Greek manuscript used by Erasmus for Revelation

logos1560

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Concerning manuscript 1’ [min. 2814], Robert Waltz wrote: “Noteworthy primarily as the single Greek manuscript used by Erasmus to prepare the Apocalypse of his 1516 New Testament” (Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism, p. 1037).

Isbon Beckwith wrote: “Cursive no. 1, of the 12th or 13th century containing the Apocalypse, with the commentary of Andreas, is of particular interest, since it was the only Greek Ms. which Erasmus had for the Apocalypse in his first edition of the Greek Testament (1516)“ (Apocalypse of John, p. 412).

John David Michaelis as translated by Herbert Marsh noted: “Erasmus relates in his defence adversus Stunicam, that he used only one single manuscript of the Revelation for his edition of the New Testament” (Introduction to the NT, Vol. II, p. 312).

The Greek manuscript that Erasmus used for the book of Revelation was missing its last page and did not have the last six verses of the book.  KJV defender Thomas Holland wrote:  “The manuscript Codex 1r used by Desiderius Erasmus in the production of his Greek New Testament is missing the last six verses of Revelation chapter twenty-two” (Crowned With Glory, p. 168). 

At times in this worn manuscript of the book of Revelation used by Erasmus and his copyist, it has been said that it was difficult to distinguish the commentary from the text.  Henry Alford observed:  “The text in the MS. is mixed up with the commentary of Andreas” (Greek Testament, Vol. 4, p. 263, footnote 8).  In this manuscript, Thomas J. Conant noted:  “The text and commentary alternate, without any break in the line” (Baptist Quarterly, April, 1870, p. 135).  James R. White suggested that Erasmus “had an unknown copyist make a fresh copy and returned the original to Reuchlin” (King James Only, second edition, p. 91).  Although some errors made by that copyist in his copying may have been corrected in later printed editions, W. Edward Glenny maintained that “the copyist made several errors that are still found in the TR text published today” (Beacham, One Bible Only, p. 82).  In an edition of the KJV with commentary as edited by F. C. Cook and printed in 1881, William Lee in his introduction to the book of Revelation asserted “the sacred text is here mixed up with the commentary of Andreas,” and he noted:  “Owing to this cause, Erasmus omitted, from his first three editions, chapter 21:26” (Vol. IV, p. 462).

 
I knew it! This just goes to show that, er ... um something or other. And definitively to boot.
 
Did the Greek manuscript that Erasmus used for the text of the book of Revelation in his first printed Greek NT edition have few and minor or insignificant differences or did Erasmus make significant, major changes to the Greek text of that manuscript?

In an article entitled the "Greek Text of the Apocalypse" in the April, 1870, issue of The Baptist Quarterly, Baptist Thomas J. Conant presented some facts concerning the Greek manuscript that Erasmus used for his Greek text for the book of Revelation.

Thomas J. Conant maintained that at Revelation 1:11 the "words, 'which are in Asia,' are not found in the MS" that Erasmus used so Erasmus added them from the Latin Vulgate (p. 137).

At Revelation 2:3, Thomas Conant noted that "the clause 'and hast not fainted' is not in the MS" (p. 137).

Concerning Revelation 5:10, Thomas Conant wrote:  "Erasmus, following the corrupted text of the Vulgate, arbitrarily changed that of his MS so as to read 'us,' in place of 'them' in the first clause, and 'we,' in place of 'they,' in the second" (p. 138).

Concerning Revelation 5:14, Thomas Conant observed:  "'Him that liveth forever and ever' was added to the text by Erasmus from the Latin Vulgate" (p. 138).

Concerning Revelation 11:17, Thomas Conant asserted:  "the MS reads 'who art and who wast,' Erasmus added from the VUlgate 'and who art to come' (p. 139).

Concerning Revelation 12:17, Thomas Conant stated:  "the MS reads 'the testimony of Jesus,' Erasmus added to the text of his MS the word 'Christ' from later copies of the Vulgate" (p. 139).

Concerning Revelation 14:5, Thomas Conant asserted:  "The words, 'before the throne of God,' were added by Erasmus from the Latin Vulgate" (p. 139).

Baptist Thomas J. Conant maintained that the words “of them which are saved” (Rev. 21:24) “rests solely on a mistake by the transcriber, who confounded the commentary of Andreas with the words of the sacred writer” (Baptist Quarterly, Vol. IV, April, 1870, p. 136). Conant suggested that “the transcriber accidentally misplaced the signs for the commencement of the text and of the commentary (as other copies of the commentary show), and thus included in the text the words, ‘of them that are saved,‘ which belong to the commentary on the preceding verse” (pp. 135-136).

Should KJV-only advocates reject their own inconsistent, unsound methods or unjust measures which do in effect accept some Greek manuscripts with significant, major textual variations [such as this one that Erasmus used for the book of Revelation] for inconsistent, unsound reasons?
 
Rick, on which verses do you believe the Geneva Bible has a false text?
 
The topic of this thread concerns the Greek manuscript used by Erasmus for his printed edition of the Greek text for the book of Revelation. 

Do KJV-only advocates seek to change the subject in order to avoid facing the facts concerning this Greek manuscript?
 
We are not reading the Erasmus 1st edition.  Not even the Erasmus 5th edition.    After that came Stephanus and Beza editions.

The bottom line issue is the Reformation Bible text of Revelation, which is generally the same in the Geneva and the AV.  Those are our principle English Bible editions.  They were not translated from the Erasmus first edition.

Which verses in the Geneva Revelation do you believe are corrupt? 

Thanks.

===================

> Should KJV-only advocates reject their own inconsistent, unsound methods or unjust measures which do in effect accept some Greek manuscripts with significant, major textual variations [such as this one that Erasmus used for the book of Revelation] for inconsistent, unsound reasons?

Why would anyone bother with a convoluted, conditional doubly loaded question?  I have rarely seen one quite as dumb as this one, and on an irrelevant issue no less, since everybody knows Erasmus first edition had significant flaws.

Steven
 
Steven Avery said:
We are not reading the Erasmus 1st edition.  Not even the Erasmus 5th edition.    After that came Stephanus and Beza editions.

The bottom line issue is the Reformation Bible text of Revelation, which is generally the same in the Geneva and the AV.  Those are our principle English Bible editions.  They were not translated from the Erasmus first edition.

Which verses in the Geneva Revelation do you believe are corrupt? 

Thanks.

Steve do you believe that Luther used that "Reformation Bible" text of Revelation for his new Bible?

It would seem that Luther is the preeminent "Mr. Reformation".
 
Steven Avery said:
We are not reading the Erasmus 1st edition.  Not even the Erasmus 5th edition.    After that came Stephanus and Beza editions.

The bottom line issue is the Reformation Bible text of Revelation, which is generally the same in the Geneva and the AV.  Those are our principle English Bible editions.  They were not translated from the Erasmus first edition.

Which verses in the Geneva Revelation do you believe are corrupt? 

Thanks.

===================

> Should KJV-only advocates reject their own inconsistent, unsound methods or unjust measures which do in effect accept some Greek manuscripts with significant, major textual variations [such as this one that Erasmus used for the book of Revelation] for inconsistent, unsound reasons?

Why would anyone bother with a convoluted, conditional doubly loaded question?  I have rarely seen one quite as dumb as this one, and on an irrelevant issue no less, since everybody knows Erasmus first edition had significant flaws.

Steven
It's the only pitch in his arsenal.
 
Steven Avery said:
We are not reading the Erasmus 1st edition.  Not even the Erasmus 5th edition.    After that came Stephanus and Beza editions.

everybody knows Erasmus first edition had significant flaws.

Do you yourself read and understand any edition of the Greek New Testament? 
Do you merely assume that your own unsupported speculation or claim is correct?  You have not demonstrated that everybody knows what the significant flaws with Erasmus' first edition of the Greek text were.  If your claim is correct, which KJV-only book or which KJV-only source actually points out every one of the flaws in Erasmus' first edition of the Greek text?

You also have not demonstrated that even Erasmus himself or that Stephanus and Beza knew every one of the flaws that were present in Erasmus' Greek text of the book of Revelation based on one imperfect Greek manuscript, which was not purely or completely Byzantine in its text.  Where have you actually demonstrated that Stephanus and Beza knew and corrected all the flaws in Erasmus' Greek text of the book of Revelation?

 
Rick, you have not demonstrated that any AV defender lifted up the Erasmus 1st edition as perfect, or flawless. 

If you want to quote an AV defender that makes that claim, go right ahead.  You are the one who is taking the strange position that the Erasmus 1st edition is the key edition, without a scintilla of evidence.

Steven Avery
 
prophet said:
Steven Avery said:
We are not reading the Erasmus 1st edition.  Not even the Erasmus 5th edition.    After that came Stephanus and Beza editions.

The bottom line issue is the Reformation Bible text of Revelation, which is generally the same in the Geneva and the AV.  Those are our principle English Bible editions.  They were not translated from the Erasmus first edition.

Which verses in the Geneva Revelation do you believe are corrupt? 

Thanks.

===================

> Should KJV-only advocates reject their own inconsistent, unsound methods or unjust measures which do in effect accept some Greek manuscripts with significant, major textual variations [such as this one that Erasmus used for the book of Revelation] for inconsistent, unsound reasons?

Why would anyone bother with a convoluted, conditional doubly loaded question?  I have rarely seen one quite as dumb as this one, and on an irrelevant issue no less, since everybody knows Erasmus first edition had significant flaws.

Steven
It's the only pitch in his arsenal.

Its a valid question. What collection of texts are being referenced. If you want to explain the progression of the TR in respect to the portions found in "Revelations"..... by all means... play all your cards.

Avery won't. Its beyond him. He doesn't care to get into the details. He just likes poking around and never seriously engaging in textual criticism.

Maybe you don't realize it..... BUT. The TR is made up of choices made between varying texts. You KJVOist or TROnlyist refuse to be honest in this matter.

You for example, would deny any idea of inspiration coming from the KJV translators but you still believe that perfection/inspiration exists in the choices made between the variant texts that form the TR.

You really can't win with you "people". You can't be honest and admit you're own methodology is hypocritical.
 
praise_yeshua said:
prophet said:
Steven Avery said:
We are not reading the Erasmus 1st edition.  Not even the Erasmus 5th edition.    After that came Stephanus and Beza editions.

The bottom line issue is the Reformation Bible text of Revelation, which is generally the same in the Geneva and the AV.  Those are our principle English Bible editions.  They were not translated from the Erasmus first edition.

Which verses in the Geneva Revelation do you believe are corrupt? 

Thanks.

===================

> Should KJV-only advocates reject their own inconsistent, unsound methods or unjust measures which do in effect accept some Greek manuscripts with significant, major textual variations [such as this one that Erasmus used for the book of Revelation] for inconsistent, unsound reasons?

Why would anyone bother with a convoluted, conditional doubly loaded question?  I have rarely seen one quite as dumb as this one, and on an irrelevant issue no less, since everybody knows Erasmus first edition had significant flaws.

Steven
It's the only pitch in his arsenal.

Its a valid question. What collection of texts are being referenced. If you want to explain the progression of the TR in respect to the portions found in "Revelations"..... by all means... play all your cards.

Avery won't. Its beyond him. He doesn't care to get into the details. He just likes poking around and never seriously engaging in textual criticism.

Maybe you don't realize it..... BUT. The TR is made up of choices made between varying texts. You KJVOist or TROnlyist refuse to be honest in this matter.

You for example, would deny any idea of inspiration coming from the KJV translators but you still believe that perfection/inspiration exists in the choices made between the variant texts that form the TR.

You really can't win with you "people". You can't be honest and admit you're own methodology is hypocritical.

The KJVO methodology is fatally flawed as well as intrinsically corrupt.



 
Where can one find a clear electronic copy of Aland minuscule 2814 so that we can read it for ourselves. I think we could cut through the KJVO fog if we could read it for ourselves.
 
logos1560 said:
Quote from: Steven Avery on May 25, 2015, 10:48:52 AM

We are not reading the Erasmus 1st edition.  Not even the Erasmus 5th edition.    After that came Stephanus and Beza editions.

everybody knows Erasmus first edition had significant flaws. 


Do you yourself read and understand any edition of the Greek New Testament? 
Do you merely assume that your own unsupported speculation or claim is correct?  You have not demonstrated that everybody knows what the significant flaws with Erasmus' first edition of the Greek text were.  If your claim is correct, which KJV-only book or which KJV-only source actually points out every one of the flaws in Erasmus' first edition of the Greek text?

You also have not demonstrated that even Erasmus himself or that Stephanus and Beza knew every one of the flaws that were present in Erasmus' Greek text of the book of Revelation based on one imperfect Greek manuscript, which was not purely or completely Byzantine in its text.  Where have you actually demonstrated that Stephanus and Beza knew and corrected all the flaws in Erasmus' Greek text of the book of Revelation? 

Steven Avery said:
Rick, you have not demonstrated that any AV defender lifted up the Erasmus 1st edition as perfect, or flawless. 

If you want to quote an AV defender that makes that claim, go right ahead. 

Since I have not claimed what you asserted, there would be no need for me to demonstrate it.

On the hand, you skipped over and avoided backing up what you yourself actually suggested or claimed. 
Are you trying to change the subject away from the fact that you failed to demonstrate what you  directly claimed?


Steven Avery said:
You are the one who is taking the strange position that the Erasmus 1st edition is the key edition, without a scintilla of evidence.

The first edition of Erasmus would be the key edition in those places where later Textus Receptus editions merely follow it and keep its renderings without regard to the actual Greek manuscript evidence or without regard to the accepted historic Greek text or "historically accepted Greek text" to which you yourself have referred and without any evidence of the use of any consistent, sound, just textual measures. 
 
logos1560 said:
logos1560 said:
Quote from: Steven Avery on May 25, 2015, 10:48:52 AM

We are not reading the Erasmus 1st edition.  Not even the Erasmus 5th edition.    After that came Stephanus and Beza editions.

everybody knows Erasmus first edition had significant flaws. 


Do you yourself read and understand any edition of the Greek New Testament? 
Do you merely assume that your own unsupported speculation or claim is correct?  You have not demonstrated that everybody knows what the significant flaws with Erasmus' first edition of the Greek text were.  If your claim is correct, which KJV-only book or which KJV-only source actually points out every one of the flaws in Erasmus' first edition of the Greek text?

You also have not demonstrated that even Erasmus himself or that Stephanus and Beza knew every one of the flaws that were present in Erasmus' Greek text of the book of Revelation based on one imperfect Greek manuscript, which was not purely or completely Byzantine in its text.  Where have you actually demonstrated that Stephanus and Beza knew and corrected all the flaws in Erasmus' Greek text of the book of Revelation? 

Steven Avery said:
Rick, you have not demonstrated that any AV defender lifted up the Erasmus 1st edition as perfect, or flawless. 

If you want to quote an AV defender that makes that claim, go right ahead. 

Since I have not claimed what you asserted, there would be no need for me to demonstrate it.

On the hand, you skipped over and avoided backing up what you yourself actually suggested or claimed. 
Are you trying to change the subject away from the fact that you failed to demonstrate what you  directly claimed?


Steven Avery said:
You are the one who is taking the strange position that the Erasmus 1st edition is the key edition, without a scintilla of evidence.

The first edition of Erasmus would be the key edition in those places where later Textus Receptus editions merely follow it and keep its renderings without regard to the actual Greek manuscript evidence or without regard to the accepted historic Greek text or "historically accepted Greek text" to which you yourself have referred and without any evidence of the use of any consistent, sound, just textual measures.


Here is a nice electronic copy of Erasmus' Novum Instrumentum, his first try at compiling a Greek text with his own Latin translation on the side to make it more useable for his fellow religious professionals that didn't easily read the Greek. Latin was the main language of almost all religious professionals in Erasmus' time.

Now I have opened it up to the last page of Revelation so Steven can have a jump start at reading it. It really helps if you know Latin too.

This should help all of us find the errors in this edition that Erasmus himself admitted was full of errors. Erasmus had to beat the Spanish to publication, and he did.

The Complutensian Polyglot Bible while printed in 1514 was not published until after 1516 making Erasmus text the first machine printed published Greek text.

Link to Erasmus 1516, hat tip, the University of Basel.

http://www.e-rara.ch/bau_1/content/pageview/896140

Ok so here is the last 6 verses of Revelation from the Vulgate.

Rev 22:16  ego Iesus misi angelum meum testificari vobis haec in ecclesiis ego sum radix et genus David stella splendida et matutina
Rev 22:17  et Spiritus et sponsa dicunt veni et qui audit dicat veni et qui sitit veniat qui vult accipiat aquam vitae gratis
Rev 22:18  contestor ego omni audienti verba prophetiae libri huius si quis adposuerit ad haec adponet Deus super illum plagas scriptas in libro isto
Rev 22:19  et si quis deminuerit de verbis libri prophetiae huius auferet Deus partem eius de ligno vitae et de civitate sancta et de his quae scripta sunt in libro isto
Rev 22:20  dicit qui testimonium perhibet istorum etiam venio cito amen veni Domine Iesu
Rev 22:21  gratia Domini nostri Iesu Christi cum omnibus

Steven this should help you work on the missing 6 verses in minuscule 2814 and the back translation from the Vulgate to Greek.
 
Rick never indicated where he thought the Geneva and the AV are in error.  Are there any significant claims in the thread?
 
Still searching for 2814, not yet but here is 2813

http://www.csntm.org/Manuscript/View/GA_2813

Here is an apparatus using Stephanus 1550, this should help with finding readings that are still following Erasmus 1516.

http://www.csntm.org/printedbook/viewbook/JohnMillNovumTestamentum1707


Mill spent thirty years on this tome, seeing it through to publication just two weeks before his death. Using the third edition (1550) of Stephanus’s Greek New Testament (in the tradition of Erasmus, which text, through many editions and minor changes, would become known as the Textus Receptus) as his base text, he produced an apparatus that gave the readings of 100 Greek manuscripts as well as those of several church fathers and versions. This apparatus revealed 30,000 variants among the witnesses, causing Roman Catholic scholars to decry the Textus Receptus as a ‘paper pope’ which was contradicted by the MSS of the New Testament. Some Protestants, too, attacked Mill’s work because they saw it as a threat to the Reformation principle of sola scriptura. It was Mill’s apparatus that Swabian scholar, Johann Albrecht Bengel, examined patiently with an eye toward theology. He concluded that no Protestant doctrine was jeopardized by any of the variants. The rare and pristine copy of Mill’s work that CSNTM photographed is housed at Clare College, Cambridge.

 
Bible Works has a great searchable New Testament Apparatus that would help in checking what readings in current TR texts are still there that originated as errors in Erasmus 1516.

http://www.bibleworks.com/

Dr. Warren talks about this Apparatus that is part of Bible Works 10.

[youtube]id9a3c1uVJc[/youtube]


Logos 6 has the Apparatus available also.
 
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