God's sovereignty in Moses' life.

[cpizzle]

There is a passage of scripture that I still find somewhat unexplainable, yet relevant,  considering God's omniscience.  When the Angel stops Abraham from sacraficing Isaac, the Bible says "... Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. (Gen 22:12.)  Again, I can't fully explain it, but I can't ignore it either.

If God "now" knows something that he didn't know before Abraham made motions to kill Isaac, then it is a denial that God is omniscient because he did not know future things. Worse, it's a denial of divine omniscience because God does not know present things. Was God incapable of knowing Abraham's thoughts at that moment and seeing that he was sincere?

Is there anything else God doesn't know that we should be aware of?

No...not that i can think of

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Was this man centered, God needs to know something about us belief taught at Hyles Anderson?

You are giving HAC too much credit for deep thought and theology

I actually asked this question one time in Bible Doctrine's class and was given the same answers I am getting on the forum.  I found them unconvicing then as well as now

I don?t think you give them enough ?credit?.
A cursory search led me to a few of Dr Hyles sermons on this subject that were very ?man centered...you can change Gods mind? in their content.

If you follow basic/simple rules of hermeneutics there is no Biblical quandary here as you suggested earlier.

 

[cpizzle]

Was this man centered, God needs to know something about us belief taught at Hyles Anderson?

You are giving HAC too much credit for deep thought and theology

I actually asked this question one time in Bible Doctrine's class and was given the same answers I am getting on the forum.  I found them unconvicing then as well as now

I don?t think you give them enough ?credit?.
A cursory search led me to a few of Dr Hyles sermons on this subject that were very ?man centered...you can change Gods mind? in their content.

If you follow basic/simple rules of hermeneutics there is no Biblical quandary here as you suggested earlier.

My point was that HAC "straddled the fence" on these types of issues.  They were oftentimes inconsistent because they didn't consider the ramifications of their teachings on other areas of scripture.  In essence, they would contradict themselves consistently.  They teach as you do (God already knows what we are going to do and has already mapped out the entirety of existence down to its smallest detail) and like I believe (Man can change the mind of God.)  They were right more often than they were wrong and I know they are all Bible Believers, but the shallowness of their theology was evident as well.  That being said, I'm still glad to be a Hacker!

 

[T-Bone]

Prayer does not change the mind of God, as if He had not known all the possibilities and was about to do something incorrect. Prayer is not for God, it's for us. Prayer brings us into line with God...and in it our hearts are revealed as to whether they are right with God. There is nothing I can tell God that He doesn't already know. God doesn't have "AH-HA" moments.  He knows the end from the beginning. Not sure how anyone can believe that a finite person can tell an infinite God anything.  Almost sounds like the evolving and limited gods of Greek mythology, rather than the one true God.

God responds to prayers for our benefit and our sake.  "Ye have not because ye ask not" clearly shows that their are 2 different outcomes based on prayer or no-prayer.  Without Moses's prayer, Israel would have been destroyed in the Wilderness.  God didn't learn anything from Moses, he just saw his piety and CHOSE to honor his request.  Even Christ's teaching on "importunity" shows us that God sometimes "relents" to our prayers when we refuse to quit asking.

You might disagree with me, but I certainly think it is inapropriate to ask if I consider God "ever evolving" or "limitted."

I am asking you to consider that your stated view of God in these situations lead to the idea of an evolving and limited God...they also lead to the heresy of "open theism".  And I am not suggesting that you believe in any of these things, so please do not be offended in this discussion.

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

Was this man centered, God needs to know something about us belief taught at Hyles Anderson?

You are giving HAC too much credit for deep thought and theology

I actually asked this question one time in Bible Doctrine's class and was given the same answers I am getting on the forum.  I found them unconvicing then as well as now

I don?t think you give them enough ?credit?.
A cursory search led me to a few of Dr Hyles sermons on this subject that were very ?man centered...you can change Gods mind? in their content.

If you follow basic/simple rules of hermeneutics there is no Biblical quandary here as you suggested earlier.

My point was that HAC "straddled the fence" on these types of issues.  They were oftentimes inconsistent because they didn't consider the ramifications of their teachings on other areas of scripture.  In essence, they would contradict themselves consistently.  They teach as you do (God already knows what we are going to do and has already mapped out the entirety of existence down to its smallest detail) and like I believe (Man can change the mind of God.)  They were right more often than they were wrong and I know they are all Bible Believers, but the shallowness of their theology was evident as well. That being said, I'm still glad to be a Hacker!

Well, GLORY! That's enough to make a BJer shout. All true HACkers are still glad to be HACkers! Can I get a witness!!!!!!!!

 

[Walt]

God was going to destroy the recently freed Israelites but was persuaded not to by Moses' pleas.

What did Moses know that God hadn't considered in his decision-making?

That Moses would intercede in prayer for the Israelites.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I see it as an act of faith. Moses is affirming those aspects of God's character, and he has confidence in the outcome because God's goodness is consistent with his character.

Wow, that was the opposite way I perceived it from Moses.  I am willing to be persuaded that your perspective may be more accurately depicting the intentions of the text.  I will look into that. Anything that you would point to in the text that led you to believe that?


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[ALAYMAN]

IF the question is ?Did Moses? arguments persuade or convince God to actually change His mind?, then the answer is ?of course not?. God is omnipotent, omniscient and of course sovereign. This is simply anthropomorphic language (the use of human forms and structures to describe God). When the Bible talks about God?s feet or the right arm of the Lord, we can see that as just a human way of speaking about God. Why get confused when Scripture uses more abstract terms....like repent?

I am not sure that I understand how it is anthropomorphic. Could you help me to see what you mean?

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[ALAYMAN]

I see it as a blessed example of humanity's ability to affect God's decisions.  Prayer has power and importunity can produce a change in God's intended action. 

I agree with this, but I don't agree that God changed His mind. He knew what the outcome would be before this exchange.

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[Tarheel Baptist]

IF the question is ?Did Moses? arguments persuade or convince God to actually change His mind?, then the answer is ?of course not?. God is omnipotent, omniscient and of course sovereign. This is simply anthropomorphic language (the use of human forms and structures to describe God). When the Bible talks about God?s feet or the right arm of the Lord, we can see that as just a human way of speaking about God. Why get confused when Scripture uses more abstract terms....like repent?

I am not sure that I understand how it is anthropomorphic. Could you help me to see what you mean?

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Help me see where you have a lack of understanding.
Do you believe God changes His mind?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Do you believe God changes His mind?

Not in the sense that He learned something and then made a different decision than He was previously going to do.

But based on the simple premise of your question I think I understand why you ascribe anthropomorphic language to the text, and I don't necessarily disagree.  The hair I may be attempting to split could be upon inconsequential minutia (being obtuse ).  I had always associated anthropomorphic language with more poetic passages about God having a body, or some human physical attribute, not one as abstract as a "change of mind", but in a broad sense I could see how your  definition of anthropomorphism is appropriate.