HAC School Year of 2012-13

[HAC_Rebel2014]

Just want to tell a story for no particular reason.

Don't know if anyone will even read this.

Life as an HAC student in the 2012-2013 school year...

News got out that Jack Schaap was in big trouble after Youth Conference 2012. People wondered why he didn't close out the conference.

If most of your friends were fundamentalist and had social media at that time, Facebook was crazy and full of debates for weeks. My pastor called to tell me the news and tried to convince me to still go to HAC. I was about to enter my junior year of college so I kinda wanted to finish what I started despite friends at church telling me how glad they were for not enrolling at HAC.


Many of us knew that a lot of students wouldn't return and some pastors would cut ties with FBCH/HAC. When I was a freshman in 2010, enrollment was at 1200 students so they say. When the 2012-2013 school year started enrollment was at about 500 students and would be the final year of the Jericho Plan, Schaap's free- college-for-2-years plan. A lot of teachers got laid off and there was a very pessimistic atmosphere in September and October.

Raymond Hancock was the preacher for opening day. In fact, we had a lot of guest preachers for Sunday nights too like Jack Trieber, Clarence Sexton, and some other big names who I forgot. Eddie Lapina was running the show on Sunday mornings.

The first Saturday for bus calling and soul winning was a nightmare. Many people in Chicago knew what had happened, so they would just laugh and slam the door on us.

On one of the chapel services on the second week of school, Ken Schaap was scheduled to preach. The whole chapel was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. I don't think anyone was asleep for this. Everyone thought he was going to mention his dad in his sermon or say something about the situation FBC is going through, but his sermon had no mentioning of that and he just gave regular sermon to everyone.

The dorms were dorms. Crazy HAC men doing crazy stuff like every school year. We were all prohibited from watching movies on our laptops but a lot of us did it anyways and no one would really tattle on us. It was a period when smartphones were on the rise and students would "take notes" on their phones during class.

The 2 most common topics in the dorms were...
1. Who will the next pastor be?
2. Will this be the final semester of HAC? If so, were will you go to college?

Some of us were talking about filling out applications for Crown College, Pensacola and West Coast. Some did end up leaving.
We also shared our thoughts on who the next pastor would be. All kind of names came up like Scott Gray, Rick Finley, Bruce Goddard, Jack Trieber, Ken Schaap, Freddy De Anda and etc.

HAC remained open for the spring semester. So a lot of us were happy.

It was a good school year for me personally, I slowly grew out of the fear of asking someone out. I had several dates that year. One date I had in particular was at a bus rally for the fall program. John Wilkerson was the guest speaker. I told my date that I think he will be the next pastor and she looked at me like I was crazy. Also in the bus ministry, things went well for me too. Our route set records that year and I never thought I had the skills to convince people to come to church. I wasn't so good at it during my freshman and sophomore years, but that year was exceptional.

Winter came around and people started getting impatient about who the next pastor would be. At church they kept giving us the same answer. The "pulpit committee" is still deciding.

A few weeks into the second semester, it was starting to leak that John Wilkerson was going to come to FBCH and preach as a candidate for pastor. Looking back it, I am not sure if candidate was the right word to use because there were no other candidates that came and spoke. They had their man.

The vote I believe was that same night after he had just finished preaching or maybe it was the following week (don't remember but it wasn't too long). It was supposed to be a vote for members of FBCH but I think a lot of non members voted too. They handed out the voting slips to everyone like candy. So that very night Pastor Wilkerson became the pastor I believe with over 90% of the vote and no other candidate to give it a shot. Maybe no one else wanted it.

Some people didn't like him because he doesn't shout like Schaap did in his sermons. Some students called him the Baptist Joel Osteen. I was more impressed he actually goes visiting and often talked about his experiences when he was out soul winning. He even said he has no problem driving the church bus to help out some bus captain in need.

My biggest struggle that year was paying my school bill. I picked up an overnight shift job and somehow managed to pay for my school and pass my classes. It was scary at one point because I was so broke, but there was plenty of overtime.

(This is getting long....I should end this soon)

They even lowered some dress standards for men. As long as classes were over for the day, men could walk around campus with no suit coat or tie. This included the dinning hall.

It was definitely the most unforgettable school year at HAC. It was amazing to see who left and who stayed. HAC stayed opened that school year and still is open today. What a crazy place...8400 Burr Street....still can't believe I remember that address....

 

[Jo]

I'm a HAC graduate from 1978, the "glory" years. Such an amazing contrast from those days to 2012. The lessons learned from your years at HAC could not be taught from a book. You were in the middle of a new phase in fundamentalism. It included accountability, which had been lacking for many years.

The David Cloud quote below seems to fit.

"As I said in The Two Jacks, which was first published March 2012, in the chapter on “The Fruit of Hylesism” --

“The fruit of the Hyles model and methodology has often consisted of moral and spiritual shipwreck. Multitudes of former members of Hyles-type churches, having witnessed so much error and hypocrisy, have abandoned church altogether. Or they have explored the contemporary emerging philosophy, having allegedly found more spiritual reality in those circles than they witnessed in ‘fundamentalism.’ Being the products of shallow evangelism, many of these have never been biblically converted. They have prayed a sinner’s prayer but haven’t been born again. Having never had a real and dynamic relationship with Christ, they are man-followers, and when the man fails, they are offended and quit, sometimes blaming Christ and the church for something that is man’s fault alone. Even if they were truly saved, they were not properly discipled and grounded in the Scriptures and in solid doctrinal truth. All too typically they have been used or neglected and sometimes abused, but not shepherded” (The Two Jacks: Hyles and Schaap, March 2012)."

Personally, I no longer attend an IFB church and don't miss it a bit.

 

[fishinnut]

Just want to tell a story for no particular reason.

Don't know if anyone will even read this.

Life as an HAC student in the 2012-2013 school year...

John Wilkerson was the guest speaker. I told my date that I think he will be the next pastor and she looked at me like I was crazy. Also in the bus ministry, things went well for me too. Our route set records that year and I never thought I had the skills to convince people to come to church. I wasn't so good at it during my freshman and sophomore years, but that year was exceptional.

Winter came around and people started getting impatient about who the next pastor would be. At church they kept giving us the same answer. The "pulpit committee" is still deciding.

A few weeks into the second semester, it was starting to leak that John Wilkerson was going to come to FBCH and preach as a candidate for pastor. Looking back it, I am not sure if candidate was the right word to use because there were no other candidates that came and spoke. They had their man.

The vote I believe was that same night after he had just finished preaching or maybe it was the following week (don't remember but it wasn't too long). It was supposed to be a vote for members of FBCH but I think a lot of non members voted too. They handed out the voting slips to everyone like candy. So that very night Pastor Wilkerson became the pastor I believe with over 90% of the vote and no other candidate to give it a shot. Maybe no one else wanted it.

Some people didn't like him because he doesn't shout like Schaap did in his sermons. Some students called him the Baptist Joel Osteen. I was more impressed he actually goes visiting and often talked about his experiences when he was out soul winning. He even said he has no problem driving the church bus to help out some bus captain in need.

Thanks for the insights from someone who was onsite at HAC & FBCH.

The parts that I have copied from the post, especially during an election year, make me think that many time Baptist churches are not as wise about calling a new pastor as the world is about electing new political leadership.

From the time I was in 4th grade as a kid, I have been a church member. Back then pulpit committees would travel to check out a preacher & visit his ministry on a Sunday to experience how he lead his current ministry, what the atmosphere of the services where like, to talk with those seated around them to get some recon from the people in the pews. Then they would contact the man, ask if he was interested, if so ask for a doctrinal statement & maybe send him a questionnaire, etc. After that he would be invited to preach a number of Sundays so that the church members could hear him & spend some time getting to see how he & his family might fit in. Many times nowadays all that is done is similar to how FBCH handled the Wilkerson situation. Most church members are left in the dark & have very little knowledge of the candidate apart from how he preaches.

Candidates for public office have to run on their record, propose what & how they would conduct the business of the office & participate in debates. That way those voting have a better idea of who they are voting for and have a decent evaluation in making their decision.

I'm saying that Mt. 10:16 "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." is not part of the process enough.

 

[AverageJoe]

I'm a HAC graduate from 1978, the "glory" years. Such an amazing contrast from those days to 2012. The lessons learned from your years at HAC could not be taught from a book. You were in the middle of a new phase in fundamentalism. It included accountability, which had been lacking for many years.

The David Cloud quote below seems to fit.

"As I said in The Two Jacks, which was first published March 2012, in the chapter on “The Fruit of Hylesism” --

“The fruit of the Hyles model and methodology has often consisted of moral and spiritual shipwreck. Multitudes of former members of Hyles-type churches, having witnessed so much error and hypocrisy, have abandoned church altogether. Or they have explored the contemporary emerging philosophy, having allegedly found more spiritual reality in those circles than they witnessed in ‘fundamentalism.’ Being the products of shallow evangelism, many of these have never been biblically converted. They have prayed a sinner’s prayer but haven’t been born again. Having never had a real and dynamic relationship with Christ, they are man-followers, and when the man fails, they are offended and quit, sometimes blaming Christ and the church for something that is man’s fault alone. Even if they were truly saved, they were not properly discipled and grounded in the Scriptures and in solid doctrinal truth. All too typically they have been used or neglected and sometimes abused, but not shepherded” (The Two Jacks: Hyles and Schaap, March 2012)."

Personally, I no longer attend an IFB church and don't miss it a bit.

Because of my interactions with Cloud over the years by email, I no longer read his column unless there is something I just have to use him for. When he's confronted with false information being sent out in his newsletter or on his Way of Life site, he's hateful, and ungracious, and attacks the one who has confronted him. That being said,, he does have SOME good information. My wife and I left the IFB movement back in 2000. I know how you feel about not missing it one bit!

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Just want to tell a story for no particular reason.

Don't know if anyone will even read this.

Life as an HAC student in the 2012-2013 school year...

News got out that Jack Schaap was in big trouble after Youth Conference 2012. People wondered why he didn't close out the conference.

If most of your friends were fundamentalist and had social media at that time, Facebook was crazy and full of debates for weeks. My pastor called to tell me the news and tried to convince me to still go to HAC. I was about to enter my junior year of college so I kinda wanted to finish what I started despite friends at church telling me how glad they were for not enrolling at HAC.


Many of us knew that a lot of students wouldn't return and some pastors would cut ties with FBCH/HAC. When I was a freshman in 2010, enrollment was at 1200 students so they say. When the 2012-2013 school year started enrollment was at about 500 students and would be the final year of the Jericho Plan, Schaap's free- college-for-2-years plan. A lot of teachers got laid off and there was a very pessimistic atmosphere in September and October.

Raymond Hancock was the preacher for opening day. In fact, we had a lot of guest preachers for Sunday nights too like Jack Trieber, Clarence Sexton, and some other big names who I forgot. Eddie Lapina was running the show on Sunday mornings.

The first Saturday for bus calling and soul winning was a nightmare. Many people in Chicago knew what had happened, so they would just laugh and slam the door on us.

On one of the chapel services on the second week of school, Ken Schaap was scheduled to preach. The whole chapel was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. I don't think anyone was asleep for this. Everyone thought he was going to mention his dad in his sermon or say something about the situation FBC is going through, but his sermon had no mentioning of that and he just gave regular sermon to everyone.

The dorms were dorms. Crazy HAC men doing crazy stuff like every school year. We were all prohibited from watching movies on our laptops but a lot of us did it anyways and no one would really tattle on us. It was a period when smartphones were on the rise and students would "take notes" on their phones during class.

The 2 most common topics in the dorms were...
1. Who will the next pastor be?
2. Will this be the final semester of HAC? If so, were will you go to college?

Some of us were talking about filling out applications for Crown College, Pensacola and West Coast. Some did end up leaving.
We also shared our thoughts on who the next pastor would be. All kind of names came up like Scott Gray, Rick Finley, Bruce Goddard, Jack Trieber, Ken Schaap, Freddy De Anda and etc.

HAC remained open for the spring semester. So a lot of us were happy.

It was a good school year for me personally, I slowly grew out of the fear of asking someone out. I had several dates that year. One date I had in particular was at a bus rally for the fall program. John Wilkerson was the guest speaker. I told my date that I think he will be the next pastor and she looked at me like I was crazy. Also in the bus ministry, things went well for me too. Our route set records that year and I never thought I had the skills to convince people to come to church. I wasn't so good at it during my freshman and sophomore years, but that year was exceptional.

Winter came around and people started getting impatient about who the next pastor would be. At church they kept giving us the same answer. The "pulpit committee" is still deciding.

A few weeks into the second semester, it was starting to leak that John Wilkerson was going to come to FBCH and preach as a candidate for pastor. Looking back it, I am not sure if candidate was the right word to use because there were no other candidates that came and spoke. They had their man.

The vote I believe was that same night after he had just finished preaching or maybe it was the following week (don't remember but it wasn't too long). It was supposed to be a vote for members of FBCH but I think a lot of non members voted too. They handed out the voting slips to everyone like candy. So that very night Pastor Wilkerson became the pastor I believe with over 90% of the vote and no other candidate to give it a shot. Maybe no one else wanted it.

Some people didn't like him because he doesn't shout like Schaap did in his sermons. Some students called him the Baptist Joel Osteen. I was more impressed he actually goes visiting and often talked about his experiences when he was out soul winning. He even said he has no problem driving the church bus to help out some bus captain in need.

My biggest struggle that year was paying my school bill. I picked up an overnight shift job and somehow managed to pay for my school and pass my classes. It was scary at one point because I was so broke, but there was plenty of overtime.

(This is getting long....I should end this soon)

They even lowered some dress standards for men. As long as classes were over for the day, men could walk around campus with no suit coat or tie. This included the dinning hall.

It was definitely the most unforgettable school year at HAC. It was amazing to see who left and who stayed. HAC stayed opened that school year and still is open today. What a crazy place...8400 Burr Street....still can't believe I remember that address....

Thanks for posting! I was gone by then, serving in a church in the middle of nowhere. Thanks for sharing what that experience was. Sure would have been different than my experience at HAC. I enjoyed reading and would encourage you to share more.

 

[WESLEY]

Thanks for the insights from someone who was onsite at HAC & FBCH.

The parts that I have copied from the post, especially during an election year, make me think that many time Baptist churches are not as wise about calling a new pastor as the world is about electing new political leadership.

From the time I was in 4th grade as a kid, I have been a church member. Back then pulpit committees would travel to check out a preacher & visit his ministry on a Sunday to experience how he lead his current ministry, what the atmosphere of the services where like, to talk with those seated around them to get some recon from the people in the pews. Then they would contact the man, ask if he was interested, if so ask for a doctrinal statement & maybe send him a questionnaire, etc. After that he would be invited to preach a number of Sundays so that the church members could hear him & spend some time getting to see how he & his family might fit in. Many times nowadays all that is done is similar to how FBCH handled the Wilkerson situation. Most church members are left in the dark & have very little knowledge of the candidate apart from how he preaches.

Candidates for public office have to run on their record, propose what & how they would conduct the business of the office & participate in debates. That way those voting have a better idea of who they are voting for and have a decent evaluation in making their decision.

I'm saying that Mt. 10:16 "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." is not part of the process enough.

Actually, some of this is inaccurate.

*A few members of the pulpit committee did travel to Long Beach and sat in the services (English, Spanish, Asian, etc).
*The prev. poster is correct that slips were handed out to those who said they were members. The members had to sign the back of the form. This was checked against the active membership roll; Those not active members were discarded. According to our new constitution, we only counted the votes of those 18+.

 

[Bob Jones V]

Just want to tell a story for no particular reason.

Don't know if anyone will even read this.

Life as an HAC student in the 2012-2013 school year...

News got out that Jack Schaap was in big trouble after Youth Conference 2012. People wondered why he didn't close out the conference.

If most of your friends were fundamentalist and had social media at that time, Facebook was crazy and full of debates for weeks. My pastor called to tell me the news and tried to convince me to still go to HAC. I was about to enter my junior year of college so I kinda wanted to finish what I started despite friends at church telling me how glad they were for not enrolling at HAC.


Many of us knew that a lot of students wouldn't return and some pastors would cut ties with FBCH/HAC. When I was a freshman in 2010, enrollment was at 1200 students so they say. When the 2012-2013 school year started enrollment was at about 500 students and would be the final year of the Jericho Plan, Schaap's free- college-for-2-years plan. A lot of teachers got laid off and there was a very pessimistic atmosphere in September and October.

Raymond Hancock was the preacher for opening day. In fact, we had a lot of guest preachers for Sunday nights too like Jack Trieber, Clarence Sexton, and some other big names who I forgot. Eddie Lapina was running the show on Sunday mornings.

The first Saturday for bus calling and soul winning was a nightmare. Many people in Chicago knew what had happened, so they would just laugh and slam the door on us.

On one of the chapel services on the second week of school, Ken Schaap was scheduled to preach. The whole chapel was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. I don't think anyone was asleep for this. Everyone thought he was going to mention his dad in his sermon or say something about the situation FBC is going through, but his sermon had no mentioning of that and he just gave regular sermon to everyone.

The dorms were dorms. Crazy HAC men doing crazy stuff like every school year. We were all prohibited from watching movies on our laptops but a lot of us did it anyways and no one would really tattle on us. It was a period when smartphones were on the rise and students would "take notes" on their phones during class.

The 2 most common topics in the dorms were...
1. Who will the next pastor be?
2. Will this be the final semester of HAC? If so, were will you go to college?

Some of us were talking about filling out applications for Crown College, Pensacola and West Coast. Some did end up leaving.
We also shared our thoughts on who the next pastor would be. All kind of names came up like Scott Gray, Rick Finley, Bruce Goddard, Jack Trieber, Ken Schaap, Freddy De Anda and etc.

HAC remained open for the spring semester. So a lot of us were happy.

It was a good school year for me personally, I slowly grew out of the fear of asking someone out. I had several dates that year. One date I had in particular was at a bus rally for the fall program. John Wilkerson was the guest speaker. I told my date that I think he will be the next pastor and she looked at me like I was crazy. Also in the bus ministry, things went well for me too. Our route set records that year and I never thought I had the skills to convince people to come to church. I wasn't so good at it during my freshman and sophomore years, but that year was exceptional.

Winter came around and people started getting impatient about who the next pastor would be. At church they kept giving us the same answer. The "pulpit committee" is still deciding.

A few weeks into the second semester, it was starting to leak that John Wilkerson was going to come to FBCH and preach as a candidate for pastor. Looking back it, I am not sure if candidate was the right word to use because there were no other candidates that came and spoke. They had their man.

The vote I believe was that same night after he had just finished preaching or maybe it was the following week (don't remember but it wasn't too long). It was supposed to be a vote for members of FBCH but I think a lot of non members voted too. They handed out the voting slips to everyone like candy. So that very night Pastor Wilkerson became the pastor I believe with over 90% of the vote and no other candidate to give it a shot. Maybe no one else wanted it.

Some people didn't like him because he doesn't shout like Schaap did in his sermons. Some students called him the Baptist Joel Osteen. I was more impressed he actually goes visiting and often talked about his experiences when he was out soul winning. He even said he has no problem driving the church bus to help out some bus captain in need.

My biggest struggle that year was paying my school bill. I picked up an overnight shift job and somehow managed to pay for my school and pass my classes. It was scary at one point because I was so broke, but there was plenty of overtime.

(This is getting long....I should end this soon)

They even lowered some dress standards for men. As long as classes were over for the day, men could walk around campus with no suit coat or tie. This included the dinning hall.

It was definitely the most unforgettable school year at HAC. It was amazing to see who left and who stayed. HAC stayed opened that school year and still is open today. What a crazy place...8400 Burr Street....still can't believe I remember that address....

I was waiting for some real revelation. Nothing really new or interesting. No jacket or tie after classes is not a lower dress standard. It is less of the legalism that ruined fundamentalism, although I know it is from your point of view, and the more legalistic, the "higher" the standard, from your perspective. The standard is modesty, not bringing attention to yourself, and wearing a tie and jacket is actually binging attention to yourself, so it is a lower standard, more worldly. Worldly is something that takes attention from the Glory of God, and puts it on me or someone else.

 

[AverageJoe]

I was waiting for some real revelation. Nothing really new or interesting. No jacket or tie after classes is not a lower dress standard. It is less of the legalism that ruined fundamentalism, although I know it is from your point of view, and the more legalistic, the "higher" the standard, from your perspective. The standard is modesty, not bringing attention to yourself, and wearing a tie and jacket is actually binging attention to yourself, so it is a lower standard, more worldly. Worldly is something that takes attention from the Glory of God, and puts it on me or someone else.

I sort of felt it was a letdown as well, not just a rehash of old information. But, it's good to vent at times.

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

Just want to tell a story for no particular reason.

Don't know if anyone will even read this.

Life as an HAC student in the 2012-2013 school year...

News got out that Jack Schaap was in big trouble after Youth Conference 2012. People wondered why he didn't close out the conference.

If most of your friends were fundamentalist and had social media at that time, Facebook was crazy and full of debates for weeks. My pastor called to tell me the news and tried to convince me to still go to HAC. I was about to enter my junior year of college so I kinda wanted to finish what I started despite friends at church telling me how glad they were for not enrolling at HAC.


Many of us knew that a lot of students wouldn't return and some pastors would cut ties with FBCH/HAC. When I was a freshman in 2010, enrollment was at 1200 students so they say. When the 2012-2013 school year started enrollment was at about 500 students and would be the final year of the Jericho Plan, Schaap's free- college-for-2-years plan. A lot of teachers got laid off and there was a very pessimistic atmosphere in September and October.

Raymond Hancock was the preacher for opening day. In fact, we had a lot of guest preachers for Sunday nights too like Jack Trieber, Clarence Sexton, and some other big names who I forgot. Eddie Lapina was running the show on Sunday mornings.

The first Saturday for bus calling and soul winning was a nightmare. Many people in Chicago knew what had happened, so they would just laugh and slam the door on us.

On one of the chapel services on the second week of school, Ken Schaap was scheduled to preach. The whole chapel was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. I don't think anyone was asleep for this. Everyone thought he was going to mention his dad in his sermon or say something about the situation FBC is going through, but his sermon had no mentioning of that and he just gave regular sermon to everyone.

The dorms were dorms. Crazy HAC men doing crazy stuff like every school year. We were all prohibited from watching movies on our laptops but a lot of us did it anyways and no one would really tattle on us. It was a period when smartphones were on the rise and students would "take notes" on their phones during class.

The 2 most common topics in the dorms were...
1. Who will the next pastor be?
2. Will this be the final semester of HAC? If so, were will you go to college?

Some of us were talking about filling out applications for Crown College, Pensacola and West Coast. Some did end up leaving.
We also shared our thoughts on who the next pastor would be. All kind of names came up like Scott Gray, Rick Finley, Bruce Goddard, Jack Trieber, Ken Schaap, Freddy De Anda and etc.

HAC remained open for the spring semester. So a lot of us were happy.

It was a good school year for me personally, I slowly grew out of the fear of asking someone out. I had several dates that year. One date I had in particular was at a bus rally for the fall program. John Wilkerson was the guest speaker. I told my date that I think he will be the next pastor and she looked at me like I was crazy. Also in the bus ministry, things went well for me too. Our route set records that year and I never thought I had the skills to convince people to come to church. I wasn't so good at it during my freshman and sophomore years, but that year was exceptional.

Winter came around and people started getting impatient about who the next pastor would be. At church they kept giving us the same answer. The "pulpit committee" is still deciding.

A few weeks into the second semester, it was starting to leak that John Wilkerson was going to come to FBCH and preach as a candidate for pastor. Looking back it, I am not sure if candidate was the right word to use because there were no other candidates that came and spoke. They had their man.

The vote I believe was that same night after he had just finished preaching or maybe it was the following week (don't remember but it wasn't too long). It was supposed to be a vote for members of FBCH but I think a lot of non members voted too. They handed out the voting slips to everyone like candy. So that very night Pastor Wilkerson became the pastor I believe with over 90% of the vote and no other candidate to give it a shot. Maybe no one else wanted it.

Some people didn't like him because he doesn't shout like Schaap did in his sermons. Some students called him the Baptist Joel Osteen. I was more impressed he actually goes visiting and often talked about his experiences when he was out soul winning. He even said he has no problem driving the church bus to help out some bus captain in need.

My biggest struggle that year was paying my school bill. I picked up an overnight shift job and somehow managed to pay for my school and pass my classes. It was scary at one point because I was so broke, but there was plenty of overtime.

(This is getting long....I should end this soon)

They even lowered some dress standards for men. As long as classes were over for the day, men could walk around campus with no suit coat or tie. This included the dinning hall.

It was definitely the most unforgettable school year at HAC. It was amazing to see who left and who stayed. HAC stayed opened that school year and still is open today. What a crazy place...8400 Burr Street....still can't believe I remember that address....

I enjoyed reading this. Class of '85 here. I forget the college phone number but will always remember the church number, 219-932-0711 and yes 8400 Burr Street as well.

 

[sword]

In my opinion BJV's statement below is ridiculous.

"The standard is modesty, not bringing attention to yourself, and wearing a tie and jacket is actually binging attention to yourself, so it is a lower standard, more worldly. Worldly is something that takes attention from the Glory of God,"

If the past you would always wear a tie to a business meeting, wedding, funeral, interview and even a fancy dinner with family or friends. The military still maintains very high dress standards in most settings. The world adopted the casual dress standard long before business and churches so how you could say it's worldly to wear a suit and tie is beyond me.

That being said, I do not think there is any reason to wear a suit or tie or even a dress shirt in your personal time or even at meals unless it's a special formal event. I still dress up for Sunday services, but I have no problem with choose to be more casual in there services. To each there own. I still prefer hymns but understand those who prefer a more worship music style service. As independent churches I think it's important for each church to find what works for them. I also think someone should feel completely comfortable in any church regardless of what they wear as long as it's modest. We should welcome people into our churches regardless of how they dress.

 

[Bob Jones V]

In my opinion this statement is ridiculous.

"The standard is modesty, not bringing attention to yourself, and wearing a tie and jacket is actually binging attention to yourself, so it is a lower standard, more worldly. Worldly is something that takes attention from the Glory of God,"

If the past you would always wear a tie to a business meeting, wedding, funeral, interview and even a fancy dinner with family or friends. The military still maintains very high dress standards in most settings. The world adopted the casual dress standard long before business and churches so how you could say it's worldly to wear a suit and tie is beyond me.

That being said, I do not think there is any reason to wear a suit or tie or even a dress shirt in your personal time or even at meals unless it's a special formal event. I still dress up for Sunday services, but I have no problem with choose to be more casual in there services. To each there own. I still prefer hymns but understand those who prefer a more worship music style service. As independent churches I think it's important for each church to find what works for them. I also think someone should feel completely comfortable in any church regardless of what they wear as long as it's modest. We should welcome people into our churches regardless of how they dress.

In College, not at a wedding or funeral or interview or fancy dinner. That is what he is talking about, wearing a jacket and tie around the college campus.

 

[sword]

Thank you Hac_Rebel2014, Wesley Fishinnut and others for your memories.

​

 

[sword]

In College, idiot, not at a wedding or funeral or interview or fancy dinner. That is what he is talking about, wearing a jacket and tie around the college campus.

but how would that ever make them worldly. Extreme maybe or odd but not worldly.

 

[Bob Jones V]

but how would that ever make them worldly. Extreme maybe or odd but not worldly.

To me, this is a very serious answer.
Because 2 things. 1. the definition of worldly comes from 1 John 2
"The pride of life" is a universal tendency among humans to want attention, praise, approval, likes, from others.
2. Jesus said in John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? He was saying that when we look for people to approve, praise, notice, admire us, we are receiving glory from one another, and cannot be believers. "How can you believe?" is a rhetorical question. It means, you cannot.

 

[sword]

I believe many prestigious universities such as Oxford and nearly all military colleges have strict dress codes during the school day. I realize HAC is neither, but it's there school there rules. I would think wearing suits would make you look different, even peculiar not worldly. Wearing shorts and a t shirts to classes would make you look more worldly than a suit and tie.

We agree, after school hours I see no reason for dress clothes at all. My point is it might be unnecessary, but its is surely not worldly.

 

[AverageJoe]

I can tell you now, my hair doesn't stay short. I let it grow during the winter and get it cut in March or April each year. It sometimes will grow to my shoulders. And, my beard, which Hyles was against 1000% is longer than Santa's at times! In fact, I've been asked to play Santa for the last 16 years, but, I haven't done it. I've considered it, though. I could really use the money at times. I don't go for all this legalism and unprovable standards that people have tried to impose on others. My love and service to God has nothing to do with their man-made rules.

 

[sword]

I can tell you now, my hair doesn't stay short. I let it grow during the winter and get it cut in March or April each year. It sometimes will grow to my shoulders. And, my beard, which Hyles was against 1000% is longer than Santa's at times! In fact, I've been asked to play Santa for the last 16 years, but, I haven't done it. I've considered it, though. I could really use the money at times. I don't go for all this legalism and unprovable standards that people have tried to impose on others. My love and service to God has nothing to do with their man-made rules.

I try not to judge other choices and convictions, but since you said they were man made rules, was it Hyles or John Rice who wrote: 1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given for a covering.

I try to get my standards from the bible and then my preferences are formed along the way. If they are my preference then they are my choice and I let other make their own choices. I try to make sure my standards are Bible based and in many cases the Bible seems to be very clear.

If you read the sermons from the 1700's and 1800's you will know preaching against things did not start with Hyles. Whether you think they are man made or not preachers have been preaching against things for generations. I remember reading that many preachers used to rail against riding bikes on Sunday in the late 1800's and early 1900's.

 

[AverageJoe]

I try not to judge other choices and convictions, but since you said they were man made rules, was it Hyles or John Rice who wrote: 1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given for a covering.

I try to get my standards from the bible and then my preferences are formed along the way. If they are my preference then they are my choice and I let other make their own choices. I try to make sure my standardsThat's are Bible based and in many cases the Bible seems to be very clear.

If you read the sermons from the 1700's and 1800's you will know preaching against things did not start with Hyles. Whether you think they are man made or not preachers have been preaching against things for generations. I remember reading that many preachers used to rail against riding bikes on Sunday in the late 1800's and early 1900's.

That's a misapplication of that scripture. If you read that carefully it's a question...not a statement. And even if it were a statement, who is to decide what "long" is? If you look at the "church fathers" many of them have what would be considered long hair by many in today's IFB pharisaical standards. Nowhere in the Bible does it give a specific length, style or otherwise. Let's be real and honest about these things.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

If we’re really going to go back in time for our standards, many men in Europe and colonial America were wearing long haired wigs whenever in public. Then, of course, the great Charles Spurgeon enjoyed both cigars and alcohol (to the dismay of many Christians, even back then.) By the way, although I don’t know him personally, I consider Phil Robertson to be one of the finest Christian men to ever have anything to do with Hollywood, in fact, he lost millions standing up to Hollywood by refusing to compromise over his biblically held beliefs. And…you guessed it, long hair and long beard. As it turns out, Jack Hyles’ own son, Dave, always sported conservative short hair and no beard. I don’t know about y’all, but in this case, I’d trust the old dude with the beard and long hair to watch my daughter over the guy with the IFB “look.” (I have a feeling you would too.)

 

[voicecrying]

That's a misapplication of that scripture. If you read that carefully it's a question...not a statement. And even if it were a statement, who is to decide what "long" is? If you look at the "church fathers" many of them have what would be considered long hair by many in today's IFB pharisaical standards. Nowhere in the Bible does it give a specific length, style or otherwise. Let's be real and honest about these things.

You also have to consider what exactly Paul was addressing in the entire passage.