God Decrees All Things That Come to Pass

Ekklesian said:
So, When God said, Let there be light, He merely could have been permitting it to come into being?

Lol. I think you should try again.
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With Ransom's examples, the answer was both. Regarding His creation, God actively decreed his creation meaning that he spoke it into existence.

Did God decree Adam's fall? The answer is YES because he decrees all things that come to pass.

The question is therefore HOW did Adam's fall come to pass? Did God actively bring about Adam's fall or did he simply allow it to come to pass?
 
Baptist Renegade said:
Did God decree Adam's fall? The answer is YES because he decrees all things that come to pass.

The question is therefore HOW did Adam's fall come to pass? Did God actively bring about Adam's fall or did he simply allow it to come to pass?
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If you're saying God decreed the fall to come to pass you can't go on to question did God actively bring it about or just allow it. None of that way of reasoning makes any sense. I believe he allowed and and DID NOT decree it.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
That he decreed it is indisputable. It is heretical to say otherwise.
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Quite interesting. For I think it's heretical to claim that he did. So do massive amounts of others in Christendom.
Baptist Renegade said:
I think it is important however to properly define just what we mean by "God's Decrees."

I believe it is a correct to say that "God Decrees all things that come to pass"
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Sorry friend but you can't have your cake and eat it too! You can't go on to say he decrees things and admit you don't even know what decree means?
Baptist Renegade said:
We can then ask whether God acted directedly or permissively?

The question is therefore whether God actively and deliberately brought about man's fall by his own actions? I say that he did not.
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Sorry but you lead the world into confusion by using the rhetoric that you do. If you're going to say he decreed things it goes without saying he was instrumental in bringing it about. If he wasn't instrumental in bringing it about and just wanted to allow it there would be no reason to decree it.

I think you people are just wanting to show what you think of as humility to God by making it seem God is Great and Strong and must be the controller in some sort.....but then you appeal to maybe God just allowed it to smooth it over. I'd say you all should just make up your mind once and for all. What is it? I keep it straight and simple. God DID NOT decree it but merely allowed it.
Baptist Renegade said:
So, why did God allow it?
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It's absolutely and totally crystal clear. He doesn't force people to be and stay in relationship with him. Period. I mean I just don't get why you would think this would be any mystery.
 
Bob Jones V said:
Oh, come on now. That is just ridiculous. Man does not have free will, you Free-Willy.
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Well he does but in a certain context. Men reject God they then can't decide by an act of their will what will be their consequences as much as they might like too Nope, not going to work that way. God has given men free will though to make their basic choices about life. Or if it's judgement time for a nation....nope they don't by their will get to change that.
 
Rockson said:
If you're saying God decreed the fall to come to pass you can't go on to question did God actively bring it about or just allow it. None of that way of reasoning makes any sense. I believe he allowed and and DID NOT decree it.
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What's worse, the fall or man or the crucifixion of Christ?

God decreed the crucifixion. Why could He not decree the fall of man (which is infinitely less problematic than the crucifixion)
 
Believing the serpent more is akin to betrayal. And is there any forgiveness for Judas? Is it significant that the Abel , and not his parents, is considered the first in the lineage faith?

Murder is a crime of passion. And Paul was a murderer of Christ. Is Christs prayer for the forgiveness of his murderers the only prayer of His that went unanswered?

No such prayer was uttered for His betrayer.
 
FSSL said:
What's worse, the fall or man or the crucifixion of Christ?

God decreed the crucifixion. Why could He not decree the fall of man (which is infinitely less problematic than the crucifixion)
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Using your logic he's guilty of creating sin. Sorry, no two ways about it.
 
AverageJoe said:
I've heard of it..but, explain it for the boatd. 😉
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It's a doctrinal truth stated in the confessions of the earliest Baptists. It means that Go d Decreed all things, even things that seem to be not directly decreed. For example, me "winning" a person to the Lord appears to many that it was my causation. It wasn't. It was God's decreed causation using a secondary cause (my preaching of the gospel).
 
Baptist Confession of Faith
5:2 All things come to pass unchangeably and certainly in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, who is the first cause. Thus, nothing happens to anyone by chance or outside of God’s providence. Yet by the same providence God arranges all things to occur according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or in response to other causes.
 
AverageJoe said:
Using your logic he's guilty of creating sin. Sorry, no two ways about it.
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Using Scripture, God should not be accused... "This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Acts 2:23
 
FSSL said:
Using Scripture, God should not be accused... "This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Acts 2:23
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Being Sovereign if he ordained it all whether performed by wicked men or crazed monkeys he's responsible...or so the average human would believe.
 
Rockson said:
Quite interesting. For I think it's heretical to claim that he did. So do massive amounts of others in Christendom.

Sorry friend but you can't have your cake and eat it too! You can't go on to say he decrees things and admit you don't even know what decree means?

Sorry but you lead the world into confusion by using the rhetoric that you do. If you're going to say he decreed things it goes without saying he was instrumental in bringing it about. If he wasn't instrumental in bringing it about and just wanted to allow it there would be no reason to decree it.

I think you people are just wanting to show what you think of as humility to God by making it seem God is Great and Strong and must be the controller in some sort.....but then you appeal to maybe God just allowed it to smooth it over. I'd say you all should just make up your mind once and for all. What is it? I keep it straight and simple. God DID NOT decree it but merely allowed it.

It's absolutely and totally crystal clear. He doesn't force people to be and stay in relationship with him. Period. I mean I just don't get why you would think this would be any mystery.
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Consider the following two statements:
  1. Nothing happens of which God is not aware
  2. Nothing happens of which God does not allow
Therefore, before God ever declared "Let there be light" and set everything in motion, he knew that Adam would fall along with every bad thing that would result from this.

Was God powerless to stop any of this? If he could've stopped Adam from sinning (and I believe he could've), why didn't he?

Why does a loving God allow so much pain and suffering in the world?

Did Adam's fall catch God by surprise requiring him to come up with a "Plan B" and send his Son to die for the sins of mankind?

Here's RC Sproul's statement on the matter:

 
AverageJoe said:
Being Sovereign if he ordained it all whether performed by wicked men or crazed monkeys he's responsible...or so the average human would believe.
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The average human being accuses God for all kinds of wickeness.

God should never be accused
 
FSSL said:
The average human being accuses God for all kinds of wickeness.

God should never be accused
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To be fair, the "accusing God of wickedness" part is pretty much how the non-Calvinist often sees the parsing of language amongst the harder-right sovereignty explanation types.
 
It's a difficult doctrine. That is why Paul addressed the accusations in Romans 9.19-20 "talk back to God"

Its not a parsing of language. Its attempting to speak rightly about God's absolute sovereignty without accusing Him at the same time.
 
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