capacity they trust that power to them..... but they should still have a voice in how that power is used, and they should make that voice be heard... because if the nation ever goes to war, and the sword is drawn, it will be the citizens serving as the countries soldiers who are wielding it......

in court cases where death sentences are handed down it is once again the citizens more so than the government who are wielding the sword....  as death sentences are handed down by juries... and juries are made up of the nations citizens.....

God can control and even direct the decisions and actions of all those involved... both in government and voters who put it into power... but how much directing of it does He really do?......i don;t think it;s as much as some want to believe but i also don;t believe He;s totally hands off with it either......  God does not relinquish His sovereignty simply because He allows man to direct his own affairs.... i don;t understand the thinking behind the beliefs that if God is not a micromanager or acting as a puppet master then He is not truly sovereign over man..... maybe i;m seeing the arguments wrong but that is how they always seem to come across.....

Exactly. That is what a good Calvinist would want you think. They try to dumb down the arguments to the point that people ignore the inherent complexity in the operation of God's Sovereignty.

 

[ALAYMAN]

First, you're being dishonest with me. You have no reason to question whether I reject the absolute Sovereignty of God.

No bro, I really wasn't trying to indict your beliefs, but was positively stating (whether right or wrongly understood from my perspective) that I don't understand, literally, don't understand how if there is any THING that is outside the ultimate sovereign control of God how it doesn't logically necessitate that there is something more sovereign than God, at least in that realm that the THING exerts its will outside of God's influence and control.

Sproul said it this way...


“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled. Perhaps that one maverick molecule will lay waste all the ground and glorious plans that God has made and promised to us. ... If we reject divine sovereignty then we must embrace atheism.”

I don't cite him, or any other man, as an ultimate authority, but what he is saying makes sense to me, I think.

Second .... whether God is passive, active or proactive in anything..... doesn't in any way change the fact God is in all ways Sovereign. You simply misunderstand "Sovereignty".

Maybe, but I think that to imply that "free will" is absolute, without qualification, leads to illogical conclusions about God's power to make things turn out for the ultimate good.

That is the perfect question. In fact, I don't think I've ever had someone "get it" right off the bat.

God reacts when, where and how its necessary. God's action in times past have effect (cause and effect). Yet, His divine action empowers the actions of that which He acted upon. Each of His divine actions have purpose. Yet, there are many things that take place apart from the divine purposeful action of God. God acts, reacts, and is proactive in limiting those "effects" for His ultimate purpose.

I don't think I understand what you're getting at.  How does God know something will happen, with perfect knowledge, if He didn't in some ultimate sense will it to happen (whether permissively or actively)?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...then open theism is the logical outcome.[/quote]

Like for instance....

[quote author=christundivided]God reacts when, where and how its necessary. God's action in times past have effect (cause and effect). Yet, His divine action empowers the actions of that which He acted upon. Each of His divine actions have purpose. Yet, there are many things that take place apart from the divine purposeful action of God. God acts, reacts, and is proactive in limiting those "effects" for His ultimate purpose. [/quote]

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]Some of us feel like our body is falling apart...[/quote]

I blame stuffed jalapenos. It's impossible to eat only 3 or 4. They are like crack.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]"Without your Father" is a reference to knowledge. You can't make it be anything other than this. God is active, proactive and passive in the affairs of men. You must discern the difference to understand exactly what is happening at any given moment.

God is active in the affairs of men. To deny this is modified deism at best.

Colossians and Hebrews tells us the reason you aren't currently flying apart into your elemental particles is because Jesus is right now actively holding your body, and all of creation, together.

Go away. I have no interesting in discussing this with you. At every turn you accuse me of being some type of heretic. I am not a deist. My beliefs don't fall nicely into man made designations. Go away.[/quote]

You may not be a deist, but you're arguing their position for them here.

 

[ALAYMAN]

God can control and even direct the decisions and actions of all those involved... both in government and voters who put it into power... but how much directing of it does He really do?......i don;t think it;s as much as some want to believe but i also don;t believe He;s totally hands off with it either...... 

I can probably assent to this.  I had somebody I respect explain it to me in terms that you prolly would like, being the amateur mariner that you are.  They said that we are on a ship.  And on that ship we go about our business swabbing the deck and hoisting the sails, and whatever the heck else goes on onboard those things.   But within that ship our bounds are obviously limited to the boat, and we don't control the destination of the boat.  That may be way simple, and a flawed analogy, but it comes close to working for me.

God does not relinquish His sovereignty simply because He allows man to direct some.. or even most or his own affairs.... i don;t understand the thinking behind the beliefs that if God is not a micromanager or acting as a puppet master then He is not truly sovereign over man..... maybe i;m seeing the arguments wrong but that is how they always seem to come across.....

In my early days of the FFF,  fighting predestinarians left and right, I often came back at them with the question "but doesn't that make God the author of evil?", but I think that the two thoughts of man's choice and God's sovereignty are simply things our finite minds can't figure out with absolute precision.  I agree totally with you that we are not puppets, and have choice, but I also believe that God is ultimately sovereign over our choices.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...I often came back at them with the question "but doesn't that make God the author of evil?"...[/quote]

Augustine's answer (which I happen to agree with): Evil is not a thing, but the absence of a thing. Therefore, it is not something that God could have authored.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...I often came back at them with the question "but doesn't that make God the author of evil?"...

Augustine's answer (which I happen to agree with): Evil is not a thing, but the absence of a thing. Therefore, it is not something that God could have authored.
[/quote]

I don't dispute the idea that evil is not a thing, but the absence of a thing (that thing being God I presume), but I need you to draw pictures.   Flesh that out if you would.

And do you have a link to Augustines words about this, or at least a citation of source?

 

[christundivided]

“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled. Perhaps that one maverick molecule will lay waste all the ground and glorious plans that God has made and promised to us. ... If we reject divine sovereignty then we must embrace atheism.”

Do you really not see how silly that statement is????

That molecule moves free within God's predeterminate environment. Just because that molecule is free to "move" doesn't change the fact it can NEVER be beyond God's control.

The statement is so childish..... I'd expect such from a adolescent. Not a seasoned man of faith. (not talking about you.)

Maybe, but I think that to imply that "free will" is absolute, without qualification, leads to illogical conclusions about God's power to make things turn out for the ultimate good.

You don't live your life by this. Not at all. No one does. Let me give a perfect example you can identify with. Let's take alayboy. I am certain you could care less (within reason) how he spends some of his time. At other times, you care exactly what he is doing at the very moment. In fact, you take action to make sure he's doing exactly what he is suppose to be doing.

I don't think I understand what you're getting at.  How does God know something will happen, with perfect knowledge, if He didn't in some ultimate sense will it to happen (whether permissively or actively)?

Another perfect question. A question a Calvinist would never really seriously entertain.

I will say that Traditional Omniscience is another childish invention of the human intellect. However, I do believe that God has perfect knowledge. I believe the proper method to establish such is far different than is traditionally understood. God's foreknowledge has direct correlation with His Unlimited Power. In other words, God knows the future in the fact that He has a perfect understanding of His own desire and will. In this, His divine power operates to bring about exactly what He purposes. At the same time, He perfect knows His creation. In this He knows the future. This does not mean that God's divine action is the direct cause of everything His creation endeavors to perform.

 

[Ransom]

Ransom, maybe you should define your terms. What does it really mean to say God's hand is on them?

"The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; / he turns it wherever he will" (Prov. 21:1).

I think the meaning of this is pretty obvious. Put your hand under a stream of water running from the tap, and you can direct it pretty much wherever you want. You have absolute power over it.

Similarly, God's hand, as it were, guides the heart - the decisions - of the king. ALAYMAN put it right when he said that God controls the destinies of nations. (The king is a metonymy, standing for the nation; as goes the king, so goes the country, as the saying is.)

It obviously isn't making them govern well.

That's beside the point. There are multiple instances of bad kings in the Bible that are said to be under God's control: the Assyrians being wielded like a club against unfaithful Israel, Nebuchadnezzar against the southern kingdom, and so forth.  Sometimes, bad rulers are a judgment from God.