If God predestined everything, then why pray for your unsaved friends salvation?
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Tim said:
I actually have an answer for this, but it's not necessary. Where in the Bible does it say we should pray to get someone saved?
You are basically arguing for Hyper-Calvinsim. We share the Gospel because that is the method in which God uses to bring about His calling . (Romans 10:17)Tim said:
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The Rogue Tomato said:
It's implicit in 1 Tim. 2:1-4, when Paul writes to pray for kings and others in authority. Verse 4 only makes sense in context if salvation is one of the things that should be prayed for.
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Ransom said:
That's a good point, I hadn't considered that. I do pray for my friends to be saved. It is ultimately God's decision, and I acknowledge that. My prayers are meant to place me in alignment with God's will, not to change God's will on who to be saved. And that is also implied in 1 Tim 2:3.
The problem is like this one:
7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
God knows what we need before we ask, yet we are still encouraged to ask. Same with the salvation of others. God knows who he will save regardless of what we ask, yet we are still encouraged to ask.
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Tim said:
If God has predestined that a home run will be hit, why bother stepping up to bat?
Both the means and the end have been decreed. We pray for others' salvation because it is good and because we are told to, and if God has ordained someone to salvation, then he has also ordained the way that he will be brought to salvation - your prayers, meeting an evangelist, visiting a church, and so forth.
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Does not Luke 18, and the passage where "Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up," clearly teach that persistent prayer moves God?
"will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?"
"will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?"
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Tim said:
10 Brothers and sisters, my heart?s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.
This is not an instruction for us to pray to change God's mind about saving a friend. This is Paul's personal desire for his Israelite brothers. Even then, it's not an attempt to get God to change his mind about anything.
Jesus expressed his desire about something in prayer, too.
?My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me."
Followed by...
"Yet not as I will, but as you will."
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A.W. Pink devotes a chapter of The Sovereignty of God to prayer. Here are some (what I consider to be good) quotes. Text in [] braces are my additions to make up for the missing context.
To say that "God has ordained that human destinies may be changed and molded by the will [prayer] of man" is absolutely untrue. "Human destiny" is settled not by the will of man, but by the will of God. That which determines human destiny is whether or not a man has been born again, for it is written, "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." And as to whose will, whether God's or man's, is responsible for the new birth is settled, unequivocally, by John 1:13-"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD." To say that "human destiny" may be changed by the will of man is to make the creature's will supreme, and that is, virtually, to dethrone God. But what saith the Scriptures? Let the Book answer: "The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: He bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. The Lord maketh poor, and maketh rich: He bringeth low, and lifteth up. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory" (1 Sam. 2:6-8).
[that God's policy is shaped as the prayers are more numerous, more efficient.] If possible, this is even worse, and we have no hesitation in denominating it as blasphemy. In the first place, it flatly denies Ephesians 3:11 which speaks of God's having an "eternal purpose." If God's purpose is an eternal one then His "policy" is not being "shaped" today. In the second place, it contradicts Ephesians 1:11 which expressly declares that God "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will," therefore it follows that, "God's policy" is not being "shaped" by man's prayers. In the third place, such a statement as the above makes the will of the creature supreme, for if our prayers shape God's policy then is the Most High subordinate to worms of the earth. Well might the Holy Spirit ask through the Apostle, "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?" (Rom. 11:34).
Why should we pray? Condensed version: It is an act of worship. Prayer rebounds to God's glory. Prayer is a spiritual blessing. It is an act which is appointed and ordained by God.
First of all, we would say with emphasis, that prayer is not intended to change God's purpose, nor is it to move Him to form fresh purposes. God has decreed that certain events shall come to pass through the means He has appointed for their accomplishment. God has elected certain ones to be saved, but He has also decreed that these shall be saved through the preaching the Gospel. The Gospel, then, is one of the appointed means for the working out of the eternal counsel of the Lord; and prayer is another. [this is what Ransom was saying] God has decreed the means as well as the end, and among the means is prayer.
That prayers for the execution of the very things decreed by God are not meaningless is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Elijah knew that God was about to give rain, but that did not prevent him from at once betaking himself to prayer (James 5:17, 18). Daniel "understood" by the writings of the prophets that the captivity was to last but seventy years, yet when these seventy years were almost ended we are told that he set his face "unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes" (Dan. 9:2, 3). God told the prophet Jeremiah "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end"; but instead of adding, there is, therefore, no need for you to supplicate Me for these things, He said, "Then shall ye call upon Me, and ye shall go and pray unto Me, and I will hearken unto you" (Jer. 29:11, 12).
Here then is the design of prayer: not that God's will may be altered, but that it may be accomplished in His own good time and way. It is because God has promised certain things that we can ask for them with the full assurance of faith. It is God's purpose that His will shall be brought about by His own appointed means, and that He may do His people good upon His own terms, and that is, by the 'means' and 'terms' of entreaty and supplication. Did not the Son of God know for certain that after His death and resurrection He would be exalted by the Father. Assuredly He did. Yet we find Him asking for this very thing: "O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was" (John 17:5)! Did not He know that none of His people could perish? yet He besought the Father to "keep" them (John 17:11)!
Finally, it should be said that God's will is immutable, and cannot be altered by our cryings. When the mind of God is not toward a people to do them good, it cannot be turned to them by the most fervent and importunate prayer of those who have the greatest interest in Him: "Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before Me, yet My mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of My sight, and let them go forth" (Jer. 15:1). The prayers of Moses to enter the promised land is a parallel case.
The book is publicly available. Here is the chapter I'm talking about:
http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/index.html?mainframe=/books/pink/pink_sov_09.html
To say that "God has ordained that human destinies may be changed and molded by the will [prayer] of man" is absolutely untrue. "Human destiny" is settled not by the will of man, but by the will of God. That which determines human destiny is whether or not a man has been born again, for it is written, "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." And as to whose will, whether God's or man's, is responsible for the new birth is settled, unequivocally, by John 1:13-"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD." To say that "human destiny" may be changed by the will of man is to make the creature's will supreme, and that is, virtually, to dethrone God. But what saith the Scriptures? Let the Book answer: "The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: He bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. The Lord maketh poor, and maketh rich: He bringeth low, and lifteth up. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory" (1 Sam. 2:6-8).
[that God's policy is shaped as the prayers are more numerous, more efficient.] If possible, this is even worse, and we have no hesitation in denominating it as blasphemy. In the first place, it flatly denies Ephesians 3:11 which speaks of God's having an "eternal purpose." If God's purpose is an eternal one then His "policy" is not being "shaped" today. In the second place, it contradicts Ephesians 1:11 which expressly declares that God "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will," therefore it follows that, "God's policy" is not being "shaped" by man's prayers. In the third place, such a statement as the above makes the will of the creature supreme, for if our prayers shape God's policy then is the Most High subordinate to worms of the earth. Well might the Holy Spirit ask through the Apostle, "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?" (Rom. 11:34).
Why should we pray? Condensed version: It is an act of worship. Prayer rebounds to God's glory. Prayer is a spiritual blessing. It is an act which is appointed and ordained by God.
First of all, we would say with emphasis, that prayer is not intended to change God's purpose, nor is it to move Him to form fresh purposes. God has decreed that certain events shall come to pass through the means He has appointed for their accomplishment. God has elected certain ones to be saved, but He has also decreed that these shall be saved through the preaching the Gospel. The Gospel, then, is one of the appointed means for the working out of the eternal counsel of the Lord; and prayer is another. [this is what Ransom was saying] God has decreed the means as well as the end, and among the means is prayer.
That prayers for the execution of the very things decreed by God are not meaningless is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Elijah knew that God was about to give rain, but that did not prevent him from at once betaking himself to prayer (James 5:17, 18). Daniel "understood" by the writings of the prophets that the captivity was to last but seventy years, yet when these seventy years were almost ended we are told that he set his face "unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes" (Dan. 9:2, 3). God told the prophet Jeremiah "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end"; but instead of adding, there is, therefore, no need for you to supplicate Me for these things, He said, "Then shall ye call upon Me, and ye shall go and pray unto Me, and I will hearken unto you" (Jer. 29:11, 12).
Here then is the design of prayer: not that God's will may be altered, but that it may be accomplished in His own good time and way. It is because God has promised certain things that we can ask for them with the full assurance of faith. It is God's purpose that His will shall be brought about by His own appointed means, and that He may do His people good upon His own terms, and that is, by the 'means' and 'terms' of entreaty and supplication. Did not the Son of God know for certain that after His death and resurrection He would be exalted by the Father. Assuredly He did. Yet we find Him asking for this very thing: "O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was" (John 17:5)! Did not He know that none of His people could perish? yet He besought the Father to "keep" them (John 17:11)!
Finally, it should be said that God's will is immutable, and cannot be altered by our cryings. When the mind of God is not toward a people to do them good, it cannot be turned to them by the most fervent and importunate prayer of those who have the greatest interest in Him: "Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before Me, yet My mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of My sight, and let them go forth" (Jer. 15:1). The prayers of Moses to enter the promised land is a parallel case.
The book is publicly available. Here is the chapter I'm talking about:
http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/index.html?mainframe=/books/pink/pink_sov_09.html
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I also like his conclusion, which could easily be applied to the whole notion that the hinge and turning point of our salvation is our own personal decision:
In Jeremiah 10:23 we are told "It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (cf. Prov. 16:9); and yet in many of his prayers man impulse presumes to direct the Lord as to His way, and as to what He ought to do: even implying that if only he had the direction of the affairs of the world and of the church he would soon have things very different from what they are. This cannot be denied: for anyone with any spiritual discernment at all could not fail to detect this spirit in many of our modern prayer-meetings where the flesh holds sway. How slow we all are to learn the lesson that the haughty creature needs to be brought down to his knees and humbled into the dust. And this is where the very act of prayer is intended to put us. But man (in his usual perversity) turns the footstool into a throne from whence he would fain direct the Almighty as to what He ought to do! giving the onlooker the impression that if God had half the compassion that those who pray (?) have, all would quickly be right! Such is the arrogance of the old nature even in a child of God
In Jeremiah 10:23 we are told "It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (cf. Prov. 16:9); and yet in many of his prayers man impulse presumes to direct the Lord as to His way, and as to what He ought to do: even implying that if only he had the direction of the affairs of the world and of the church he would soon have things very different from what they are. This cannot be denied: for anyone with any spiritual discernment at all could not fail to detect this spirit in many of our modern prayer-meetings where the flesh holds sway. How slow we all are to learn the lesson that the haughty creature needs to be brought down to his knees and humbled into the dust. And this is where the very act of prayer is intended to put us. But man (in his usual perversity) turns the footstool into a throne from whence he would fain direct the Almighty as to what He ought to do! giving the onlooker the impression that if God had half the compassion that those who pray (?) have, all would quickly be right! Such is the arrogance of the old nature even in a child of God
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Tim said:
No, the point is that we should pray persistently because God, unlike the unjust judge who gives the widow what she wants to make her go away, loves his people and wants to give them the justice they ask him for.
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The Lord's prayer is good instruction for what prayer is about.
Our Father in heaven,
This frames the prayer in two respects. First, it's about the Father. Second it's not about I/ME/MY, he is OUR Father.
Hallowed be Your name.
Glory to God.
10 Your kingdom come.
Alignment with God's will -- God's kingdom will come whether we ask for it or not.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Alignment with God's will
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Again, asking for what we will already get -- our daily bread
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
Acknowledgement of what we need, and our duty to others
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
Again, alignment with God's will. We already know God will not lead us into temptation.
But deliver us from the evil one.
Again, alignment: We know God will deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
Some mss don't have the above, but it's still just an acknowledgement of God's sovereignty and glory.
Our Father in heaven,
This frames the prayer in two respects. First, it's about the Father. Second it's not about I/ME/MY, he is OUR Father.
Hallowed be Your name.
Glory to God.
10 Your kingdom come.
Alignment with God's will -- God's kingdom will come whether we ask for it or not.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Alignment with God's will
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Again, asking for what we will already get -- our daily bread
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
Acknowledgement of what we need, and our duty to others
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
Again, alignment with God's will. We already know God will not lead us into temptation.
But deliver us from the evil one.
Again, alignment: We know God will deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
Some mss don't have the above, but it's still just an acknowledgement of God's sovereignty and glory.