HAC/FBCH vs A Cult

[brainisengaged]

Prophet wrote::
But the most CULTISH property to FBCH, was the witchcraft of works based sanctification.

That is pretty much deeply embedded. Some of you talk of 'deprogramming' upon leaving here. Imagine trying to deprogram oneself while still here...pretty challenging.

 

[cast.sheep]

Isn't there ANYONE out there who can or will defend them? I am truly shocked that the consensus seems so one-sided.

 

[bgwilkinson]

At one time I defended our former pastors, however too much has been reveled in the last 20 or so years that makes it totally impossible to mount any kind of defense whatsoever.

Many of us older ones want to see a Church-wide repentance of our past covered-up and lied about sins.

Repentance is a hard thing when so many members are serving the master of pride and arrogance.

However, Things are slowly changing, but it will take many years.

 

[rsc2a]

The biggest problem with teaching a works-based faith is that you have to look perfect all the time.

 

[prophet]

The biggest problem with teaching a works-based faith is that you have to look perfect all the time.

Which means cover up...

 

[Fresh Air]

Isn't there ANYONE out there who can or will defend them? I am truly shocked that the consensus seems so one-sided.

I do not believe FBCH is a cult, nor do I believe it ever was one. I believe it could have become one under JS if he had continued down the road he was on. I have had this discussion numerous times with numerous people and simply do not care to get into the nuts and bolts of it again.

Cult of personality? Yes. Cult? Nope.

 

[Walt]

From time-to-time I read a post from someone who compares FBCH/HAC to a cult.  They may comment that they are trying to heal since they left.  They may act as if they need a deprogramming time.  They may allude to the thought that their life is a mess because of FBCH/HAC.

Personally I only spent 4 years as a college student.  I learned many life lessons that have helped me throughout my life.  I saw negative things that I left behind.  On my worst day at HAC/FBCH I never considered them a cult in any way.  I made the decision to attend HAC, and I made the decision to graduate.  I made the decision to leave after I graduated.

Now, I realize everyone's experience is different.  Some grew up at FBCH.  Some had parents who were on staff at HAC.  Some became staff members themselves.  Some stayed in the area after their HAC years.

Here is my topic for discussion - I realize that many on the HAC FFF are now anti HAC/FBCH.  Do you think it is fair to compare HAC to a cult?

It is certainly a fair comparison.

Definition is key; some have posted characteristics of a cult, and FBCH certainly met many of them.  But characteristics are just that - not a definition, just a description of some items.  Suppose it was just some "Third Baptist Church" in the next state... how would check for cult status?

 

[cast.sheep]

Isn't there ANYONE out there who can or will defend them? I am truly shocked that the consensus seems so one-sided.

I do not believe FBCH is a cult, nor do I believe it ever was one. I believe it could have become one under JS if he had continued down the road he was on. I have had this discussion numerous times with numerous people and simply do not care to get into the nuts and bolts of it again.

Cult of personality? Yes. Cult? Nope.

How can it be a "cult of personality" but not be a "cult"?  I understand that you don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of it...I'm just wondering how it can be one without being the other.  I think maybe longevity is, again, the key to how one feels about FBCH.  Those who came and went don't really have a clear understanding of how controlling it truly is/was and how many cult-like qualities there are/were.  Personally, I never felt like the theology of salvation was off.  But, just about everything else was.  Fathers had little to no control over their own families...at least not publicly.  You had to do it the FBC way...period.  I always wondered about that.  Why did the pastor have more control over a family than their own father??? Cult-like????  I think so.  How far did Jack Schaap have to go before it would have been considered a "cult"?  Did he have to offer kool-aid???  Believe me, there are those who WOULD drink it without question.  Even after the leadership KNEW of his crime, they offered him "sabattical" instead of firing him immediately.  What "church" does that to its own congregation??? 

Cult?  No cult?  All I know is that I'm glad I'm not there anymore.  Thirty years was enough.  Life outside of FBCH is AWESOME! Did life become problem-free?  Of course not.  But God's grace and His presence became so much more clear.  And, the Holy Spirit?  Didn't need Him while at FBCH.  There was a rule for everything.  Life was already programmed.  Didn't need Him.  Now, no one would actually say that.  But, that was still the case. 

Is there anyone on here who was at "Confession Camp"?  HB school camp in 1994 I believe.  I was.  Cult-like?  You betcha.  Scarred some kids for life. 

 

[brainisengaged]

cast.sheep said: Is there anyone on here who was at "Confession Camp"?  HB school camp in 1994 I believe.  I was.  Cult-like?  You betcha.  Scarred some kids for life.

That sounds pretty scary, cast.sheep.

I don't have any kids, but it is obvious even from afar that they (meaning 'those in charge of the youths') work very, very hard to get inside the kids' heads. It's pretty much Priority #1.

 

[Techmedic]

Confession camp.... I'm intrigued please tell us (me) more about this....

 

[no value]

I vote for CULT...but hey, I'm biased. Afterall...Jack Schaap is my.................................................(wait for it)................................father.

Or is it Darth Vader that's my dad?....sometimes I forget. ???

 

[Techmedic]

I vote for CULT...but hey, I'm biased. Afterall...Jack Schaap is my.................................................(wait for it)................................father.

Or is it Darth Vader that's my dad?....sometimes I forget. ???

Kenny... Is that you?
Or Jacklyn

 

[fishinnut]

I was doing some work at a new facility/factory where they do research & development for autos today. I noticed this sign in their main hallway & the same in their main conference room.

I would dare say that under Jackie-boy & JS at FBCH or WE & R Young at HAC this kind of independent thinking, question asking or challenging anything that does not line up with the Bible would have been trashed.

I will say that this would be a good banner at any Bible believing church or Christian college.

 

[BALAAM]

Isn't there ANYONE out there who can or will defend them? I am truly shocked that the consensus seems so one-sided.

I do not believe FBCH is a cult, nor do I believe it ever was one. I believe it could have become one under JS if he had continued down the road he was on. I have had this discussion numerous times with numerous people and simply do not care to get into the nuts and bolts of it again.

Cult of personality? Yes. Cult? Nope.

How can it be a "cult of personality" but not be a "cult"?  I understand that you don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of it...I'm just wondering how it can be one without being the other.  I think maybe longevity is, again, the key to how one feels about FBCH.  Those who came and went don't really have a clear understanding of how controlling it truly is/was and how many cult-like qualities there are/were.  Personally, I never felt like the theology of salvation was off.  But, just about everything else was.  Fathers had little to no control over their own families...at least not publicly.  You had to do it the FBC way...period.  I always wondered about that.  Why did the pastor have more control over a family than their own father??? Cult-like????  I think so.  How far did Jack Schaap have to go before it would have been considered a "cult"?  Did he have to offer kool-aid???  Believe me, there are those who WOULD drink it without question.  Even after the leadership KNEW of his crime, they offered him "sabattical" instead of firing him immediately.  What "church" does that to its own congregation??? 

Cult?  No cult?  All I know is that I'm glad I'm not there anymore.  Thirty years was enough.  Life outside of FBCH is AWESOME! Did life become problem-free?  Of course not.  But God's grace and His presence became so much more clear.  And, the Holy Spirit?  Didn't need Him while at FBCH.  There was a rule for everything.  Life was already programmed.  Didn't need Him.  Now, no one would actually say that.  But, that was still the case. 

Is there anyone on here who was at "Confession Camp"?  HB school camp in 1994 I believe.  I was.  Cult-like?  You betcha.  Scarred some kids for life.

Confession Camp? I thought it was a revival! And all due to Bob Gray Jr! (if this is the one you are talking about)

 

[cast.sheep]

Confession camp.... I'm intrigued please tell us (me) more about this....

The HB high school would go to camp for a week about the 3rd week of school in the fall. It was actually an awesome week. M-F. No radio, tv, etc. It was held at a camp about 5 hours east of Schererville. There was a big lake and EL would bring a boat and the Snures would bring boats and jet skis. The camp games were legendary! They were so brutal (but fun!) that every year someone would end up at the hospital. The kids LOVED camp week. There were easy classes in the mornings, chapel, lunch, games, dinner and then evening services. There was usually a guest speaker that week. The evening service invitations were always pressure filled, but the kids were used to it, and for the most part didn't mind.

"Confession Camp". Actually I think it was 1995. The speaker was a Gray. Not Scott, but his brother, I believe. Well, at the Thursday evening service he preached a message...I don't remember what it was about....but at the invitation he talked about how what he was about to do he had one with his own youth group and it was the best thing they had ever done. He somehow convinced the kids to start publicly confessing their "sins"...and not just their own but everyone else's too. If they confessed they were drinking, they were coerced into telling who else was with them, etc. He had EL and DB writing everything down. As you can imagine, there were kids there who were delighted to hear all the secret sins of certain other kids. And there were scenarios of kids who would tell what they thought they knew or what they had heard through the grapevine. This devastated kids who were falsely accused.  Not a single person in authority stood up and said "This is wrong!"  But, I get it. You couldn't. Standing up to the authority was worse than drinking, sleeping with boyfriends, listening to rock music, etc.  You had to be there to really understand how crazy that night was. Imagine if your kid was there and went through that. Parents were livid, but they had no recourse. None.

JH heard about it and made the decision not to punish the kids, but no one ever publicly stood up and told the kids that what happened that night was wrong.

That is just ONE story.

 

[sword]

For years youth speakers from FBC & other places would roll into youth conferences & camps & declare this or that to be wrong & pastors & youth pastors would go along. For the next 10 years whatever the speakers pet issue was would become forbidden.

Policy & standards should not be dictated by a random speakers whims.

There are so many example of this. I remember a speaker who spent 30 minutes railing about the wickedness of big time wrestling & NASCAR. I remember another who railed about video games & yet another about narrow ties & non-white dress shirts. The list is endless.

Does anyone else have examples?

 

[Walt]

For years youth speakers from FBC & other places would roll into youth conferences & camps & declare this or that to be wrong & pastors & youth pastors would go along. For the next 10 years whatever the speakers pet issue was would become forbidden.

Policy & standards should not be dictated by a random speakers whims.

There are so many example of this. I remember a speaker who spent 30 minutes railing about the wickedness of big time wrestling & NASCAR. I remember another who railed about video games & yet another about narrow ties & non-white dress shirts. The list is endless.

Does anyone else have examples?

...and thus, when I see on church web sites that they use the Bible as their "only rule of faith and practice", I often laugh and think that they should add, in truth, "and whatever Dr Hyles told us to do"

I've definitely seen such a thing.  It's a real pity that there were not more pastor who would go back home and say "Folks, that's just Bro X's opinion, and he's has a right to his opinion. However, we determine our standards from the Scriptures, and they just don't support that opinion."

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

Been thinking a lot about this thread, but haven't commented....
Last night I was looking through some old photo albums and came to my HAC days. Many times I had seen the picture, but guess it was just what had been on my mind that clicked. Saw a picture I probably took of a lady HAC student w/ a JH button on. May have just been his picture on it, could have had his name; did not have 100% on it. Those came a little later.
Anyway, I thought what kind of situation is where an early 20's lady wears a pin like that? Maybe a political campaign, but of your pastor????????? Yes, I know the drill, but all this stuff continually looks odder and odder to me the older I get.

 

[prophet]

For years youth speakers from FBC & other places would roll into youth conferences & camps & declare this or that to be wrong & pastors & youth pastors would go along. For the next 10 years whatever the speakers pet issue was would become forbidden.

Policy & standards should not be dictated by a random speakers whims.

There are so many example of this. I remember a speaker who spent 30 minutes railing about the wickedness of big time wrestling & NASCAR. I remember another who railed about video games & yet another about narrow ties & non-white dress shirts. The list is endless.

Does anyone else have examples?

...and thus, when I see on church web sites that they use the Bible as their "only rule of faith and practice", I often laugh and think that they should add, in truth, "and whatever Dr Hyles told us to do"

I've definitely seen such a thing.  It's a real pity that there were not more pastor who would go back home and say "Folks, that's just Bro X's opinion, and he's has a right to his opinion. However, we determine our standards from the Scriptures, and they just don't support that opinion."

This is exactly what I needed, when I went back to church.
The pastor said, "Hyles says don't accuse his staff to him, well that's his opinion, he ain't God.  If you think somebody is messin around, tell me, I want to find out what's going on and clean house."

I would never have stayed in church, if I hadn't heard this.

Then he said: "Some knucklehead (Dean Miller) said we are Baptists cuz John the Baptist was...then tell me why his converts had to get rebaptized!"

Thank God I heard some balance, before returning to 1994 FBCH/HAC, because it was a cuckoo's nest of cover up, when I got back.

 

[prophet]

Been thinking a lot about this thread, but haven't commented....
Last night I was looking through some old photo albums and came to my HAC days. Many times I had seen the picture, but guess it was just what had been on my mind that clicked. Saw a picture I probably took of a lady HAC student w/ a JH button on. May have just been his picture on it, could have had his name; did not have 100% on it. Those came a little later.
Anyway, I thought what kind of situation is where an early 20's lady wears a pin like that? Maybe a political campaign, but of your pastor????????? Yes, I know the drill, but all this stuff continually looks odder and odder to me the older I get.

I found an old VHS tape, with A college girl and Dr.Hyles pictured on it, standing in the lobby if HAC.
The caption says "Imagine yourself here, with Dr.Hyles"

I will try to post a pic of it later.