Going to church and apprehension surrounding it.....

AverageJoe said:
We were placed on the "enemies" list when we approached our pastor about funds going to the NAMB when that entity was using funds outside of their authority and their constitution. The president of that particular entity, Kevin Ezell, is in a battle against a former missions director, and the case went before the Supreme Court of the United States this past year. Because there were lies found on the part of the NAMB, and Kevin Ezell, the case was thrown back down to the lower court to be heard and tried again. Being in the SBC, there are many issues that have come to light, and it's just not something that is going to resolve itself. My wife and I have brought the issues to the pastor, then to a couple of the deacons, but we've been stopped from bringing it before the church. We've not spoken about it to other members, nor will we, though our pastor has tried to prove we have spoken about it to other members. It's becoming more and more clear that we probably need to be in another, more responsible church, probably OUTSIDE of the imploding SBC.
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It's tough and hard to be in a church when you get on the pastor's enemy list (or even "not trusted" list)
 
illinoisguy said:
I am not competent to tell Average Joe or anyone else what to do. However, my experience over the years has been, once I find myself on the preacher's "enemies list," it's time to move on. Once on the enemies list, the only way to get off is to make a total, complete groveling submission to the absolute authority of the Mannagod, and even then, you will always be watched and under suspicion, and no amount of submission and obedience to the pastor will ever be good enough. I agree that it's a good idea to move on to a non-SBC church that does not financially support entities of the imploding SBC. But I have to admit that most churches include some very questionable causes in their "missions" budgets. Look at all the IFB churches that were sending money to Hephzibah House, Christian Law Association, etc.
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I have no idea what NAMB is.
 
Walt said:
I have no idea what NAMB is.
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The North American Missions Board....The SBC churches send support there every week/month. At the present, it's under the control of a thief and liar, Kevin Ezell, who is fighting Rev. Will McRaney over McRaney's firing about a decade ago. Ezell has lied and tried to make the NAMB a part of a hierarchy that doesn't exist in the SBC, and it was a case that went before the SCOTUS a few months back. The SCOTUS sent the case back down to the Circuit court level to be retried there. That means that Ezell will finally have to be deposed, which he's been able to avoid doing thus far.
 
The North American Missions Board and Cooperative Program are sacred cows for many (not all) SBC churches and pastors. In most cases, SBC pastors who support these causes are not going to tolerate any criticism or interference from lay people who challenge the appropriateness of shipping off their tithe money to these entities. Those like Average Joe, who can see that the "emperor has no clothes" and who dare to question these SBC entities are to be commended. In most cases, the only remedy for the problem is to move on to another church.

Admittedly, other kinds of churches, including IFB, have their sacred cows too, and any member who dares to criticize them can expect to get on the enemies list. Among IFBs, the sacred cow could be an abusive private prison like Hephzibah House, or some bozo missionary who is a crony of the preacher. In one IFB church, I got into serious trouble with regard to a preacher from Arizona who came to our church to raise money for a new Spanish translation of the Bible called the McVey Bible that was to be translated directly from the 1611 KJV. (He trashed the 1960 Reina-Valera Bible, which is a perfectly good Textus Receptus-based Spanish version, and said there would be no true Bible in Spanish until the McVey Bible came out). When the McVey John-Romans portion was published, I checked it out and found that in at least a few places, the text was totally different from the KJV, but my pastor couldn't read Spanish. I pointed out to him that the new translation was deceptive and was not what had been promised to the Ruckmanite supporters who were ponying up big bucks for it. My pastor was enraged with me, saying I had no right to challenge a missionary project he had endorsed, and he defended the Arizona preacher and his project on the basis of "He's my friend!" so that settled it, in his mind. The translator of that Bible, Kent Terrill Rabe, later spent some time in a Montana prison for committing incest with some teenage female relatives, and is now a registered sex offender in Butte, Montana - this is public information, available on the Internet. But who was the bad guy for questioning his deceptive Spanish Bible fund-raising gimmick? Me. (Of course, I had to leave that church in a hurry, over that and many other issues. Like I said in a previous post, once you land on the pastor's enemies list, in most cases, the best thing to do is leave that church).
 
illinoisguy said:
The North American Missions Board and Cooperative Program are sacred cows for many (not all) SBC churches and pastors. In most cases, SBC pastors who support these causes are not going to tolerate any criticism or interference from lay people who challenge the appropriateness of shipping off their tithe money to these entities. Those like Average Joe, who can see that the "emperor has no clothes" and who dare to question these SBC entities are to be commended. In most cases, the only remedy for the problem is to move on to another church.

Admittedly, other kinds of churches, including IFB, have their sacred cows too, and any member who dares to criticize them can expect to get on the enemies list. Among IFBs, the sacred cow could be an abusive private prison like Hephzibah House, or some bozo missionary who is a crony of the preacher. In one IFB church, I got into serious trouble with regard to a preacher from Arizona who came to our church to raise money for a new Spanish translation of the Bible called the McVey Bible that was to be translated directly from the 1611 KJV. (He trashed the 1960 Reina-Valera Bible, which is a perfectly good Textus Receptus-based Spanish version, and said there would be no true Bible in Spanish until the McVey Bible came out). When the McVey John-Romans portion was published, I checked it out and found that in at least a few places, the text was totally different from the KJV, but my pastor couldn't read Spanish. I pointed out to him that the new translation was deceptive and was not what had been promised to the Ruckmanite supporters who were ponying up big bucks for it. My pastor was enraged with me, saying I had no right to challenge a missionary project he had endorsed, and he defended the Arizona preacher and his project on the basis of "He's my friend!" so that settled it, in his mind. The translator of that Bible, Kent Terrill Rabe, later spent some time in a Montana prison for committing incest with some teenage female relatives, and is now a registered sex offender in Butte, Montana - this is public information, available on the Internet. But who was the bad guy for questioning his deceptive Spanish Bible fund-raising gimmick? Me. (Of course, I had to leave that church in a hurry, over that and many other issues. Like I said in a previous post, once you land on the pastor's enemies list, in most cases, the best thing to do is leave that church).
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The wife and I are presently looking at/visiting other churches. Since we are considering moving back home to another state if my wife has to go disabled, we won't be joining another one until we make either a decision to stay, or we are totally chased out of the church. Being that we are among the few tithing members, we don't foresee that happening. I truly believe that this is the only reason we are "tolerated" at this point. It's sad that when a person points out true problems within a church that need to be addressed the pastor or the deacons take it as a personal attack. I've about had enough of organized religion to last me the rest of my life. It doesn't mean I won't be going to church, but it does mean that I'm weary and leary of churches in general now.
 
Bob Jones V said:
Yes, very much so. No apprehension on my part, just discernment. Paul said in Phil 1:9 that he prayed that our love would increase in knowledge and discernment. Our dearest friend, leaders in our previous church, strong Christians and godly mentors, left that church after engaging (along with us and 3 other families) the head pastor and other elders, about their engagement in the WOKE movement, promoting George Floyd sentiment, etc. We ended up leaving with them right as the pandemic hit. I met with the preaching pastor of the new church, as did my friends. We felt it was a good fit. But then our friends both got sick, the wife more so. She was home bound for 5 months, and no one visited her or them, even though they kept tithing and watching online. In our case, I submitted a request for a meeting for membership. It took 5 months to get the meeting. Then after I submitted my written testimony and agreement with the statement of faith, 2 months for a reply. No communication, nothing. And we attended weekly, giving regularly and have been involved in several ministries.
My friend has an opinion that stunned me, that they don't really care, don't really have time for people. But they have time for the church to finance them taking sabbaticals, all the staff traveling 8 states over to a conference, and time to write books and take long vacations.
So my friend meets with the pastor, tells him his concerns, and nothing changes, albeit promises of doing better. It's hard to leave.
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Both my wife and I love our church and the people in it. But, we have noticed several things: A man who was in a position (somewhat) of leadership in the men's group...We inquired about whether he was engaged to, married to, or was just living with the woman who came to church with him every week. There was no answer given, though there was a definite indication of possible impropriety. This past week we saw where the man and his girlfriend were in Mexico, he was on his knee with a ring in a box, and she was standing beside him on a beach. They had just gotten engaged. Others had asked the question my wife and I had, and because there was no answer, and because the pastor sidestepped the question, as did the man involved, they left and started another church.
There have been so many other things that have come in, especially since the "pandemic" began. Our church has definitely taken a turn towards the leftist agenda. We are becoming more and more like the world than like Jesus Christ. It's very discouraging. We've done our best to try and stem the tide of the leftist agenda. To some degree, because I still want to be in church with those we've come to love, because of the younger people and their desire to be like the world, my wife doesn't want to be there. I need to avoid most conflict to keep health challenges in control...and that's not always possible with the frustration caused by church. We've continued to tithe, to give offerings, to help kids go to VBS, camp, and to help the Gideons give Bibles to prisoners and others. Yet, we see our tithes and offerings going to support corrupt organizations like the ERLC, NAMB, IMB, and Lifeway. We also see the turn in some of the seminaries towards the woke agenda. It's enough to make us want to go non-denominational or back to the IFB churches. We have a friend who is a pastor at an SBC church in our area who is more conservative, and we've considered going to visit the church he pastors. Yet, we still would have the concerns of the church giving to the cooperative. Until there is change in the way the cooperative gives money to these organizations, and changes in leadership of most of the organizations, we feel we'd just be moving from one church to another with no real change.
 
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