God's sovereignty in Moses' life.

[ALAYMAN]

Numbers 14:7 And they spake unto all the company of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to search it, is an exceeding good land.  8 If the Lord delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.  9 Only rebel not ye against the Lord, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the Lord is with us: fear them not.  10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the Lord appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.  11 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?  12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.  13 And Moses said unto the Lord, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them  14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.  15 Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,  16 Because the Lord was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.  17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,  18 The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.  19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.  20 And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

In this exchange we see God's intention to destroy the stiffnecked Israelites who persist in rebellion.  Moses begs God to reconsider, and Moses does so by appealing to God's reputation among the lost, and how it might be damaged as not being longsuffering.  It's almost like Moses is saying to God "now don't forget what you've said about building a great nation from Abraham's seed.  And look at how the lost nations would view you if you didn't keep your promise".  God relents, and says "as you wish". 

Question:  In the light of God's sovereign and omniscient understanding of human interactions, why does it appear that God is persuaded of a change of action from what He originally stated He would do?  On a more nuanced level, why does Moses appeal to God's promises (and His nature, as well as reputation)  in light of what God had just pledged to do?

 

[Twisted]

God didn't destroy Nineveh when He said He would.

I believe there are a few other examples as well.

 

[sword]

Isaiah 38:1-5
[1] In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.
[2] Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the LORD,
[3] And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
[4] Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,
[5] Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

 

[sword]

All through the Book or Jeremiah the message is "If you will change your ways, God will change his mind about the judgement he has planned. "Do right and I will bless you."

Jeremiah 18:8
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jeremiah 26:3
If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Jeremiah 42:10
If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

IF the question is ?Did Moses? arguments persuade or convince God to actually change His mind?, then the answer is ?of course not?. God is omnipotent, omniscient and of course sovereign. This is simply anthropomorphic language (the use of human forms and structures to describe God). When the Bible talks about God?s feet or the right arm of the Lord, we can see that as just a human way of speaking about God. Why get confused when Scripture uses more abstract terms....like repent?

 

[T-Bone]

IF the question is ?Did Moses? arguments persuade or convince God to actually change His mind?, then the answer is ?of course not?. God is omnipotent, omniscient and of course sovereign. This is simply anthropomorphic language (the use of human forms and structures to describe God). When the Bible talks about God?s feet or the right arm of the Lord, we can see that as just a human way of speaking about God. Why get confused when Scripture uses more abstract terms....like repent?

What he said^^^

 

[Ransom]

Question:  In the light of God's sovereign and omniscient understanding of human interactions, why does it appear that God is persuaded of a change of action from what He originally stated He would do?

You used the key word there. It appears that God is persuaded. Of course, he is omnipotent, and he knows exactly what the people are going to do--let alone what he is going to do. His mind isn't changed; the exchange between God and Moses is rhetorical.

On a more nuanced level, why does Moses appeal to God's promises (and His nature, as well as reputation)  in light of what God had just pledged to do?

I see it as an act of faith. Moses is affirming those aspects of God's character, and he has confidence in the outcome because God's goodness is consistent with his character.

 

[cpizzle]

I see it as a blessed example of humanity's ability to affect God's decisions.  Prayer has power and importunity can produce a change in God's intended action.  The conversation was neither rhetorical, andromorphic, or nonconsequential.  God was going to destroy the recently freed Israelites but was persuaded not to by Moses' pleas.  Same for Abraham's appeal for Sodom and Gomorrah or Ninevah's repentance and mercy in Jonah.

God's mind can be changed by the prayers of his people.  What amazing grace!

 

[Ransom]

God was going to destroy the recently freed Israelites but was persuaded not to by Moses' pleas.

What did Moses know that God hadn't considered in his decision-making?

Same for Abraham's appeal for Sodom and Gomorrah or Ninevah's repentance and mercy in Jonah.

God had already sent his angels to Sodom when Abraham discussed the situation with him. He hadn't changed his mind.  Again, did God not know there weren't ten righteous Sodomites? What did Abraham tell him that hadn't already occured to him?

 

[cpizzle]

It wasn't new information that God needed.  He was moved by the prayers of his people!

I don't understand God's omniscience and foreknowledge but it is clear from scripture that humanity can change the mind of The Almighty.  We don't "win debates" with God, but we can petition him.  He oftentimes grants Mercy and Grace based on our pleas.  God "repents" (changes his mind) several times in scripture based on man's actions and prayers.  Prayer is powerful and scripture is full of examples.

There is a passage of scripture that I still find somewhat unexplainable, yet relevant,  considering God's omniscience.  When the Angel stops Abraham from sacraficing Isaac, the Bible says "... Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. (Gen 22:12.)  Again, I can't fully explain it, but I can't ignore it either.

 

[Ransom]

It wasn't new information that God needed.  He was moved by the prayers of his people!

If God was moved by another person to change his intended actions, then was he being just and good when he intended to destroy the Israelites, or when he didn't?

This might be worse, because you could at least argue that if God lacked information, then his first decision (to destroy the Israelites) was just and righteous based on the information he had, and his changed decision (not to destroy them) was just and righteous based on new information.

This, however, says that God will change his mind and relent from performing a good and just action, not because of changed circumstances (as was the case, for example, with Nineveh), but because someone caused him to relent with a pathetic appeal. This is an attack on the divine attributes of aseity (self-sufficiency), impassibility, and immutability. God does not need anything outside of himself (Acts 17:25) and he does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17). (In fact, the verse in Malachi says the reason Israel has not been destroyed is precisely because God does not change.) Hence God is not acted upon by other agents. He is not without emotions, but he is not manipulated by the emotions of others. His actions stem from his own power and his unchangeable, good, nature.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

It wasn't new information that God needed.  He was moved by the prayers of his people!

I don't understand God's omniscience and foreknowledge but it is clear from scripture that humanity can change the mind of The Almighty.  We don't "win debates" with God, but we can petition him.  He oftentimes grants Mercy and Grace based on our pleas.  God "repents" (changes his mind) several times in scripture based on man's actions and prayers.  Prayer is powerful and scripture is full of examples.

There is a passage of scripture that I still find somewhat unexplainable, yet relevant,  considering God's omniscience.  When the Angel stops Abraham from sacraficing Isaac, the Bible says "... Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. (Gen 22:12.)  Again, I can't fully explain it, but I can't ignore it either.

Is it your assertion that God did not know Abraham?s feelings toward Him until this incident?

God never asks a question He doesn?t already know the answer to.
If God does ask a question it?s not for His benefit but for the benefit of the one to whom He directs the question. Same thing here...this wasn?t for God?s benefit or enlightenment but for Abraham?s.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Was this man centered, God needs to know something about us belief taught at Hyles Anderson?

 

[T-Bone]

Prayer does not change the mind of God, as if He had not known all the possibilities and was about to do something incorrect. Prayer is not for God, it's for us. Prayer brings us into line with God...and in it our hearts are revealed as to whether they are right with God. There is nothing I can tell God that He doesn't already know. God doesn't have "AH-HA" moments.  He knows the end from the beginning. Not sure how anyone can believe that a finite person can tell an infinite God anything.  Almost sounds like the evolving and limited gods of Greek mythology, rather than the one true God.

 

[cpizzle]

It wasn't new information that God needed.  He was moved by the prayers of his people!

If God was moved by another person to change his intended actions, then was he being just and good when he intended to destroy the Israelites, or when he didn't?

Not to be curt....but the answer would be both.  God would have been just and good in destroying the Israelites  and he was merciful and good by sparing them.

 

[cpizzle]

It wasn't new information that God needed.  He was moved by the prayers of his people!

I don't understand God's omniscience and foreknowledge but it is clear from scripture that humanity can change the mind of The Almighty.  We don't "win debates" with God, but we can petition him.  He oftentimes grants Mercy and Grace based on our pleas.  God "repents" (changes his mind) several times in scripture based on man's actions and prayers.  Prayer is powerful and scripture is full of examples.

There is a passage of scripture that I still find somewhat unexplainable, yet relevant,  considering God's omniscience.  When the Angel stops Abraham from sacraficing Isaac, the Bible says "... Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. (Gen 22:12.)  Again, I can't fully explain it, but I can't ignore it either.

Your thoughts are based on solid logic and reasoning and they make great sense.  However, they are not based on clear Biblical passages.  They are formed by assumptions about God's nature.  You might be right and I might be wrong, but scripture isn't as plain on the subject as you seem to contend.

Is it your assertion that God did not know Abraham?s feelings toward Him until this incident?

God never asks a question He doesn?t already know the answer to.
If God does ask a question it?s not for His benefit but for the benefit of the one to whom He directs the question. Same thing here...this wasn?t for God?s benefit or enlightenment but for Abraham?s.

 

[Ransom]

Not to be curt....but the answer would be both.  God would have been just and good in destroying the Israelites  and he was merciful and good by sparing them.

To be curt, you're arguing that to murder the Jews was right, and not to murder the Jews was right.

 

[Ransom]

There is a passage of scripture that I still find somewhat unexplainable, yet relevant,  considering God's omniscience.  When the Angel stops Abraham from sacraficing Isaac, the Bible says "... Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. (Gen 22:12.)  Again, I can't fully explain it, but I can't ignore it either.

If God "now" knows something that he didn't know before Abraham made motions to kill Isaac, then it is a denial that God is omniscient because he did not know future things. Worse, it's a denial of divine omniscience because God does not know present things. Was God incapable of knowing Abraham's thoughts at that moment and seeing that he was sincere?

Is there anything else God doesn't know that we should be aware of?

 

[cpizzle]

Prayer does not change the mind of God, as if He had not known all the possibilities and was about to do something incorrect. Prayer is not for God, it's for us. Prayer brings us into line with God...and in it our hearts are revealed as to whether they are right with God. There is nothing I can tell God that He doesn't already know. God doesn't have "AH-HA" moments.  He knows the end from the beginning. Not sure how anyone can believe that a finite person can tell an infinite God anything.  Almost sounds like the evolving and limited gods of Greek mythology, rather than the one true God.

God responds to prayers for our benefit and our sake.  "Ye have not because ye ask not" clearly shows that their are 2 different outcomes based on prayer or no-prayer.  Without Moses's prayer, Israel would have been destroyed in the Wilderness.  God didn't learn anything from Moses, he just saw his piety and CHOSE to honor his request.  Even Christ's teaching on "importunity" shows us that God sometimes "relents" to our prayers when we refuse to quit asking.

You might disagree with me, but I certainly think it is inapropriate to ask if I consider God "ever evolving" or "limitted."

 

[cpizzle]

Was this man centered, God needs to know something about us belief taught at Hyles Anderson?

You are giving HAC too much credit for deep thought and theology

I actually asked this question one time in Bible Doctrine's class and was given the same answers I am getting on the forum.  I found them unconvicing then as well as now