HAC School Year of 2012-13

I think you guys are reading Tides wrong. Tides is not a friend or supporter of DH.
Before responding, I took a few minutes to review some of TidesofUntruth’s recent posts. He might not be a supporter, but he’s certainly not an outspoken opponent. To besmirch a man who literally gave up millions of dollars by not compromising on calling homosexuality a sin, and even give the hint of defending a church predator/rapist, that doesn’t go very well with me. I don’t know TidesofUntruth personally, but I’ve seen enough to call him out, especially after disingenuously altering my quote to his advantage. (Maybe he’s a closet Democrat.) 😆
 
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Can you point out the post where this was? I must have missed it.
If you’d like to look back at the dozens of posts he made on Schaap and Hyles, feel free. That was my impression, and regardless of those posts from months ago, he was pretty clear about his defense in this thread. You seem pretty sensitive about defending a guy who alters quotes and openly judges the salvation status of people he doesn’t even know. Any particular reason?
 
I think you guys are reading Tides wrong. Tides is not a friend or supporter of DH.
This is possibly true. If so, I apologize for not understanding his position. He needs to make his standing perfectly clear.
 
Quotes from Tides-of-Untruth - May 2022:
“I think we need to do a better job on defining our terms.
1. He was not convicted of pedophilia. He was convicted of taking a minor across state lines to violate that states laws concerning sex with minors. He violated the Mann Act. He did not commit pedophilia. I wish people would get this straight because as vile and wicked and blasphemous as he is pedophilia is a whole nother rung on hell's ladder and it is best to understand when one is a pedophile how much worse that is. Although Schapp is about as vile a person as there could be considering the blasphemies he used to justify himself.
2. He is a registered sex offender and that is a lifetime designation.

3. He will be on probation and supervison for 5 years once he is released.”

Subsequently, he was called out by Ransom and Aleshanee (I think) for trying to lessen the crime by mincing words.
 
Quotes from Tides-of-Untruth - May 2022:
“I think we need to do a better job on defining our terms.
1. He was not convicted of pedophilia. He was convicted of taking a minor across state lines to violate that states laws concerning sex with minors. He violated the Mann Act. He did not commit pedophilia. I wish people would get this straight because as vile and wicked and blasphemous as he is pedophilia is a whole nother rung on hell's ladder and it is best to understand when one is a pedophile how much worse that is. Although Schapp is about as vile a person as there could be considering the blasphemies he used to justify himself.
2. He is a registered sex offender and that is a lifetime designation.

3. He will be on probation and supervison for 5 years once he is released.”

Subsequently, he was called out by Ransom and Aleshanee (I think) for trying to lessen the crime by mincing words.
Look at the last sentence under point 1. That does not appear to be a defense of Schaap. It's a clarification.

As far as defending Tides, I'm not defending - just pointing out what looked to me to be a false accusation.
 
Look at the last sentence under point 1. That does not appear to be a defense of Schaap. It's a clarification.

As far as defending Tides, I'm not defending - just pointing out what looked to me to be a false accusation.
There were other posts that seemed to hedge in that direction in my opinion, but I’m not going to spend hours doing copy & paste of posts from months ago. BTW, publicly saying someone isn’t a Christian (who professes such), is also called a “false accusation.”
 
Look at the last sentence under point 1. That does not appear to be a defense of Schaap. It's a clarification.

As far as defending Tides, I'm not defending - just pointing out what looked to me to be a false accusation.
i disagree.... ...we have seen this kind of reaction from tidesoftruth before... he seems to only come out of the woodwork when schaap is mentioned to try and soften the language used on schaap.. (or clarify what he was officially accused of).... while simultaneously claiming he is not defending him....

and compared to the unwarranted - over the top attack tides of truth made on huk... calling him "doctrinally illiterate" over his comment on phil robertson.. ... what he said of schaap is definitely a defense.... ...

had it not been for that snap reaction on the part of tidesoftruth, i might have been willing to concede he was simply mincing words.. playing spin doctor... or attempting some kind of damage control on behalf of schaap.... .. ...but you know what?..... those are all defenses too......
 
I try not to judge other choices and convictions, but since you said they were man made rules, was it Hyles or John Rice who wrote: 1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given for a covering.

I try to get my standards from the bible and then my preferences are formed along the way. If they are my preference then they are my choice and I let other make their own choices. I try to make sure my standards are Bible based and in many cases the Bible seems to be very clear.

If you read the sermons from the 1700's and 1800's you will know preaching against things did not start with Hyles. Whether you think they are man made or not preachers have been preaching against things for generations. I remember reading that many preachers used to rail against riding bikes on Sunday in the late 1800's and early 1900's.
And if you read sermons from anytime between 1500 and 1800, you will hear stage actors condemned as ungodly and vulgar and sinful. But every single one of us goes to movies or rents them or watches them streaming. Does that mean that standards are culturally determined, or does it mean that we are just really really really really WORLDLY?

As for long hair, Like someone said, that is a misapplication of the verse.

Standards and personal opinions on matters of dress and hair have nothing to do with being worldly. As I said, 1 John 2 defines worldliness. We should stick to that.
 
and compared to the unwarranted - over the top attack tides of truth made on huk... calling him "doctrinally illiterate" over his comment on phil robertson.. ... what he said of schaap is definitely a defense.
Compared to many of you, I probably am “doctrinally illiterate.” That being said, I know right from wrong, and calling a professing Christian unsaved is wrong. I guarantee you Phil Robertson has more integrity in his pinky finger than Dave Hyles possesses in his whole body. Quite frankly, I’d rather blast to the forum that I’m friends with a law-abiding atheist than a man like Dave Hyles, who has multiple women accusing him of rape (even inside the church) and at least one who was a minor at the time. I know one thing, if I had grown up being great friends with Josh Duggar, hanging out at his house and whatnot, I’d never tell a soul, and I certainly wouldn’t go out of my way to soften the blows from people speaking the truth about him online or in person. 😎
 
Compared to many of you, I probably am “doctrinally illiterate.” That being said, I know right from wrong, and calling a professing Christian unsaved is wrong. I guarantee you Phil Robertson has more integrity in his pinky finger than Dave Hyles possesses in his whole body. Quite frankly, I’d rather blast to the forum that I’m friends with a law-abiding atheist than a man like Dave Hyles, who has multiple women accusing him of rape (even inside the church) and at least one who was a minor at the time. I know one thing, if I had grown up being great friends with Josh Duggar, hanging out at his house and whatnot, I’d never tell a soul, and I certainly wouldn’t go out of my way to soften the blows from people speaking the truth about him online or in person. 😎
Ok I started to write this post out one way but I am editing it and going to take a step back here. I apologize for calling you biblically illiterate. I get we all have different things that we study or have hang ups about. As for myself I really try to deal in doctrinal issues and I call them out online and in churches. I allowed pride to get the best of me. I am truly sorry for that. I do frequently point out the area of false doctrines and where I find people promoting false doctrines.

Many do not know that the Church of Christ preaches a false gospel. I have had many conversations for years with different pastors with many different sects of the Church of Christ including Campbellites and various break away sects. ALL of them state that water baptism is required for salvation (confusing the quickening/baptism of the spirit by the Holy Spirit for water) and it is the water that does the saving. Think of famous musical artist Carrie Underwood's song "something in the water" and you will hear a clear presentation of their gospel. And many in nashville starts attend or are associated with the Church of Christ. Baptism is an outward sign/work done in obedience of an inward change that was completed at salvation when one believes on Jesus Christ as their Saviour and only hope for heaven. Faith without works including baptism.

Now as for Schaap, I have tons of post calling out him and churches who do not practice church discipline. I have myriads of posts on here that started with my first post that was published in the Hammond Times about the situation. My concern about using the proper terminology (a pedophile is someone who has an attraction to prepubescent females) is just that. My point was he was not convicted of pedophilia, He was not convicted in Indiana of Sex with an underage person because She was legally of the age of Consent in Indiana so legally that charge wouldn't work. He was convicted federally of the Mann Act. That is because one of the states he committed his sin in had a law against sex with a minor and taking her across state lines then comes under the Federal Jurisdiction and the Mann Act was able to be used. This was strictly speaking as to his legal crimes not his moral perversion. This in no way softens his wickedness whatsoever. Adultery/fornication Defrauder of innocence, yes but to me worst of all was the blasphemous hijacking of God's authority and word to groom a young girl in his charge. Unfortunately this most heinous of wickedness has no legal penalty.

So you must have missed when at the time of conviction I wrote this.
I will repost for you here because you obviously missed it.

As Posted in the Times Comment Section 03/21/2013

I am a Member of the First Baptist Church of Hammond.
I am not an employee.
I am not a deacon.
I hold no official position.

I cannot speak on behalf of the church.

I have been a resident of Lake County for 48 years
I have been a member of First Baptist Church of Hammond for a total of 44 years.

I must apologize to the Northwest Indiana Community for the wickedness that was done by of our former pastor. I sincerely apologize and ask your forgiveness. I apologize for the scorn that it brings on the good people of our community. I apologize for the scorn it brings on our state and any of our leaders. I apologize for any scorn it brings on the city of Hammond. I apologize to the other believers and churches throughout the region and the difficulty and confusion that has been wrought on the message of the gospel of Christ through the hypocrisy that has been lived out in front of the public. And most importantly I apologize to this girl and the family of this girl. I have children. I know what I would have done had this happened to my daughter. I don't advise for your sake to do what I would have done but I know the anger I would have and I do not think I could have controlled myself in the admirable manner in which you have done.

There is not any excuse for sin, ever. I will not make an excuse for it and our church has made a formal statement making it clear that we reject Jack Schaap's excuse for it. There is never any excuse for the heinous wickedness and blasphemies done by our former pastor as reported by the prosecutor. It is the very opposite of everything we say we believe, teach and train our members and our young to be. Sins are not to be put on a scale against our supposed righteousness in which we are weighed to see if we can avoid the consequences of the wrong we did. How many homeless does one need to feed in order balance it out if we decide to kill one person we dislike? The Sentencing Memorandum written by Paul Stracci is the exact opposite of everything I have ever believed and been taught. The only good we do is credited to Jesus Christ and is His righteousness alone. Our sins are only forgiven because they were paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. And our civil crimes must bear the punishment that the public justice demands.

While there will always be individuals who may fail, the heartbeat of the everyday members of the church is to try to live as Christ would have us live. We live among you. We work with you. We pay our taxes and bills like you and while we believe to be fair and honest in all our dealings. We believe and teach marital fidelity and sexual purity but there will always be those who may not live up to what they say they believe. When we fail to live up to what we say we believe again I apologize. If we ever made you feel like we thought that somehow we were better or more righteous than anyone else, I apologize.

I appreciate the work of Judge Rudy Lozano and admire the work and honest and diligent response of the prosecutors United States Attorney David Capp and Assistant United States Attorney Jill Koster and their team. What fine and good public servants these people are. I believe these people should be praised as public servants meting out judgment for the good of our community and I praise their diligence and help to keep our community safe. Justice is a Godly act.

I apologize for the letters written on behalf of the defense that I can only believe were made out of a sense of past friendship but not having yet appreciated the full wickedness that was purported and the detail of deviancy that seemed out of character of what we heard from the lips of Jack Schaap. After further review of the details it makes it abundantly clear the full extent of the wickedness and the construction of a scheme to defraud a girl who was to be protected by those of us who portray ourselves with pure motivations and a desire to provide Godly guidance.

I cannot begin to express the gut wrenching sickness I felt as I read the prosecution report. It is not who I believe we are, what we teach and what we seek to be. Not because there is anything good within us but because we believe that we are to be people who follow Jesus Christ, claim His name, tell the good news of His saving grace through His shed blood and try to do good work on His behalf.

I love the people of First Baptist Church of Hammond. I have been taught how to live a Godly life by many good Teachers and Sunday School Teachers from the time I was very young. I have been taught by many good pastors who have lived Godly lives. I have been taught to be a good citizen, pay my bills on time, pray for our leaders and public servants and do good works in the community,. Never were we taught to use God as a ticket to commit sin. I have admired those who have reached out to the community and worked to help those in need. I hurt deeply for our people and I hurt deeply for Christ. I also hurt deeply for anyone who would use this as a reason to shun the God we believe in. This is not a representation of Who God is nor Who Jesus Christ is and I would beg you to not allow this to cause you to reject Jesus Christ and what He did for all of us that we might be saved from our sin.

I humbly apologize and beg your forgiveness.

Just a member.
 
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And this one more recently

CLA: Obey Man or God? The Sad Tragedy at Wildomar​




I was reading Kathy Durbin's Story on facebook as I was researching out her abuser Paul Fox. It is amazing to me the exact scenario I have been warning/hammering IFB leadership about played out in that scenario to a T - Lack of Church Discipline. It was absolutely shameful. The problem there is that Pastor Bruce Godard fell into the trap born out of fear (I believe) of what to do with a nasty sinful situation. In the early 90s, A Bus Director and School teacher in His ministry had groomed and seduced a 15 year old girl that had been his babysitter and got her to think that she was in love with him. She already being compromised from a broken home, imo made her more vulnerable. This allowed Paul to take advantage of Ms. Durbin and abuse her mentally and sexually. When Goddard got wind of this, instead of turning to his Bible and following scripture he sadly followed what all the previous generation Baptist Churches did and went to the LAWYER. Now I am not one to hate all Lawyers but when it comes to matters of faith they have done more to harm churches than they have to help because their advices is ALWAYS against God's word. The Bible gives a clear presentation of how things are to be handled and the written law gives us the civil responsibilities. CLA and their ilk have constantly gone against the Word of God in their advice multiple times. And they did in this incident. And because of that the consequences born out were devastating to many other girls, Goddard and their Church.

Paul Fox was not disciplined. He was sent packing and ended back in Hammond Indiana. He led a pretty quiet life there and there was never again an instance known from him. So while that is all well and good right. Here leadership thought that they could ship him off, His family was spared the humiliation. He continued to serve in his new church and he and his wife remained married. The church in Wildomar was spared the drama and CLA's Charlie Craze's advice was seen as heroic. According to Ms. Durbin: "My mom told him that the relationship did happen, thinking that maybe he didn’t believe that the relationship really happened. Charlie Craze explained it didn’t matter if it happened or not, that CLA didn’t represent laymen, only pastors and churches. He then proceeded to tell her that he would make me look like it was all my fault." Where is there anything biblical about that CLA? I have been told by very high ups in IFB who have gone through some of the most tortuous of these kind of incidence "That's how it was always was done" When a boy got a girl pregnant she went off to the unwed mother's home and the boy got sent away to the Military or a relative. When a pastor got in trouble in was hushed up and he was sent away for a while until it all blew over. But there is a God on the throne who is smarter than them all and He wrote the rules on church discipline for a reason and a purpose. And it became quite evident why.

Some nearly 30 years later there was a disturbance in Wildomar. This time many girls were coming forward about a youth pastor Victor Montero. The odd thing about this story is that Victor was Kathy Durbin's Bother-In-Law. For 18 years This pervert molested girls as young as 14 years old. 7 of them came forward and as the investigation ramped up. Pastor Goddard immediately went for the same method used before and Called the LAWYER, because it worked so well the last time. UNGODLY! The internet now was a thing and these molested girls all started comparing stories and this thing blew up to high heaven. No longer could CLA's Fear Filled Unbiblical advice could be followed and this thing turned into a train wreck.

All this time Kathy was cowered into believing none of what she experienced mattered and then suddenly, after one of Victor's victims contacted her, Kathy Durbin got her voice back once she realized: "Victor has used my story and the cover-up of my situation to keep multiple teen girls quiet about what he was doing to them. Victor told these girls my story and that nothing happened to Paul Fox. Pastor Goddard just moved Paul and his family away. It was the teenage girl that stayed and suffered."

THIS IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THE BIBLE HAD BEEN OBEYED!

While the Bible clearly lays out the prescription for all this It also explains why:
I Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Victor never saw the church take Paul Fox's sin Seriously and He never feared for his own piety.
That is 7 Girls Molested CLA and a church again put in turmoil because of your unbiblical UNGODLY "Advice"! These women will have this follow them all their life and it will affect their relationships with their spouses and their children on into many generations.
When speaking of sin and Church Discipline , the Apostle Paul was clear. it must be purged.
1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Sadly now Paul Fox and His wife are divorced, Their kids are devastated, Paul is finishing out his term in jail.
Victor has finished out his term in jail.
The Church in Wildomar has been stained in front of the world,
Pastor Goddard ruined his reputation.
And worst of all the Cause of Christ was tarnished.
So how did that work out for you? Was anybody saved by following CLA's advice in 1992?
So CLA Who is Right? You or God? They have a lot of explaining to do and so do the pastors who turn to them for their advice above the Word of God.
My only hope is that IFB Churches would now hear the end of this tragedy and would ALWAYS obey God rather than Man.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Every man a liar yes but ESPECIALLY LAWYERS!
 
Just understand this is not the gospel



Sorry This is HERESY
 
Just understand this is not the gospel



Sorry This is HERESY
I live here in the land where the Church of Christ originated. They do have a different interpretation of the role of baptism. It's not the orthodox position, but I would not go as far as to say it's heretical. I don't have to agree with them, and I don't. I never will, but, there ARE passages that say to be saved and baptized for the remission of sin. I believe they're incorrectly used...their hermeneutics are atrocious...and I will debate with them on the subject, but, ultimately, they won't change my mind and I won't change theirs. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.
 
Baptismal regeneration, whether the Church of Christ variety or the sacerdotal Roman kind is anathema to Sola Gratia. I like Phil, and respect his moral character as well as convictional stands against Hollywood, but draw the line in the sand over my alignment with him theologically on the claim for necessity to be baptized in order to complete salvation. In addition I have nothing good to say about pedophilia, (il)legalities regarding seducing minors, or Jack Schaap.
 
Ok I started to write this post out one way but I am editing it and going to take a step back here. I apologize for calling you biblically illiterate. I get we all have different things that we study or have hang ups about. As for myself I really try to deal in doctrinal issues and I call them out online and in churches. I allowed pride to get the best of me. I am truly sorry for that. I do frequently point out the area of false doctrines and where I find people promoting false doctrines.
I appreciate the apology, clarification, and insight on some of your previous posts/newspapers letter. I wasn’t on the forum back then, and, admittedly, I didn’t search too far back in your posting history.

Before coming on this forum, I knew nothing about Hyles-Anderson, Schaap, Hyles, that church…I’ll be honest, I’m not even sure if I had heard of the city of Hammond. Now, all that being said, I still grew up in a “Fundy” church, though I’d say we were more strongly affiliated with Bob Jones University, loosely affiliated with Pensacola Christian and Clearwater Christian, and to a much lesser extent, Tennessee Temple and Liberty University. I didn’t attend any of the Christian colleges and instead went to a state university (or as Alayman calls them, SatanU…lol), so I don’t have much perspective to add on those.

I didn’t attend any churches with leadership involved in blatant immoral or, especially, illegal sexual activities. I do know there were some activities of others in the church that were probably not handled correctly/legally. I know of some cases where people probably should have been reported to law enforcement or whatnot, and were probably dealt with internally and no real accountability took place. I couldn’t swear in court to these because most was hearsay and second or third-hand information. Also, since I was a younger child or teenager when hearing of some of these stories, it’s possible I might have misinterpreted or misunderstood some of what I overheard. That being said, where there’s smoke there’s fire, and when one hears enough of these stories, odds are, there’s probably some merit to at least one or two of these accounts.

We’re all sinners, including those sitting in church pews. I can recall my favorite childhood Sunday school teacher suddenly not being at church one Sunday, and then never seeing him again. I can’t recall exactly, but I was around 11 or 12 years old, perhaps 13. I found out a little while afterwards that he was apparently a drug addict and had been unfaithful to his wife for some time, and I believe he got arrested for picking up a hooker and having cocaine on him. As a young boy, I was pretty devastated. This guy was a former college football quarterback, and just a “cool guy.” He was different than the other men at church, I thought…yeah, he was different alright. It was probably my first time of viewing a Christian as a hypocrite. Thankfully this story only involved a Sunday school teacher and not a pastor, but for a little guy in church, it was just as devastating. I’m sure it must be difficult, painful, and probably embarrassing to have been a member and friends with those men in the church you attended, and I can only imagine having my kids sitting under their tutelage every week and then having them see what their true selves turned out to be.
 
Just understand this is not the gospel

Sorry This is HERESY
I don’t want to nitpick over Phil Robertson. Frankly, I don’t know much about his theological and philosophical viewpoints. My admiration for Phil was originally as a guy who likes duck hunting; later it became about his stand against Hollywood and his refusal to bend his biblical viewpoint on homosexuality, even though it meant getting his show canceled and losing millions in revenue and also advertisers/endorsements. I will say, after watching the video you linked, the guy doing the commentary ends by saying he’s not exactly sure where Phil stands on the baptism issue. He essentially starts out by condemning him, but then later pivots to a more I’m-not-sure stand. I’d also add that based on Phil’s own recent quote regarding baptism and Present Trump, I don’t see his reasoning being that baptism is required for salvation: (https://www.themix.net/2020/08/why-...ing-people-by-the-thousands-in-louisiana/amp/)

Robertson added that he and Trump have spoken on the phone since then, but the president has admitted to him that he has yet to be baptized.

“The last time I saw him, I gave him some verses on the new birth, being baptized and what it means,” Robertson said. “And I’m convinced he’s put his faith in Jesus and I’m convinced he’s a brother.”
 
I am not making any judgments as to whether or not Phil Robertson or Church of Christ folk are saved. I hope they are. But it is a well-known principle among the Churches of Christ that the process of salvation involves mental assent to the basic truth of the Gospel (no emphasis on repentance), and then water baptism which must be administered by an authorized Church of Christ minister. The salvation process is not complete until you have been baptized. In my opinion, that is heresy. (Since the only water baptism Alexander Campbell ever received was administered by a Baptist preacher, then in theory, Churches of Christ founder Alexander Campbell, according to Church of Christ principles, is now in hell. But again, I'm not making any judgments).

When I worked in the factory in Colfax, Illinois, one of my buddies was related to the Church of Christ minister and his family in nearby Cooksville. They were my friends, and very nice folks. I sometimes had friendly debates with my buddy - one time I asked him, "What if you get saved out in the desert?" He said, "Better start digging for water" and we both laughed. Campbellites believe you are not saved until you have been water baptized. With all respect to all the good, decent, sincere people in the Campbellite movement, I don't believe that is the true gospel. (I also asked my buddy, what about the thief on the cross who was not baptized. His answer was, that was a different dispensation, baptism was not yet required for salvation at that time, but it is, now).

As for TidesofTruth's negative evaluation of Christian Law Association, I totally agree. We have covered this on other FFF threads, and it is clear that CLA is not an organization worthy of support or credence from fundamentalist Christians. For instance, there are these comments from the Recovering Grace web site:

"The {Institute in Basic Life Principles] board’s investigation was spearheaded by Dr. David Gibbs, Jr., of the Christian Law Association (not to be confused with the more prominent Christian Legal Society). It has been well-documented on other websites that Gibbs Jr. and his team have historically been on the wrong side of abuse cases. In fact, David Gibbs III, the son of Gibbs Jr., recently asserted in an official statement that his father’s legal work “helps cover for alleged and/or eventually convicted abusers, or the churches or ministries they work for.” Gibbs Jr.’s historic role is not that of impartial investigator, but of an attorney engaged by churches to minimize their organizational liability in cases of misconduct and abuse."


Which Gibbs - Father or SonWhich Gibbs - Father or Son


 
I am not making any judgments as to whether or not Phil Robertson or Church of Christ folk are saved. I hope they are. But it is a well-known principle among the Churches of Christ that the process of salvation involves mental assent to the basic truth of the Gospel (no emphasis on repentance), and then water baptism which must be administered by an authorized Church of Christ minister. The salvation process is not complete until you have been baptized. In my opinion, that is heresy. (Since the only water baptism Alexander Campbell ever received was administered by a Baptist preacher, then in theory, Churches of Christ founder Alexander Campbell, according to Church of Christ principles, is now in hell. But again, I'm not making any judgments).

When I worked in the factory in Colfax, Illinois, one of my buddies was related to the Church of Christ minister and his family in nearby Cooksville. They were my friends, and very nice folks. I sometimes had friendly debates with my buddy - one time I asked him, "What if you get saved out in the desert?" He said, "Better start digging for water" and we both laughed. Campbellites believe you are not saved until you have been water baptized. With all respect to all the good, decent, sincere people in the Campbellite movement, I don't believe that is the true gospel. (I also asked my buddy, what about the thief on the cross who was not baptized. His answer was, that was a different dispensation, baptism was not yet required for salvation at that time, but it is, now).

As for TidesofTruth's negative evaluation of Christian Law Association, I totally agree. We have covered this on other FFF threads, and it is clear that CLA is not an organization worthy of support or credence from fundamentalist Christians. For instance, there are these comments from the Recovering Grace web site:

"The {Institute in Basic Life Principles] board’s investigation was spearheaded by Dr. David Gibbs, Jr., of the Christian Law Association (not to be confused with the more prominent Christian Legal Society). It has been well-documented on other websites that Gibbs Jr. and his team have historically been on the wrong side of abuse cases. In fact, David Gibbs III, the son of Gibbs Jr., recently asserted in an official statement that his father’s legal work “helps cover for alleged and/or eventually convicted abusers, or the churches or ministries they work for.” Gibbs Jr.’s historic role is not that of impartial investigator, but of an attorney engaged by churches to minimize their organizational liability in cases of misconduct and abuse."


Which Gibbs - Father or SonWhich Gibbs - Father or Son


I think it’s a difficult tightrope to walk between every American citizen being entitled to due process in court and, on the other hand, being a non-profit legal cover for preachers gone wild.
 
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