help me out ladies and gentlemen.........

[The Rogue Tomato]

i already warned him in a pm several minutes ago that calvinists can be extremely rude.. sarcastic and snarky when explaining calvinism to someone not will willing to accept all aspects of what they say......... they don;t actually try to teach you anything.... just spin you in circles......... ... but i couldn;t have imagined you would jump in and prove my point so fast.... ......... actually i did have a suspicion......... we have been through this before.....  :

 
as to some of the Arminians on here as well, do you call them out as well?

I'm happy to oblige.  The Bible is filled with scripture saying God directs our will.  I have yet to find the verse that says God is a gentleman who never intrudes upon our will. 

 

[FreeToBeMe]

Whose Christian morality? My "emergent" Episcopalian Anglo-Catholic morality, or Independent Fundamental Baptist morality? Catholic morality? Or some other version?

In the worst (and I would say probable) case what you'll wind up with will be something much worse than liberal democracy. It would likely become the Christian equivalent of ISIS.

Indeed.  Sounds to me like Bo is calling for a theocracy......and there's more than a few fundies and evangelicals who would just love to usher in Old Testament law. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Two things:

I'll tell you a quick story that might help you bo.  When I first got energized for the Lord (after a lonnnnnnng period of lukewarm Christian experience the followed my conversion) it was largely due to a young Independent Fundamental Baptist preacher who I still greatly love in the Lord but no longer have the joy of being around.  He imparted a zeal for the Bible and souls to me.  My life began to change.  I unfortunately fell for the ultra-conservative (at times extra-Biblical) rule-keeping element of his and some other IFBs teaching (though he was not of the radical strain like Hyles, Gray, etc).  That trajectory eventually was re-corrected and I began to see that the power to the Christian life (sanctification) was not in the keeping of God's laws, but in Christ Himself, via faith.  When you hear many of the Freebirds on here railing against Baptists it is because of their similar experience.

Secondly, as my early zeal took hold and I gobbled up everything IFBs told me, I kept hearing about Calvinism and its evils.  My (then) pastor told me that when I read people like Spurgeon that he was evangelistic, and not a Calvinist (as claimed by many Calvinists on the FFF).  To keep this post short I'll get to the chase and tell you that there is much dis-information (though often well meaning) put out by IFBs desiring to protect their sheep. 

I tell you this so that you will keep an open mind, study original sources for yourself, and come to a conclusion based on a well reasoned and researched study of a matter.  Read both sides of an argument before making up your mind, and in the meantime, welcome aboard the FFF.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

My (then) pastor told me that when I read people like Spurgeon that he was evangelistic, and not a Calvinist (as claimed by many Calvinists on the FFF). 

?I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines, that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are surely and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus.? ?Charles Spurgeon

 

[praise_yeshua]

i already warned him in a pm several minutes ago that calvinists can be extremely rude.. sarcastic and snarky when explaining calvinism to someone not will willing to accept all aspects of what they say......... they don;t actually try to teach you anything.... just spin you in circles......... ... but i couldn;t have imagined you would jump in and prove my point so fast.... ......... actually i did have a suspicion......... we have been through this before.....  :

 
as to some of the Arminians on here as well, do you call them out as well?

I'm happy to oblige.  The Bible is filled with scripture saying God directs our will.  I have yet to find the verse that says God is a gentleman who never intrudes upon our will.

We know perfectly what God's will is concerning mankind. Perfectly. We find it perfectly in the Scriptures.

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You Calvinists just refuse to believe the Scriptures. Calvin was young man that should have kept his mouth shut till he learned a few things from the Scriptures. A novice. Immature in the faith. He was just like many people in the world. You publish something and THEN you can NEVER admit you're wrong.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Two things:

I'll tell you a quick story that might help you bo.  When I first got energized for the Lord (after a lonnnnnnng period of lukewarm Christian experience the followed my conversion) it was largely due to a young Independent Fundamental Baptist preacher who I still greatly love in the Lord but no longer have the joy of being around.  He imparted a zeal for the Bible and souls to me.  My life began to change.  I unfortunately fell for the ultra-conservative (at times extra-Biblical) rule-keeping element of his and some other IFBs teaching (though he was not of the radical strain like Hyles, Gray, etc).  That trajectory eventually was re-corrected and I began to see that the power to the Christian life (sanctification) was not in the keeping of God's laws, but in Christ Himself, via faith.  When you hear many of the Freebirds on here railing against Baptists it is because of their similar experience.

Secondly, as my early zeal took hold and I gobbled up everything IFBs told me, I kept hearing about Calvinism and its evils.  My (then) pastor told me that when I read people like Spurgeon that he was evangelistic, and not a Calvinist (as claimed by many Calvinists on the FFF).  To keep this post short I'll get to the chase and tell you that there is much dis-information (though often well meaning) put out by IFBs desiring to protect their sheep. 

I tell you this so that you will keep an open mind, study original sources for yourself, and come to a conclusion based on a well reasoned and researched study of a matter.  Read both sides of an argument before making up your mind, and in the meantime, welcome aboard the FFF.

Spurgeon didn't know what he was. One minute he was a Calvinist and the next minute he's a something else. He certainly wasn't much like his mentor Gill.

 

[FSSL]

Spurgeon didn't know what he was. One minute he was a Calvinist and the next minute he's a something else. He certainly wasn't much like his mentor Gill.

Or... could it be that you don't know Spurgeon well?

 

[Izdaari]

.................. 

I tell you this so that you will keep an open mind, study original sources for yourself, and come to a conclusion based on a well reasoned and researched study of a matter.  Read both sides of an argument before making up your mind, and in the meantime, welcome aboard the FFF.

very good advice........

Yes, it is. And "both sides" of a matter is a lot wider than Calvinist vs. Arminian. There are several other sides to that too, including Molinist, Lutheran and some others. (On that particular issue, I happen to be Lutheran, btw.)

 

[praise_yeshua]

Spurgeon didn't know what he was. One minute he was a Calvinist and the next minute he's a something else. He certainly wasn't much like his mentor Gill.

Or... could it be that you don't know Spurgeon well?

To what do you refer?

I'm just going by what he said of himself!!!

We had better far be inconsistent with ourselves than with the inspired Word. I have been called an Arminian Calvinist or a Calvinist Arminian, and I am quite content so long as I can keep close to my Bible

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Spurgeon didn't know what he was. One minute he was a Calvinist and the next minute he's a something else. He certainly wasn't much like his mentor Gill.

Or... could it be that you don't know Spurgeon well?

To what do you refer?

I'm just going by what he said of himself!!!

We had better far be inconsistent with ourselves than with the inspired Word. I have been called an Arminian Calvinist or a Calvinist Arminian, and I am quite content so long as I can keep close to my Bible

That quote is about what people call him.  He's saying he doesn't care what he's called, it's the Bible that matters. 

What he actually said about what he believes is that Calvinism is the truth of the Gospel.  He never said that about Arminianism. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

Spurgeon didn't know what he was. One minute he was a Calvinist and the next minute he's a something else. He certainly wasn't much like his mentor Gill.

Or... could it be that you don't know Spurgeon well?

To what do you refer?

I'm just going by what he said of himself!!!

We had better far be inconsistent with ourselves than with the inspired Word. I have been called an Arminian Calvinist or a Calvinist Arminian, and I am quite content so long as I can keep close to my Bible

That quote is about what people call him.  He's saying he doesn't care what he's called, it's the Bible that matters. 

What he actually said about what he believes is that Calvinism is the truth of the Gospel.  He never said that about Arminianism.

He acknowledge that others said he wasn't a Calvinist.

Many people claims to be many different things. Their own claims should always be challenged. Spurgeon said plenty of things to make someone think he was at odds with Calvinism.

 

[Ransom]

I'm just going by what he said of himself!!!

We had better far be inconsistent with ourselves than with the inspired Word. I have been called an Arminian Calvinist or a Calvinist Arminian, and I am quite content so long as I can keep close to my Bible

"I have been called" doesn't mean "I call myself."  He is referring to what other people have said. His response is basically, "Meh, whatever."

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm just going by what he said of himself!!!

We had better far be inconsistent with ourselves than with the inspired Word. I have been called an Arminian Calvinist or a Calvinist Arminian, and I am quite content so long as I can keep close to my Bible

"I have been called" doesn't mean "I call myself."  He is referring to what other people have said. His response is basically, "Meh, whatever."

Meh... not so much!!

He was appealing to the truth of the Gospel by sacrificing Calvinism.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I'm just going by what he said of himself!!!

We had better far be inconsistent with ourselves than with the inspired Word. I have been called an Arminian Calvinist or a Calvinist Arminian, and I am quite content so long as I can keep close to my Bible

"I have been called" doesn't mean "I call myself."  He is referring to what other people have said. His response is basically, "Meh, whatever."

Meh... not so much!!

He was appealing to the truth of the Gospel by sacrificing Calvinism.

You're making it pretty clear why you have so much trouble interpreting the Bible. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

No Mater, ChristUndivided has shown he could read minds and tell Calvinist what they beleive though he has thoroughly shown, he doesn't have a full grasp of it.

 

[Ransom]

He was appealing to the truth of the Gospel by sacrificing Calvinism.

Except he wasn't sacrificing his Calvinism.

Don't worry. Maybe it was an "allusion."

 

[FSSL]

Perhaps he was referring to old staunch hyperCalvinists who tend to see an emphasis on evangelism as less than Calvinism.

You cannot read Spurgeon without coming to the conclusion that he was thoroughly Calvinistic. Just count the number of sermons he preached and how many of them were about the Doctrines of Grace.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Perhaps he was referring to old staunch hyperCalvinists who tend to see an emphasis on evangelism as less than Calvinism.

You cannot read Spurgeon without coming to the conclusion that he was thoroughly Calvinistic. Just count the number of sermons he preached and how many of them were about the Doctrines of Grace.

You Calvinists are such liars. The Doctrines of Grace have nothing to do with Calvinsim. They predate Calvinism and have nothing to do with that naive novice.

It's amazing. You take the Revelation of God and tie it to a man. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

You make connections where none exist. Don't disgrace the Doctrines of Grace by hitching them to a worthless man!

 

[praise_yeshua]

He was appealing to the truth of the Gospel by sacrificing Calvinism.

Except he wasn't sacrificing his Calvinism.

Don't worry. Maybe it was an "allusion."

Maybe you see it as an allegory?

It's clear that Spurgeon was distancing himself from Calvinism. He did what any minster of Gospel would do. He set his ultimate authority in the Gospel itself. Not some nuts ravings about it.

You can call yourself after Calvin all you want. He certainly has suckled you long enough he should be able to claim you!

 

[Bo]

[quote author=rsc2a]Actually, forget it...you don't even understand the basic argument.

We'll start simple...give me one example of any decision you have ever made that was not influenced by experience, physical ability, time, location, personal tastes, resources, the actions of others, or any other thing other than "I decide this".  (Actually, scratch that...if the only reason you randomly decide something is to prove that you can, your motive for the "random" decision is also based on outside factors.)

haha...your reaching now my friend.....

and I don't believe ur arms are long enuff

If I'm reaching so badly, you should easily be able to provide me just one example.
[/quote]

your asking me to give you an example of a decision I made that was not led by experience or any of these other things.....of course there are none....

you didn't ask me to tell you a decision I made that was not God dictated.....we aint God puppets buddy....no matter how much you wanna believe or preach we are.....we just aint....

if that was the case there would be no sin....God is perfect...in Him is no darkness.....if He forced all my decisions on me...then guess what...every sin I have ever done...He would have forced me to do...

that's ridiculous and completely unscriptural and extremely foolish