help me out ladies and gentlemen.........

[Bo]

im new to the forum as most of you know but...im starting to see who the big players are...(the people whos names you will see popping up a lot throughout the threads)  and Im a new Christian...I have been in a Baptist church my whole life and have believed my whole life...but as far as being saved and studying and having a strong hunger for knowledge (as I do now) it is only been a few years.    now to my question.....

I want to be a better contributor to the conversations....so I would like help on knowing what theological libertarianism and calvanists....and political libertarianism....and legalist.....

im seeing these terms pop up everywhere but I do not have a good understanding of them..........help??

 

[FSSL]

Good question and glad to see you around.

I am posting on my phone, so perhaps someone else at their keyboard, who cannot sleep, will give some quality answers

 

[Bo]

the different labels can be confusing for certain...... i have been on the various fundamentalist forums for over eleven years...... and i still get confused sometimes when certain posters try to explain their positions through the use of various labels but little else ..........i was on the old forum for a couple of years being constantly told i was a semi-pelagian heretic before i finally looked it up in a book to see what it meant..........

in short...... there is no short way to answer your question....... except to say that with regards to calvinism vrs arminianism the differences are in how much control God exercises over the life of the believer vrs how much free will He allows to have for ourselves............ beyond that..... without writing another novel or term paper..... all i can tell you is the questions you have touched on have historically served as the catalyst for some of the biggest and most divisive arguments the fundamental forums have always had....... not to mention one very bloody civil war in england with a few hangings and at least one famous burning at the stake..........

i hate to say just look it up through google..... but honestly... it might be the best way to get the most accurate information on what officially serves as a platform for each of these various doctrines ... plus you will get some good history behind each one to go along............. you should probably do that anyway even in addition to reading what others will tell you here........... there is conflict often even among those who are suppose to agree.......  8)

thank you!  and I will do that.  would the famous burning at the steak you are referring to be a man by the name of John Hus?

also...on the amount or control God exercises over us.....I believe it is none.  In the sense that I believe He gave us 100% free will to let us choose our actions and words.  I believe He gave us His word to guide us and to show us how we should choose our actions and words.  I believe that what he does control is the consequences of our actions as to bless us in this world or to take away from us in this world according to our actions....or to give us more time in this world or less time in this world also according to our actions.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Bo]also...on the amount or control God exercises over us.....I believe it is none.[/quote]

You can fly and time travel? You speak every language ever spoken by mankind?

 

[Bo]

[quote author=Bo]also...on the amount or control God exercises over us.....I believe it is none.

You can fly and time travel? You speak every language ever spoken by mankind?
[/quote]
ok....let me specify....

I don't believe that God controls our decision making......of course He has made His creation with certain physical laws and limitations....

but He does not take control over our will.....the choices we make in the world that He has created for us......

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

ok....let me specify....

I don't believe that God controls our decision making......of course He has made His creation with certain physical laws and limitations....

but He does not take control over our will.....the choices we make in the world that He has created for us......

So that puts you in the "I don't believe the Bible" camp. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Bo]also...on the amount or control God exercises over us.....I believe it is none.

You can fly and time travel? You speak every language ever spoken by mankind?

ok....let me specify....

I don't believe that God controls our decision making......of course He has made His creation with certain physical laws and limitations....

but He does not take control over our will.....the choices we make in the world that He has created for us......[/quote]

Your physical limitations are part of your decision making process. Your time and place of existence are part of that process. Your genetic makeup is part of that process. Past events (or "consequences of our actions" that you have already said come from God) are part of that process. I could go on and on and on and on.

 

[Recovering IFB]

[quote author=Bo]also...on the amount or control God exercises over us.....I believe it is none.

You can fly and time travel? You speak every language ever spoken by mankind?

ok....let me specify....

I don't believe that God controls our decision making......of course He has made His creation with certain physical laws and limitations....

but He does not take control over our will.....the choices we make in the world that He has created for us......
[/quote]
So, you're an Open Theist?

 

[Bo]

[quote author=Bo]also...on the amount or control God exercises over us.....I believe it is none.

You can fly and time travel? You speak every language ever spoken by mankind?

ok....let me specify....

I don't believe that God controls our decision making......of course He has made His creation with certain physical laws and limitations....

but He does not take control over our will.....the choices we make in the world that He has created for us......

Your physical limitations are part of your decision making process. Your time and place of existence are part of that process. Your genetic makeup is part of that process. Past events (or "consequences of our actions" that you have already said come from God) are part of that process. I could go on and on and on and on.
[/quote]

yes....you could go on and on and on....but it would still sound just as ridiculous and not make any sense

God made this world with set laws and limitations that are beyond our choice....maybe....we aint stopped learning and developing...so maybe He didn't make as many limitations as we thank.  But any way...the limitations that were made were beyond our choice. So they have nothing to do with Choice...they are the way it is.

God created us with free will to live within the creation. 

The decisions we make within the creation and its physical laws are 100% ours....if it were not so.......

then why would we have salvation?  there would be no need for it

why would there be commandments?  there would be no need for them

why would we have a list of sins and abominations?  there would be no need for us to know them

He controlled the creation and the science of how it works.  But the decision making and actions and words we choose to use and the morality of them He has left COMPLETELY up to us......

making all the above things relevent

 

[Izdaari]

Political libertarianism is my political philosophy. It basically means that individual liberty is my highest political value. 

Libertarians believe in the Non-Aggression Principle (or NAP). That is, it's wrong to initiate physical force or the threat of it against another, though the use of it in retaliation is acceptable. 

Libertarians may be minarchists (advocates of minimal government) or anarchists (advocates of no government, but not chaos, rather of alternative non-governmental means of maintaining order). Since I believe in the smallest possible government, I'm a minarchist. I would be an anarchist if I were convinced it would actually work.

I am a member of the Libertarian Party and support its platform, but not all libertarians do. I voted for its nominee, Gary Johnson in 2012. I'm supporting Rand Paul in the Republican primaries, and will vote for him in the general election too if he's nominated. He's not fully libertarian, but close enough for me. But if he doesn't make it, I'll probbably vote LP again.l

I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.

I think the others have covered philosophical or theological libertarianism well enough. That's the question of how much free will humans have. It's a totally different concept, basically coincidental that the terms are similar.

 

[Bo]

Political libertarianism is my political philosophy. It basically means that individual liberty is my highest political value. 

Libertarians believe in the Non-Aggression Principle (or NAP). That is, it's wrong to initiate physical force or the threat of it against another, though the use of it in retaliation is acceptable. 

Libertarians may be minarchists (advocates of minimal government) or anarchists (advocates of no government, but not chaos, rather of alternative non-governmental means of maintaining order). Since I believe in the smallest possible government, I'm a minarchist. I would be an anarchist if I were convinced it would actually work.

I am a member of the Libertarian Party and support its platform, but not all libertarians do.

I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.

I think the others have covered theological libertarianism well enough. It's a totally different concept, basically coincidental that the terms are similar.

I agree with the aspect of little government.....actually none...BUT ONLY under the circumstances that everyone lived biblically and were free of sin.....100% of the population of the earth....then we wouldn't need any kind of government or law enforcement or anything....but the very fact that God saw fit to give us His word shows that this is impossible....so with the fact that we are by nature evil....all men....."there is none good....no not one"  I see the need for a God fearing, bible believing and 100% only Christian government.  That (though it cannot possibly be perfect) tried to do the best it could to govern a nation according to scriptural morals and standards.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Bo]also...on the amount or control God exercises over us.....I believe it is none.

You can fly and time travel? You speak every language ever spoken by mankind?

ok....let me specify....

I don't believe that God controls our decision making......of course He has made His creation with certain physical laws and limitations....

but He does not take control over our will.....the choices we make in the world that He has created for us......

Your physical limitations are part of your decision making process. Your time and place of existence are part of that process. Your genetic makeup is part of that process. Past events (or "consequences of our actions" that you have already said come from God) are part of that process. I could go on and on and on and on.

yes....you could go on and on and on....but it would still sound just as ridiculous and not make any sense

God made this world with set laws and limitations that are beyond our choice....maybe....we aint stopped learning and developing...so maybe He didn't make as many limitations as we thank.  But any way...the limitations that were made were beyond our choice. So they have nothing to do with Choice...they are the way it is.

God created us with free will to live within the creation. 

The decisions we make within the creation and its physical laws are 100% ours....if it were not so.......[/quote]

That isn't even the argument. The argument is why you make those decisions.

then why would we have salvation?  there would be no need for it

why would there be commandments?  there would be no need for them

why would we have a list of sins and abominations?  there would be no need for us to know them

Or those things mean a lot more than the little box you fit them in.

He controlled the creation and the science of how it works.  But the decision making and actions and words we choose to use and the morality of them He has left COMPLETELY up to us......

making all the above things relevent

Tell that to Pharaoh. Tell that to Joseph. Tell that to Mary. Tell that to Jesus. Tell that to....

 

[Izdaari]

Political libertarianism is my political philosophy. It basically means that individual liberty is my highest political value. 

Libertarians believe in the Non-Aggression Principle (or NAP). That is, it's wrong to initiate physical force or the threat of it against another, though the use of it in retaliation is acceptable. 

Libertarians may be minarchists (advocates of minimal government) or anarchists (advocates of no government, but not chaos, rather of alternative non-governmental means of maintaining order). Since I believe in the smallest possible government, I'm a minarchist. I would be an anarchist if I were convinced it would actually work.

I am a member of the Libertarian Party and support its platform, but not all libertarians do.

I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.

I think the others have covered theological libertarianism well enough. It's a totally different concept, basically coincidental that the terms are similar.

I agree with the aspect of little government.....actually none...BUT ONLY under the circumstances that everyone lived biblically and were free of sin.....100% of the population of the earth....then we wouldn't need any kind of government or law enforcement or anything....but the very fact that God saw fit to give us His word shows that this is impossible....so with the fact that we are by nature evil....all men....."there is none good....no not one"  I see the need for a God fearing, bible believing and 100% only Christian government.  That (though it cannot possibly be perfect) tried to do the best it could to govern a nation according to scriptural morals and standards.

If men are too evil to govern themselves, how can they ever be fit to govern others? That's the dilemma America's Founders faced, and why they came up with a limited constitutional republic, with checks and balances to limit the harm evil rulers could do.  And they strictly forbade any government establishment of an official religion, and any religious tests for public office. They were wise to do so.

 

[Bo]

[quote author=Bo]also...on the amount or control God exercises over us.....I believe it is none.

You can fly and time travel? You speak every language ever spoken by mankind?

ok....let me specify....

I don't believe that God controls our decision making......of course He has made His creation with certain physical laws and limitations....

but He does not take control over our will.....the choices we make in the world that He has created for us......

Your physical limitations are part of your decision making process. Your time and place of existence are part of that process. Your genetic makeup is part of that process. Past events (or "consequences of our actions" that you have already said come from God) are part of that process. I could go on and on and on and on.

yes....you could go on and on and on....but it would still sound just as ridiculous and not make any sense

God made this world with set laws and limitations that are beyond our choice....maybe....we aint stopped learning and developing...so maybe He didn't make as many limitations as we thank.  But any way...the limitations that were made were beyond our choice. So they have nothing to do with Choice...they are the way it is.

God created us with free will to live within the creation. 

The decisions we make within the creation and its physical laws are 100% ours....if it were not so.......

That isn't even the argument. The argument is why you make those decisions.

then why would we have salvation?  there would be no need for it

why would there be commandments?  there would be no need for them

why would we have a list of sins and abominations?  there would be no need for us to know them

Or those things mean a lot more than the little box you fit them in.

He controlled the creation and the science of how it works.  But the decision making and actions and words we choose to use and the morality of them He has left COMPLETELY up to us......

making all the above things relevent

Tell that to Pharaoh. Tell that to Joseph. Tell that to Mary. Tell that to Jesus. Tell that to....
[/quote]
Yea....tell that to pharoaoh.....and Joseph...and Mary....and Jesus

you just proved my point......

God didn't force that on Pharoaoh....PHAROAOH chose to be a heathen and evil...and the consequences were what happened to him.....

Joseph and Mary CHOSE to be upstanding people and devoted to God....that's why God blessed them with being the earthly caretakers of His son/ Himself

and Jesus is God....and God can do what He wonts to....so no point there neither...

you are telling me to use the consequences of actions as the reason to say they had no choice in the matter...


joseph and mary could have just walked away and left Jesus in the manger but the didn't...they CHOSE to stay....

Pharoaho could have decided to let them go...and not give chase when Moses led them out...but he didn't...he CHOSE to chase them into the red sea....(which was dumb in my opinion cause he HAD to know it was not gonna work out)  and God CHOSE to make Himself human to save us....

come on rsc2a.....you are gonna have to do ALOT better than that.......

I know ya got it in ya

 

[Bo]

Political libertarianism is my political philosophy. It basically means that individual liberty is my highest political value. 

Libertarians believe in the Non-Aggression Principle (or NAP). That is, it's wrong to initiate physical force or the threat of it against another, though the use of it in retaliation is acceptable. 

Libertarians may be minarchists (advocates of minimal government) or anarchists (advocates of no government, but not chaos, rather of alternative non-governmental means of maintaining order). Since I believe in the smallest possible government, I'm a minarchist. I would be an anarchist if I were convinced it would actually work.

I am a member of the Libertarian Party and support its platform, but not all libertarians do.

I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.

I think the others have covered theological libertarianism well enough. It's a totally different concept, basically coincidental that the terms are similar.

I agree with the aspect of little government.....actually none...BUT ONLY under the circumstances that everyone lived biblically and were free of sin.....100% of the population of the earth....then we wouldn't need any kind of government or law enforcement or anything....but the very fact that God saw fit to give us His word shows that this is impossible....so with the fact that we are by nature evil....all men....."there is none good....no not one"  I see the need for a God fearing, bible believing and 100% only Christian government.  That (though it cannot possibly be perfect) tried to do the best it could to govern a nation according to scriptural morals and standards.

If men are too evil to govern themselves, how can they ever be fit to govern others? That's the dilemma America's Founders faced, and why they came up with a limited constitutional republic, with checks and balances to limit the harm evil rulers could do.  And they strictly forbade any government establishment of an official religion, and any religious tests for public office. They were wise to do so.

that was the start of the downfall....when you try to govern without 100% Christian morality.....but it has to be....we are not perfect

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Bo]also...on the amount or control God exercises over us.....I believe it is none.

You can fly and time travel? You speak every language ever spoken by mankind?

ok....let me specify....

I don't believe that God controls our decision making......of course He has made His creation with certain physical laws and limitations....

but He does not take control over our will.....the choices we make in the world that He has created for us......

Your physical limitations are part of your decision making process. Your time and place of existence are part of that process. Your genetic makeup is part of that process. Past events (or "consequences of our actions" that you have already said come from God) are part of that process. I could go on and on and on and on.

yes....you could go on and on and on....but it would still sound just as ridiculous and not make any sense

God made this world with set laws and limitations that are beyond our choice....maybe....we aint stopped learning and developing...so maybe He didn't make as many limitations as we thank.  But any way...the limitations that were made were beyond our choice. So they have nothing to do with Choice...they are the way it is.

God created us with free will to live within the creation. 

The decisions we make within the creation and its physical laws are 100% ours....if it were not so.......

That isn't even the argument. The argument is why you make those decisions.

then why would we have salvation?  there would be no need for it

why would there be commandments?  there would be no need for them

why would we have a list of sins and abominations?  there would be no need for us to know them

Or those things mean a lot more than the little box you fit them in.

He controlled the creation and the science of how it works.  But the decision making and actions and words we choose to use and the morality of them He has left COMPLETELY up to us......

making all the above things relevent

Tell that to Pharaoh. Tell that to Joseph. Tell that to Mary. Tell that to Jesus. Tell that to....

Yea....tell that to pharoaoh.....and Joseph...and Mary....and Jesus

you just proved my point......

God didn't force that on Pharoaoh....PHAROAOH chose to be a heathen and evil...and the consequences were what happened to him.....

Joseph and Mary CHOSE to be upstanding people and devoted to God....that's why God blessed them with being the earthly caretakers of His son/ Himself

and Jesus is God....and God can do what He wonts to....so no point there neither...

you are telling me to use the consequences of actions as the reason to say they had no choice in the matter...


joseph and mary could have just walked away and left Jesus in the manger but the didn't...they CHOSE to stay....

Pharoaho could have decided to let them go...and not give chase when Moses led them out...but he didn't...he CHOSE to chase them into the red sea....(which was dumb in my opinion cause he HAD to know it was not gonna work out)  and God CHOSE to make Himself human to save us....

come on rsc2a.....you are gonna have to do ALOT better than that.......

I know ya got it in ya[/quote]

Joseph - "What you meant for evil, God meant for good."
Mary - "You are going to be a virgin mother."
Jesus - "The Christ whom you crucified..."

and the most obvious one...

Pharaoh - "I will harden Pharaoh's heart." <~~ God speaking



Actually, forget it...you don't even understand the basic argument.

We'll start simple...give me one example of any decision you have ever made that was not influenced by experience, physical ability, time, location, personal tastes, resources, the actions of others, or any other thing other than "I decide this".  (Actually, scratch that...if the only reason you randomly decide something is to prove that you can, your motive for the "random" decision is also based on outside factors.)

 

[Bo]

[quote author=Bo]also...on the amount or control God exercises over us.....I believe it is none.

You can fly and time travel? You speak every language ever spoken by mankind?

ok....let me specify....

I don't believe that God controls our decision making......of course He has made His creation with certain physical laws and limitations....

but He does not take control over our will.....the choices we make in the world that He has created for us......

Your physical limitations are part of your decision making process. Your time and place of existence are part of that process. Your genetic makeup is part of that process. Past events (or "consequences of our actions" that you have already said come from God) are part of that process. I could go on and on and on and on.

yes....you could go on and on and on....but it would still sound just as ridiculous and not make any sense

God made this world with set laws and limitations that are beyond our choice....maybe....we aint stopped learning and developing...so maybe He didn't make as many limitations as we thank.  But any way...the limitations that were made were beyond our choice. So they have nothing to do with Choice...they are the way it is.

God created us with free will to live within the creation. 

The decisions we make within the creation and its physical laws are 100% ours....if it were not so.......

That isn't even the argument. The argument is why you make those decisions.

then why would we have salvation?  there would be no need for it

why would there be commandments?  there would be no need for them

why would we have a list of sins and abominations?  there would be no need for us to know them

Or those things mean a lot more than the little box you fit them in.

He controlled the creation and the science of how it works.  But the decision making and actions and words we choose to use and the morality of them He has left COMPLETELY up to us......

making all the above things relevent

Tell that to Pharaoh. Tell that to Joseph. Tell that to Mary. Tell that to Jesus. Tell that to....

Yea....tell that to pharoaoh.....and Joseph...and Mary....and Jesus

you just proved my point......

God didn't force that on Pharoaoh....PHAROAOH chose to be a heathen and evil...and the consequences were what happened to him.....

Joseph and Mary CHOSE to be upstanding people and devoted to God....that's why God blessed them with being the earthly caretakers of His son/ Himself

and Jesus is God....and God can do what He wonts to....so no point there neither...

you are telling me to use the consequences of actions as the reason to say they had no choice in the matter...


joseph and mary could have just walked away and left Jesus in the manger but the didn't...they CHOSE to stay....

Pharoaho could have decided to let them go...and not give chase when Moses led them out...but he didn't...he CHOSE to chase them into the red sea....(which was dumb in my opinion cause he HAD to know it was not gonna work out)  and God CHOSE to make Himself human to save us....

come on rsc2a.....you are gonna have to do ALOT better than that.......

I know ya got it in ya

Joseph - "What you meant for evil, God meant for good."
Mary - "You are going to be a virgin mother."
Jesus - "The Christ whom you crucified..."

and the most obvious one...

Pharaoh - "I will harden Pharaoh's heart." <~~ God speaking



Actually, forget it...you don't even understand the basic argument.

We'll start simple...give me one example of any decision you have ever made that was not influenced by experience, physical ability, time, location, personal tastes, resources, the actions of others, or any other thing other than "I decide this".  (Actually, scratch that...if the only reason you randomly decide something is to prove that you can, your motive for the "random" decision is also based on outside factors.)
[/quote]

haha...your reaching now my friend.....

and I don't believe ur arms are long enuff

 

[Izdaari]

that was the start of the downfall....when you try to govern without 100% Christian morality.....but it has to be....we are not perfect

Whose Christian morality? My "emergent" Episcopalian Anglo-Catholic morality, or Independent Fundamental Baptist morality? Catholic morality? Or some other version?

In the worst (and I would say probable) case what you'll wind up with will be something much worse than liberal democracy. It would likely become the Christian equivalent of ISIS.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]Actually, forget it...you don't even understand the basic argument.

We'll start simple...give me one example of any decision you have ever made that was not influenced by experience, physical ability, time, location, personal tastes, resources, the actions of others, or any other thing other than "I decide this".  (Actually, scratch that...if the only reason you randomly decide something is to prove that you can, your motive for the "random" decision is also based on outside factors.)

haha...your reaching now my friend.....

and I don't believe ur arms are long enuff[/quote]

If I'm reaching so badly, you should easily be able to provide me just one example.

 

[Recovering IFB]

i already warned him in a pm several minutes ago that calvinists can be extremely rude.. sarcastic and snarky when explaining calvinism to someone not will willing to accept all aspects of what they say......... they don;t actually try to teach you anything.... just spin you in circles......... ... but i couldn;t have imagined you would jump in and prove my point so fast.... ......... actually i did have a suspicion......... we have been through this before.....  :

 
as to some of the Arminians on here as well, do you call them out as well?